Pathwaytofree

I've had three women I have met/started to work with, who right from the start or extremely early on, tell me they are suicidal, or that they recently tried to kill themselves or wanted to kill themselves.

How common is this?

Where do we draw the line between helping to guide an alcoholic through the steps and the big book, and helping them when they are in mental crises?

I think I handled it okay, but I am rather new to sponsoring and this isn't what I thought it would be about. So I'd love to hear feedback, constructive criticism, suggestions, personal experience, etc.

I thought I'd be helping people who were trying not to drink, to get sober and recover. I didn't think I'd be dealing with people who unfortunately suffer from mentally illness beyond alcoholism.

WOMAN #1:
1) I worked with her for a while. I allowed her to vent, as I tried to help her change her thinking and show her a new perspective. She was working on her 4th step, but stopped when it was time to look at herself.

When I tried to set boundaries regarding her calls, texts, and venting, she got suicidal. I spent a couple of hours trying to tell her that God loves her, that's not God's will for her, etc.

We were going to meet up for coffee before the next AA meeting, to get her back on track with her step work. She no-showed, didn't answer my calls or texts, fizzled out, and I haven't seen her since. I was so worried about her. She didn't return any future texts or calls. I've since heard that she's okay, goes to other AA meetings, and she's taking women through the steps. (I don't know how she can, but that's not my business.)

WOMAN #2:
A recovery friend of a friend fairly new in program texted me to say that she gave my name and number to someone who is "a complete mess", and needs help. (I set a boundary and asked her to not give my name and number out without my permission. )

The woman contacted me, and at first she seemed to be very willing to admit she was an alcoholic, needed help, and wanted to go through the steps with me. I gave her the first set of step instructions and told her to call me when she was done.

Instead, she texted me to vent about how she was feeling. She told me she tried to kill herself the week before. She was currently in IOP. She still wanted to kill herself. I asked her if she told the IOP people. She said she didn't, but that she would. I have no idea if she did or not. I didn't believe anything she said to me.

When she contacted me again, I asked her if she followed my first step of step instructions. She said she hadn't, forgot what I said, and asked for them again. Again she vent-texted me full of really bad self-pity. I told her "I was sorry to hear that." Then I asked her to only contact me for step work, that my role is to help her recover from alcoholism. I said that I'm not a therapist or a mental health professional. I haven't heard from her again.

WOMAN #3:
She told me she had good recovery, but had a recent slip when her mother died. She said she wanted to go through the steps again to get a deeper understanding and a new experience. I've only seen her 2-3 times at meetings, but anytime she talked to me at the meetings, or on texts, she vented like crazy about her ex-boyfriend. I've never heard anyone talk about an ex-boyfriend like she had. She admitted she is obsessed with him and she obsessively thinks about him.

She otherwise seemed very put together and serene. I thought this was a woman who just had some resentments that she couldn't let go of, and was grieving the loss of her mother.

I gently suggested a few times, when I noticed she wasn't doing the reading from the big book I gave her, that she do a written 10th/11th step on her ex-boyfriend. She didn't know how to do it, yet she said she'd been thru the steps already. That didn't make sense. So then I said, how about we do a 4th step just on the resentments you still have?

When I met up with her to show her how I did my 4th step, and to look at how she did hers previously, she was a completely different person. It was like day to night. I had no idea what happened. I didn't even recognize her. Someone took me aside and said she knows her from other meetings, and that she has mental illness in addition to alcoholism. She said I cannot help her, that she needs to probably be hospitalized or something.

Later that night, she texted me to say she wanted to kill herself. I think I handled it correctly--I stayed calm, I think I asked the right questions, told her exactly what to do (Family member near by? Doctor? Therapist? Psychiatrist? Call 911; Suicide hotline; Local Crisis Center.)

Once she got thru to her psychiatrist and told her what was going on, she continued to vent to me about her ex-boyfriend. I gently but firmly told her I am not a mental health professional and I cannot help her with this. She got angry at me.

This stuff is way above being a sponsor, isn't it? My role is to carry the message and connect the person to their conception of a Higher Power. I have zero training in the mental health profession.

How do you all set boundaries/limits before even starting with someone?

