Psychic Change .
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Psychic Change .
Doctors Opinion talks about an entire psychic change .
For quite a while I viewed that akin to a spiritual experience , but lately I have altered my way of looking at it .
Considering the language in the Big Book I assume Dr Silkworth was familiar with the term spiritual experience and spiritual awakening in 1939 .
Way I see it today is simply ''when the penny finally drops '' I cannot do this anymore and I keep making a total mess of my life with my way of doing things , a complete surrender .Throwing in the towel .
Is that when the new guy/gal is ready to take certain steps ?.
Working with others suggests gaining a newcomers confidence and once having done so you lay out the spiritual path as soon as possible and leaving them with a copy of the Big Book say for a while , going back and finding out what the newcomer is prepared to do (more or less ) . I assume the logic ? is for them to go through Doctors Opinion through to How it Works and after and for one to find out if the newcomer is ready to take certain steps , throwing in the towel ? has the penny dropped ? taking into account the 3 pertinent ideas .
Back to newcomer reading Dr Opinion say at Big Book discussion and surrender's and throws in the towel isn't that a ''psychic change ? '' and the 3 pertinent ideas , (A) powerless over alcohol and unmanageable life , ( B) No human power could relieve our alcoholism , ( C ) God could and would if he were sought , mean ready to take certain steps , and my experience is the newcomer can accept psychic change more easily if viewed as complete surrender and throwing in the towel , than looking at it as a ''spiritual experience is necessary ''
Wondering in what ''context '' Silkworth was meaning with ''psychic change ? '' I know a spiritual experience can bring about the reversal of thinking which is to me a type of psychic change . or similar ?
Most AA s I meet fall into ''spiritual experience '' camp . Me I do not see it that way as its not black and white , suppose the answer is judge each case on its merit . How do other '' AA Members see it '' ?
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
For quite a while I viewed that akin to a spiritual experience , but lately I have altered my way of looking at it .
Considering the language in the Big Book I assume Dr Silkworth was familiar with the term spiritual experience and spiritual awakening in 1939 .
Way I see it today is simply ''when the penny finally drops '' I cannot do this anymore and I keep making a total mess of my life with my way of doing things , a complete surrender .Throwing in the towel .
Is that when the new guy/gal is ready to take certain steps ?.
Working with others suggests gaining a newcomers confidence and once having done so you lay out the spiritual path as soon as possible and leaving them with a copy of the Big Book say for a while , going back and finding out what the newcomer is prepared to do (more or less ) . I assume the logic ? is for them to go through Doctors Opinion through to How it Works and after and for one to find out if the newcomer is ready to take certain steps , throwing in the towel ? has the penny dropped ? taking into account the 3 pertinent ideas .
Back to newcomer reading Dr Opinion say at Big Book discussion and surrender's and throws in the towel isn't that a ''psychic change ? '' and the 3 pertinent ideas , (A) powerless over alcohol and unmanageable life , ( B) No human power could relieve our alcoholism , ( C ) God could and would if he were sought , mean ready to take certain steps , and my experience is the newcomer can accept psychic change more easily if viewed as complete surrender and throwing in the towel , than looking at it as a ''spiritual experience is necessary ''
Wondering in what ''context '' Silkworth was meaning with ''psychic change ? '' I know a spiritual experience can bring about the reversal of thinking which is to me a type of psychic change . or similar ?
Most AA s I meet fall into ''spiritual experience '' camp . Me I do not see it that way as its not black and white , suppose the answer is judge each case on its merit . How do other '' AA Members see it '' ?
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
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When I left my first meeting and was walking to train station I felt I didn’t need to drink anymore and the obsession was gone.
Psychic Change? Spiritual awakening? Identification? I really don't really know but I haven`t had a drink since.
Straight up no bs.
Not a drop.
Psychic Change? Spiritual awakening? Identification? I really don't really know but I haven`t had a drink since.
Straight up no bs.
Not a drop.
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So did I Ken in 1973 I will ''never ''forget how I felt when I left my first meeting and I also felt I was finished with alcohol , sadly that wasn't to be , but ''well done '' to you Ken .
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It's difficult to call it one word but my mind does seem to be operating in a different dimension like the Big Book says. This has happened slowly over the past 9 months. Sometimes I don't recognize myself. "The attitude and outlook" change mentioned in the promises. As far as spiritual I thought I would feel all warm and fuzzy and that seldom happens. I just know I'm growing and moving forward in life instead of each day being a groundhog day.
