awuh1

Thanks cairn, you've cleared that up now. No further action needed.

Regarding the attempt to remove the words 'powerless' and 'unmanageable' from the first step. I think there is something obvious about "how it works" which is often missed. The word "we" is stated or implied for each one of the steps, and the word "we" refers to the first 100 members of AA.

The steps are suggestions, but as presented in "how it works" they are also statements of historical fact.

Gottalife

""What do I have to do?" It is the purpose of this book to answer such questions specifically. We shall tell you what we have done."

This factual historic approach has worked a lot better than "We will tell you what to do" would have done. Not only does it sidestep the alcoholic ego, but it conveys a message about leading by example.

Gottalife

Cairn, do you happen to know the wording of the new step one?

August252015

I found this about Hank Parkhurst to be very interesting -

A.A. History - Hank Parkhurst - New York's AA #2

cairn

Oh there's of course no way it will get changed, and i didn't get a chance to find out what these guys wanted that would suit them better, but i will for sure ask next time i bump into.

Stevie - not sure what you're asking for, but if it's more of my imagined conversations i could fill this whole website...

stevieg46

I am reading at present Dr Bob And The Good Old Timers . 1980

Lots of historical facts .. I never knew that Dr Bob had been attending the Oxford Group for about two and a half years before meeting Bill W , he was never successfully sober through the Oxford Group for any length of time The Oxford Groups guidelines were made up of various principles designed to bring on a''Conversion'' religious in nature.
Oxford Guidelines .

4 Absolutes , Absolute Honesty , Absolute Purity , Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Love.

5 Cs Confidence. Conviction . Confession. Conviction . Conversion .

5 Procedures . Give into God . Listen to God Direction . Check Guidance . Restitution . And Sharing Witness & Confession .

Slogans . Study Men not Books . Win your arguments ? lose your man . Give News not Views . Oxford Groupers would go around gatherings enthusiastically asking each '' Are You Maximum ''

There were some Steps at that time , Complete Surrender , Inventory. Admission of Character Defects . Making Restitution . and two more ? think .

They held meetings prayed , gave testimonies studied the Bible Sermon on the Mount , and the Book of James in particular , funny enough the Oxfords love of the Book of James led to those that had got sober through Bill and Bobs message of the Oxford principles nearly resulted in the fellowship being called ''The James Group '' by those with a great infinity with the book

Frank Buchmam a Lutheran Minister started in 1901. First Century Christian Fellowship. 20 Years later he changed the name in 1921, to The Oxford Group Movement . In 1939 he changed the name to Moral Rearmament . Frank Buchman in later years never felt comfortable with AA members .

Dr Bob 's involvement with the Oxford was at his wife Anne's insistence, never stopped him drinking , if anything it changed his pattern from drinking everyday to maybe once or twice every two to three weeks .

On meeting for the first time with Bill W , Dr Bob had been on a bender and when his wife Anne got the call he was quite drunk and Bob insisted he did not want to see anyone , anyhow after a while he relented on the condition, that he would meet for'' 15 minutes'' that 's all no more . Their first meeting lasted for over'' 5 hours'' .

Bob said later that if William James , Carl Jung , Dr Silkworth , or Frank Buchman and all the other Oxfords had done the talking ''it would have been a lecture '' and that Bill Wilson was the first human being to talk my language , Bob also said that before, he was one of these '' that want to -want to stop guys '' .Bill W interestingly for the first time took Dr Silkworth's advice about ''stop preaching to them '' and proved ''successful

Dr Bob had one more bender which lasted 3-4 days or so he went to some Medical Convention that he had always attended , his wife Ann was against him going , but Bill W encouraged him to go , explaining that the sooner we go places and mix with crowds where alcohol was available the better (words to that affect ) Bob went missing got very drunk got back home in a very very bad state and it took 3 days to get him tapered off . Dr Bob got a call to perform a very awkward operation and Ann tried to postpone , Bob insisted he would be alright , he still had the shakes , a couple of drinks to stop the shakes and they set off in the car , Bill W gave Dr Bob one bottle of beer before entering the hospital , Bob noticed his hands had stopped shaking . He went ahead and successfully performed the operation . That was to be Robert Holbrook Smith 's last drink on June 10th 1935 , could say Alcoholics Anonymous was born

Bill and Bob's crowd of sober members grew, they held meetings in houses wherever available sharing experiences , praying , much like the pattern from Oxfords , and plans for a publication for the Book that would be Known as Alcoholics Anonymous began .