What is the best way to help women in AA who are suicidal or those with mental illness in addition to alcoholism?

paulokes

If someone were feeling actively suicidal or in Mental health crisis I would absolutely suggest they sought medical help with that immediately. Step work and sponsorship would come secondary to that.

The book tell us it is often imperative a "man's" brain be cleared before we approach. IMO that counts equally for mental health as it does for intoxication.

Sounds as is you've had a tough spell with these women. I hope they're all OK and that you are too.

P

sugarbear1

What does your sponsor say about this?

awuh1

All we can do is try to be as helpful as we can be. People need professional help when they are experiencing suicidal thoughts. A sponsors role should be to provide support and to help them to get that professional help.

Tommyh

someone should call the cops and report that suicide talk and let them round the girls up and put them in a hospital under lock down
anytime they are a danger to themselves or someone else they need to go to the hospital,whether willing or not

I don`t think you can help any of those 3 from my experience with sponsees
I had 2 sponses kill themselves before,they would not even start on the steps either
I am a alcoholic,not trained to notice stuff like that unless they mention it

Gottalife

Perhaps begin by reading "Working With Others". Putting that into effect may involve discarding previous advice from your sponsor. There are a lot of sponsors out there giving misinformation, especially on this topic.

People come to AA for all sorts of reasons. Some are actually alcoholics wanting to recover. So the first thing (P92), qualify your prospect. Make sure she is a real alcoholic. If she isn't, try to help her find appropriate help for whatever it is that her real problem is, then move on.

If she is a real alcholic, is she willing to go to any lengths to recover? I have heard it suggested that you have her write down that commitment in the front of her big book, so you can refer back to that if she begins to balk at some of the steps.

Then lay out your ground rules and stick to them. Keep in mind that if your prospect does not respond at once, seek out another one. Don't waste time chasing, as you may spoil a later opportunity, and you may deprive someone more willing of the help they need now.

In this modern age, I will also have a chat about medication. There are a lot of people in AA who take mind altering medications, and a lot less who actually need them. I am not going to tell them what to do in this regard, other than to have an honest chat with their doctor, but I have noticed two things about medications of this type. Firstly, suicidal thoughts can be a side effect and medication often seems to be in the background when suicides occur. Secondly, any mind altering substance, legal or not, taken for the wrong reasons, can be a spiritual block. I have never had any success with individuals popping pills by their own choice, as opposed to treating a serious mental health issue.

A couple of years back I had to call the cops on a fellow who had done himself a lot of damage. He left rehab and hit the bottle. The first thing to go out the window was his SSRI pills. Exactly what I would have done had I picked up. But you cant do that with these pills, it is extremely dangerous.

When I found him he had cut both wrists, and the sole of one foot was being held on by his sandle. He was psychotic and in an awful mess, in a far worse state than just a drunk. He was a big guy too, more than I could handle. The only option was to have him locked up for his own safety.

So, I wouldnt be just taking a sponsee on at face value. We will have a talk first.

Berrybean

I wanted to die for a while when I was sober but not working the program. I now refer to that stage as when I received the gift of desperation. Frankly, I would never have asked some one to sponsor me or done the step work unless I was that desperate. My desperation made me willing to listen to what my sponsor told me to do and DO it.

Saying that though, although I wanted to die, I was not going to kill myself. Not at that stage anyway. But I think if I'm ever in that situation where I get a call or text saying they are going to kill themselves I would have no qualms about contacting the emergency services and giving them the details so they can handle it. If it turns out to be a bluff then it's on the sponsees head, and I wouldn't work with them afterwards. If there isn't honesty there then it's not going to work anyway. If it is a genuine cry for help then they'd get it.

I do know a few people who made genuine attempts on their life in AA and failed. My sponsor being one of them back in her early sobriety. None of them to my knowledge contacted their sponsor just before doing it. It's very sad that this disease brings people so low.

BB

Ken33xx

My feeling is medication in general is overprescribed in the U.S. and I suspect the same is true in AA. However, this is between the individual and their doctor.

Now, I have seen my share of unstable AA members over the years but suicidal?

No.

Can't say I've heard about too many members actually killing themselves.