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I think when we start living the steps that we are rocketed into the 4th dimension. Spirituality certainly is a big piece of that but I simply am not the person I was. I feel that for most of my life I existed. Now for the first time I am experiencing life in all of it's glory and sometimes tragedy but I'm experiencing it alive
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Originally Posted by oldsoul1122 
It's difficult to call it one word but my mind does seem to be operating in a different dimension like the Big Book says. This has happened slowly over the past 9 months. Sometimes I don't recognize myself. "The attitude and outlook" change mentioned in the promises. As far as spiritual I thought I would feel all warm and fuzzy and that seldom happens. I just know I'm growing and moving forward in life instead of each day being a groundhog day.
Hi Old Soul .
Yes your getting rid of old ideas and your thinking has changed which makes life less difficult , meaning the difference between right and wrong which is ''change '' keep doing what you are doing and spiritual experiences will keep happening ''like a light bulb moment '' or a real feeling of ''clarity '' I had many before my ''spiritual awakening ''.
Don't know about feeling ''warm and fuzzy '' but any spiritual experience that I have had has gave me great peace and calmness and contentment which was tremendous until my efforts slackened and the feelings subdued .
Meant to mention in your other thread that I am 70 , older than you .
I really upped my efforts and experienced the spiritual awakening which is much different from''psychic change or spiritual experience''today I have immense peace, contentment, calmness and an unhurried outlook on life through constant conscious contact with HP , So keep on doing the work .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
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Great topic, Stevie!!
I saw two newcomers in my noon men's meeting today both came in under their own will and both dropped a handful of pennies.. both 16 hours sober..in pain, red eyes, head down, shaking etc.. Needless to say the man chairing opened the meeting and we had a first step discussion.. They stuck around after the meeting and we gave them newcomer packages with schedules, AA info and all the phone numbers of all the members.. It was spiritual to me in a way because I remember my first meeting..
I was so hard headed it took me 4 years to get it.. I finally got my first real year sober a few weeks ago.. Recovery is the most important thing in my life!!
Sorry to ramble.. One thing you've taught me Stevie is to keep it simple! That's the core of my program, one day at a time and stay away from the 1st drink!! It really works if you work it!!
I saw two newcomers in my noon men's meeting today both came in under their own will and both dropped a handful of pennies.. both 16 hours sober..in pain, red eyes, head down, shaking etc.. Needless to say the man chairing opened the meeting and we had a first step discussion.. They stuck around after the meeting and we gave them newcomer packages with schedules, AA info and all the phone numbers of all the members.. It was spiritual to me in a way because I remember my first meeting..
I was so hard headed it took me 4 years to get it.. I finally got my first real year sober a few weeks ago.. Recovery is the most important thing in my life!!
Sorry to ramble.. One thing you've taught me Stevie is to keep it simple! That's the core of my program, one day at a time and stay away from the 1st drink!! It really works if you work it!!
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There are a number of different terms used to describe the spiritual experience/awakening. See appendix ii where it talks about a personality change sufficient to recover from alcoholism.
Dr Silkworth used the phrase "unless this man can undergo a complete psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery" Psychiatrist, psychologist, psych has to do with the mind which also has to do with the personality.
The three pertinent ideas cover steps one and two, and are used to introduce step three. As we know from long experience, three stepping is a common factor in relapses, so it does not bring about the required psychic change.
Something to bear in mind, as I was reminded when listening to a professor of psychiatry addressing a public meeting, put on by an AA group, is that the scientific community cannot use other than scientific terms. His terms for spiritual awakening were psychic change and conversion experience, which he viewed as the only known solution for severe AUD suffers. He further stated that there was no medical way of bringing about such an experience, though LSD was tried in the 60s.
He said professionally he could not use the term spiritual experience, but that AA were the experts in that field. This was surprising stuff coming from a man who set out 30 years ago to prove AA did not work.
Spiritual awakening is really continued spiritual experience/s, in my experience, either way it is an ongoing event. The removal of the obsession and the change of personality are remarkable in that they were events I could not engineer for myself. Perhaps the change enables me to live in harmony with the world, and not constant conflict.
Dr Silkworth used the phrase "unless this man can undergo a complete psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery" Psychiatrist, psychologist, psych has to do with the mind which also has to do with the personality.