Personal observation, adapted 6 Steps from the Oxfords, Bill later wrote another 6 of the now 12 .

So in 1939 when the Book as published claiming ''WE are a hundred of men and women that have recovered from a hopeless state of mind and body '' and in Chapter 5 where it say in How it Works at the end of the paragraph '' Here are the steps we took that are suggested as a program of recovery ''.

So technically, are the steps we took, and the recovered members who got sober,, are they mainly down to principles inherited from the Oxford Group ?, I am only quarter way through the book but seeing it is in my mind I felt I would share it .

Personally this does not bother me in any way as I am eternally grateful to be recovered today no matter where the directions came from AA and the Oxfords and God as I understand today , one thing for sure no matter what to my mind the Big Book''Is Divinely Inspired'' .

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006

stevieg46

NB 4TH Edition , Page 263 He sold himself short .

1937 .

6 Steps . 1 . Complete Deflation . 2 . Dependence and Guidance from a Higher Power . 3 . Moral Inventory . 4 . Confession 5 . Restitution 6 . Continued work with other alcoholics .

Stevie

Algorithm

The term "Higher Power" appears in Oxford Group literature. It was used in the book I was a Pagan by Victor C. Kitchen (1934), for example, early on in Chapter 9.

V. C. Kitchen was in the Oxford Group with Bill Wilson at the same time, and they were friends.

Yes. I did not understand what I saw in AA, or in the literature, until I looked at how the Oxford Group operated. I was typing up this list of books, most of which Dr. Bob owned, as part of a response to another thread on AA and religion.

1. What is the Oxford Group?, by A Layman with a Notebook

('Big Book' of the Oxford Group, essentially a primer for the OG. A good introduction to the Four Absolutes, Quiet Time, and other Oxford Group practices. Much AA language is borrowed from this book, and Hazelden now publishes a re-print.)

2. Soul Surgery by Howard Walter

(This book informed the practices of the Oxford Group. A concise manual for personal evangelism. Soul Surgery is basically the Oxford Group version of AA's "Working With Others" chapter.)

3. I Was a Pagan, by V.C. Kitchen

(Personal narrative and description of the Group by an alcoholic member. The "Higher Power" is mentioned here, as is the "design for living", and other language that Bill later borrowed for the AA book.)

4. Philosophy of Courage by Philip Leon

(A careful, systematic explanation of the Group’s practices and beliefs by a philosopher. Includes an excellent introduction by AA Historian Glenn Chesnut.)

5. When Man Listens by Cecil Rose

When Man Listens has often been referred to as a simple version of the AA Book. This predates the BB, but there are certainly lots of similarities, such as the inventory idea, and God being the director. From the intro:

6. For Sinners Only by Arthur J. Russell

(This was very common reading, characterized as the Oxford Group bible. Covers the nuts and bolts of OG principles, discusses Frank Buchman and Samuel Shoemaker.)

7. One Thing I Know by Arthur J. Russell

Follow-up to "For Sinners Only", written to underline his sincere desire for Christian Unity.

8. Twice Born Men by Harold Begbie

Written before the Oxford Group, but very popular in the Oxford Group and early AA. It set the stage for the many stories in the OG about conversions, new birth, and life change. This was often called "sharing", a convention which AA adopted.

9. More Twice Born Men: Narratives Of A Recent Movement In The Spirit Of Personal Religion by Harold Begbie

One of the earliest books written about Oxford Group founder, Frank Buchman, and the OG program. It was widely read in the OG, and in early AA.

10. He That Cometh by Geoffrey Allen

Lays out some important Oxford Group ideas about coming from lonely individualism into deep fellowship of common need and common obedience.

tomsteve

reading something of aa history that im glad was changed and makes me laugh today is the original manuscript of the big book. used the word "you" quite often. heres one example:

That you are alcoholic and cannot manage your own life.

and the wording was more like demands than suggestions like
If you are not convinced on these vital issues, you ought to re-read the book to this point or else throw it away!

but idk- maybe im lookin further back- back to when i was a serious not it all egomaniac who couldnt be told crap.
when i got into aa i was quite miserable, so maybe i would have been responsive to the way it was written, but i could see that after the fog wearin off, dry drunk know it all egomaniac me woulda come to life.

very greatful someone thought something like," maybe we should send the manuscript out here and there and get some opinions before publishing."

even that- alcoholics actually wanting opinions from others!?!?!?

tomsteve

august, i know yer post was a bit ago, but have you seen silkworth.net? there is some awesome history there and little bios on people from the personal stories in the big book

Dave42001

Great post, I'm glad it re surfaced!! I love reading about the history of AA, can't get enough of it!!

paulokes

Great thread!