Pathwaytofree

Woman #2 and woman #3 had no desperation to work the program of recovery. Their only desperation was to tell me about all of their drama and why they wanted to kill themselves. I listened, I tried to help them see things the way we do when practicing the principles of the 12 steps. They were both unable to even process what I was saying. I felt like we were having parallel conversations or something.

Your experience sounds much different, BB.

We are sponsors, not mental health professionals. I can lead them to God and help them recover from alcoholism. It is not up to me to determine the difference between suicidal thoughts and a suicidal person.

None of these three women were honest with me, really.

I think woman #1 was bluffing. And woman #2 and #3 were cry for helps. I told them what to do (call therapist, family member, psychiatrist, doctor, crisis center, suicide hotline, 911) and that's all I could do. Woman #3 refused to give me her address.

I do too. It's not uncommon. But that's what therapists, psychiatrists, and doctors are for. And as Tommyh said, hospitals. Sponsors cannot determine if a person is truly suicidal and a risk to themselves. Nor can we keep a suicidal person safe. Our role is to carry the message and guide the sponsee through the steps so that they can have a spiritual awakening and recover from alcoholism.

Pathwaytofree

I agree with your opinion Ken, and yes this is an outside issue.

I'm surprised. I wonder if it's due to a difference in gender or something statistical like that.

Pathwaytofree

Excellent point. These women did qualify. Either they weren't honest with me, or they were alcoholics and had additional mental health issues.

I never heard this before. Great suggestion!

Woman #1 kept testing the boundaries, that's on me. Woman #2 and #3, started with the suicidal speaking right from the start, so there wasn't even any time to set down boundaries. However, I did make it clear that my only role is to take them through the step work.

That is a really good idea. Woman #1 lied to me about drugs/meds. I found out from friends in AA. She purposely picked someone like me who didn't have a drug addiction to work with. I knew something was up, but I didn't call her out on it. I just observed and kept it in the back of my mind. I'm going to ask upfront for now on.

That's an excellent point to bring up. That's why it's important to know if somone's on meds so if suicidal thoughts do occur, their doctor can determine if it's side effects from the meds or if the person is in possible danger to themselves.

Can you elaborate about this? Do you mean someone taking meds like an SSRI or xanax under the care of a doctor, vs. someone abusing that sort of thing? Or do you find in general that anyone on any sort of psychiatric medication is spiritually blocked? I knew someone who was making progress with her step work, but her sponsor fired her when she found out she was smoking weed every night to get to sleep.

That is so sad!! There needs to be a black box on those bottles to never stop taking those meds cold turkey!!!

Thanks for the excellent suggestions.

tomsteve

i think what is being referred to-popping pills by their own choice- is people who arent honest with their doctors and are on medications for the effect and NOT the effect of treating a mental or emotional problem.

heres a few lines from the BB i have to remeber from time to time:

Do not be discouraged if your prospect does not respond at once. Search out another alcoholic and try again. You are sure to find someone desperate enough to accept with eagerness what you offer. We find it a waste of time to keep chasing a man who cannot or will not work with you. If you leave such a person alone, he may soon become convinced that he cannot recover by himself. To spend too much time on any one situation is to deny some other alcoholic an opportunity to live and be happy. One of our Fellowship failed entirely with his first half dozen prospects. He often says that if he had continued to work on them, he might have deprived many others, who have since recovered, of their chance.

imo, it is a duty as a sponsor that if someone says to me they are suicidal to find them help because i am NOT qualified to help that.

how common is people wanting to kill themselves? idk, but i know when i came into AA i was suicidal. that doesnt mean i wanted to die. i just didnt want to keep living like i was.i hated what i had become.

Pathwaytofree

Thanks tomsteve Woman #1 was definitely doing that and I believe she was fired from a previous sponsor for abusing a prescription drug from a psychiatrist instead of using it as directed.

heres a few lines from the BB i have to remeber from time to time:

Thanks Tomsteve. I definitely spent too much time with Woman #1.

Yup! I agree and that's what I clearly told them. It's not my fault if that got them angry. They were wanting me to solve their problems or be there as a sounding board or something or do something to get them out of being suicidal. I can't do that.

I think most of us were. My sponsor told us that a lot of us had suicide attempts. I know there's a difference between being suicidal and actually wanting to commit suicide. But it's not our jobs to figure that out. Leave that to the professionals, like Tommyh said.

In my gut I felt that especially since Woman #2 and Woman #3 were way too early out of their suicide attempts and hospitalizations, that I could not help them and they still needed mental health help. I think Woman #1 was using feeling suicidal as a way to manipulate me. I referred her back to her therapist who she had a history of firing and then going back to.

I guess I wrongly assumed if an alcoholic was willing and ready to approach someone to ask them to take them through the big book, that they were going to just go through the big book, and not look to the sponsor as someone to solve their mental illnesses.

When part of my step work was making me feel suicidal, my sponsor referred me to my therapist. He assertively told me I was getting too obsessed with my step 4 and was reliving old memories, and that wasn't the way to do it. He helped me change the way I was thinking about step 4, and I stopped feeling suicidal. I hardly even talked to my sponsor about my past suicide attempt because it was too painful to discuss. I just said it factually, she told me about hers, said it wasn't uncommon in the rooms, and that was that.

But was I suicidal when I reached my final spiritual bottom that made me finally surrender 100% and do the steps my sponsor's way and not my way? I'm not sure how I'd explain it. I think a lot of us are at that "jumping off point" when we come into AA. I think it's mentioned in The Doctor's Opinion if I remember correctly. Did I have a suicidal plan this time and a sense of peace at the thought of the relief of being out of pain? No. It was more like "I can't live this way anymore but I want to live, and I will do whatever I am told to do this time, no questions asked."

These women didn't seem to have that willingness. It's not my job to make them more willing. It's just my role to take them through the steps and guide them to a spiritual awakening and God. And to pray for them.

Reprieve

Holy cow, what a lot of suicidal people. Like others have said above, we are just regular people not miracle workers or therapists. God knows I have people all the time who think I am a kind of therapist just because I listen and am friendly. I will listen - within reason, and be friendly but each of us has to solve their own problems themself.

I have spent alot of money on my own counseling and by all means, if others want to spend their hard earned resources on the same thing they can. But I did not go to therapy to help you - I went to help myself. Big difference. Go and heal yourself, is my thought and I tell people that.

The biggest tip off to an endless pool of "help me!" is that no matter how much you listen or how many suggestions/ideas/comments you might make they are never enough. Sometimes, people will even get angry at you - ok, so then stop crying to me.

It is not our job to help the helpless - and I say that as someone who has had many of these people following me and I finally had to just stop and let them go. We don't do anyone any favors by enabling their dysfunction, they need to take care of themselves in whatever way they need to. That's part of a good recovery. No one owes me anything, and we have to take care of ourselves - that's the goal. My phone is very quiet now, just a few good friends. : )

Pathwaytofree

Thank you, Reprieve. This was unexpected. I am also friendly and will listen, but I won't give advice or be someone's therapist.

That is such a good point. Woman #2 and #3 claimed they couldn't afford therapy. Yet Woman #3 seemed to be spending money on other things, by the way she dressed, etc. I guess I need to be more aware of women looking for free therapy from AA or sponsors, instead of step work.

Yup, this happened with Woman #1. And Woman #3 got angry at me. Woman #2 got childishly bitchy at the end. I haven't heard from either of them since I reminded them of my role as a sponsor.

As much as I want to help them, I know I am not equipped to do so. I wonder where they get the idea in the first place that lay people in AA can help them when they're suicidal?

tomsteve

although i thought i was a miracle worker and therapist when i was drinkin.

tomsteve

pathway, heres something i do when someone asks me to sponsor them:
i make some time to have a talk with them. share a little about what i used to be like, what happened, and what im like now. try and read their body language a bit to see if theyve been responsive and interested.
then i ask some question:
- are you willing to go to any lengths for victory over alcohol?
-are ya willing to put in the footwork?
-do you want what we have?
-do you know what it is that we have?
- why me?
ive had quite a few different replies to those questions,with one main theme- most dont know what it is we have-yet.
so i suggest reading the first 164 pages of the BB a few times and see if they like the results that can come from working the steps.
theres been a few times the reply was something to the effect,"i just want someone to talk to." those ones i do my best to politely explain that i used to want that,too. thats what id go to the bar for and thats not what sponsorship is about. quite often when i mention the duty as me as a sponsor is to guide them through the steps so they can find a HP that can help them solve their problems( and i suck like a kirby at being a HP).....welp, that doesnt get received too good for some reason.