Personally I have enjoyed "Pass It On" and some of the other writings that shed light on Bill Ws own personality and character even before drink took hold.

The first chapter of Pass It On is about Bills early family life and adolescence. It always struck me that his own recollection of himself is as an awkward and slightly less-than-accepted character. Others remember him as a popular and successful classmate. Even some of his own writings to his mother at the time speak of someone who is doing well and finding success as a growing adolescent.

Reminds me that this can be an illness of perception ... long before Alcohol itself become a factor.

P

fini

Algorithm, your wealth and throughness and range of knowledge continues to amaze me....you'd /i'd think i would be used to it by now, but no.

thanks for your continued sharing in so many paces on these forums. So useful and interesting.

dsmaxis10

That Bill W ruthlessly faced his sins and never drank again, Why don't you choose your own conception of God .That Bill W had the barn burner experience and still found him self in a bar craving alcohol made a phone call the rest is history.

PhoenixJ

apart from the at times archaic language- the stories could have been written yesterday.

tomsteve

true about the archaic, but so is the majority of literary writings

Centered3

This is such a fantastic thread!! I'm enjoying the posts so much. :-)

The things in AA's history that I find most interesting are:
1) that the book titled Alcoholics Anonymous was started before the meetings, Alcoholics Anonymous.

2) That between 1935-1939, Dr. Bob and his wife and others held bible studies. They didn't talk about their problems and drama. They were heavily influenced by: (a) 1st Corinthians 13, (b) Sermon on the Mount, (c) The Book of James. These were the things they read and discussed to grow spiritually.

3) That between 1935-1939, Bill W. did the Six Steps of the Oxford Group, which as Stevie posted are in the big book on page 263 in the 4th edition. The first 100 did these six steps, got their spiritual awakening, and then wrote the big book. That's why the steps are listed in the past tense. I think the reason there are 12 steps and not 6 is just that Bill W wanted to separate them out and make them more clear.

4) I really enjoyed reading "Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers".

5) I also was fascinated to read one of the posts on this thread about "God of your own understanding" because I know I fought the God stuff for over a decade. And the fact that more than half of the original 100 were atheists, too, was fascinating to me how they got around that all in the wording of the book. Only an alcoholic could know how to word a book meant for other alcoholics!

Here's what I don't understand. Why, how, and when contemporary AA turned into:
1) "don't drink, go to meetings and share your problems"
2) "don't worry about the steps or the big book"
3) "90 meetings in 90 days"
4) talking about problems instead of focusing on the solution (inventory + amends as outlined in the big book = spiritual experience and recovered

What had the most influence on me personally:
(1) The way the big book describes throughout the way they viewed the disease of alcoholism, God, and the solution.
(2) The paragraph in the book that describes God as "a loving friend"
(3) The Doctor's Opinion. Each time I read it, it becomes clearer.
(4) Finding an AA meeting that truly does it the way AA was meant to be done.

Thank you for this thread! :-)

Algorithm

You may be interested in the following book as a complement to Oldtimers.

How It Worked: The Story of Clarence H. Snyder and the Early Days of Alcoholics Anonymous in Cleveland, Ohio by Mitchell K.

How It Worked by Mitchell K. (PDF Version)

awuh1

Thanks all for dusting off this old thread and for your recent contributions.

I was reminded of some advice I came across long ago. Someone said 'in order to understand something deeply you should study its origins'. In this regard I found it useful to look at the first link in the chain of events that started AA. This first link involved the Swiss physician and psychologist Carl Jung. In Bills first letter to Jung he said "As you will now clearly see, this astonishing chain of events (referring to the origin of AA) actually started long ago in your consulting room, and it was directly founded upon your own humility and deep perception".

IMO Jungs letter to Bill is one of the great treasures of AA history. A.A. History -- Dr. Carl Jung's Letter To Bill Wilson, Jan 30, 1961

Centered3

Thank you Algo!! I will definitely check this out. :-)