IF a potential sponsee reads the book, likes what the program has to offer, and is willing to put in the footwork, i proceed- with one MAJOR criteria-
i put absolutely no expectations on a sponsee.

imo, the way we learn to be sponsors is through experience- practicing. i think the 12th step uses that word,"practice" because someone knew we are just humans being, will make mistakes, and need those mistakes to do some learning.
i took some hard,hard knocks for some time being a sponsor. sometimes it was a wee bit of ego inflation thinking i could save everyone. sometimes is was a wee bit of ego inflation thinkin i could carry the message better than past sponsors. sometimes it was a wee bit of ego inflation thinkin i could help someone solve their mental problems.even my sponsor was TRYING to get it through my thick head i cant save everyone. my sponsor had even mentioned a time or 2 i would be wasting my time trying to sponsor_________ as he had already burned through a lot of sponsors over the years or he knew they werent read( amazing how sponsors can seem to have a little bit of wisdom).
everyone is free to add character defects they think were glaring here.

then i got some of what i needed to get sober- humility. humility is teachability.
thats when i started asking questions of potential sponsees.

Pathwaytofree

LOL!!! Same here! I so needed a humor break. Thanks Tomsteve!

Pathwaytofree

Tomsteve, thank you. It was like this with my sponsor. I wasn't suicidal when I asked her to work with me, but I was at an extremely low spiritual bottom and was willing to do anything to get well. Maybe that's why these women, especially 2 and 3, threw me for a loop.

That is a really good thing to point out. I've told them I can help them recover from alcoholism. But I don't think they had any clue what that even meant. Maybe they thought talking about their problems and me telling them what to do would be what helped. Maybe they thought if I helped them understand their problem, that'd help. I see now that I should've made it clear from the get-go what I did, and what I was going to help them do.

Neither of them ever read. I got all kinds of excuses. At least people were honest with you when they said they just wanted someone to talk to. I'm willing to do that, IF they're willing to take the steps and do the work. I like your comment about that's what we went to the bar for--good one. [aka poor me, poor me, pour me another....]

LOL! Another great point that WE are not their higher powers. I can't recall if my sponsor brought up God right away. I think she did when we met to go over the book. But at least I was willing to read it, even though I stopped and started...

That's a really good tactic. That way, we leave it in God's hands, not ours. It's not our responsibility to keep tabs on them if they're reading or writing or praying.

That was very helpful to read. :-) I've been the type who tries once, fails, and gives up feeling like a failure. I like that you pointed out the word "practice".
I really appreciate your sharing your humility and introspection here. Everything is a live-and-learn process, isn't it? I used to be in ego and think I could save others, but I know I can't. And if I thought I could save suicidal sponsees, that would be coming from ego and not from God. I learned this from a friend's first sponsor/sponsee experience who was losing sleep worrying about a sponsee. Then her sponsor yelled at her and firmly told her that her sponsee's life was not her responsibility. We carry the message, that's it. We don't have the power to save someone's life, only God does.

LOL your self-awareness makes me laugh!!!! It's refreshing to see your sense of humor in it all. If we can't laugh at our silly little egos, what CAN we laugh at, right?

Thank you so much for the very helpful suggestions and sharing your humbling and humorous experience, Tomsteve!!

paulokes

Reading this thread reminds me of the other thread...about "Private meetings". There are some potential "sponsees" who want someone to vent to and someone to tell them what to do...in each specific situation. There are some sponsors who want someone to call every night to vent...and ask what they should do in each specific situation.

Two parties in this equation...two as sick as each other. One who isn't prepared to accept the genuine solution...and one who isn't prepared to give it. They fill a whole in each others lives for a time I guess. I don't have to play either of these roles today and I can't be tricked into the role of saviour by someone who isn't ready to stand on their own two feet

P