The three pertinent ideas cover steps one and two, and are used to introduce step three. As we know from long experience, three stepping is a common factor in relapses, so it does not bring about the required psychic change.
Something to bear in mind, as I was reminded when listening to a professor of psychiatry addressing a public meeting, put on by an AA group, is that the scientific community cannot use other than scientific terms. His terms for spiritual awakening were psychic change and conversion experience, which he viewed as the only known solution for severe AUD suffers. He further stated that there was no medical way of bringing about such an experience, though LSD was tried in the 60s.
He said professionally he could not use the term spiritual experience, but that AA were the experts in that field. This was surprising stuff coming from a man who set out 30 years ago to prove AA did not work.
Spiritual awakening is really continued spiritual experience/s, in my experience, either way it is an ongoing event. The removal of the obsession and the change of personality are remarkable in that they were events I could not engineer for myself. Perhaps the change enables me to live in harmony with the world, and not constant conflict.
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Originally Posted by stevieg46
So did I Ken in 1973 I will ''never ''forget how I felt when I left my first meeting and I also felt I was finished with alcohol , sadly that wasn't to be , but ''well done '' to you Ken .
Stevie
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Keep it psychic, keep it spiritual, keep it real.
But don't pick up that first drink.
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Originally Posted by Gottalife
...
He said professionally he could not use the term spiritual experience, but that AA were the experts in that field. This was surprising stuff coming from a man who set out 30 years ago to prove AA did not work.
He said professionally he could not use the term spiritual experience, but that AA were the experts in that field. This was surprising stuff coming from a man who set out 30 years ago to prove AA did not work.
AA works.
Although not necessarily the same way for everyone.
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Originally Posted by Gottalife
...Dr Silkworth used the phrase "unless this man can undergo a complete psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery" Psychiatrist, psychologist, psych has to do with the mind which also has to do with the personality.
It's the same with BW and his psychic experience. I believe the man was high when it occurred. Which isn't to say he didn't have a change because he certainly did.
My point is how one actually changes with regards to alcohol dependence often depends on the individual.
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What I should have said at the outset was ''my latest experience/ understanding of the term psychic change '' has changed, from how I understood it previously .
Recently I saw newcomers that had experienced the penny dropping in front of my eyes at Big Book discussion at Dr's Opinion table as I had been talking about ''psychic change '' or as I was putting it ''the penny dropping '' the following week they were sitting at ''more about alcoholism table '' all they could speak about was ''the penny had dropped ''
Like ''James experiences religious/spiritual varieties '' sudden or gradual , I now believe that psychic change can be sudden or gradual , looking back over many years I have met people who claimed that at their very first meeting they felt as if ''that is it , its all over '' met a woman once who said she felt as if ''God had tapped her shoulder and said its going to be alright '' this was at her first meeting ., she died sober 28 years later
I mentioned on OP working with others the example given with working with the newcomer , gaining confidence , mentioning the spiritual path , leaving them the book and going back to see them , I think you would be able to figure out if the ''penny has dropped or a psychic change has taken place '' they are ready to take certain steps .
How it Works, illustrates this also , ''our description of the alcoholic '' the ''chapter to the agnostics '' and ''our personal stories before and after '' made clear three pertinent ideas A B C accepting them to me is ''psychic change ''of the gradual type, same as Working with Others , and them ready to go to any lengths and ready to take certain steps .
I agree with what Mike ( Gottalife ) said ''the medical and psychology fields do not talk in terms of spiritual '' doesn't really matter in what context Dr Silkworth was meaning with psychic change , fact is he was 100% correct no matter how one looks upon it , sudden or gradual , then again its just my experiences of late .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
Recently I saw newcomers that had experienced the penny dropping in front of my eyes at Big Book discussion at Dr's Opinion table as I had been talking about ''psychic change '' or as I was putting it ''the penny dropping '' the following week they were sitting at ''more about alcoholism table '' all they could speak about was ''the penny had dropped ''
Like ''James experiences religious/spiritual varieties '' sudden or gradual , I now believe that psychic change can be sudden or gradual , looking back over many years I have met people who claimed that at their very first meeting they felt as if ''that is it , its all over '' met a woman once who said she felt as if ''God had tapped her shoulder and said its going to be alright '' this was at her first meeting ., she died sober 28 years later
I mentioned on OP working with others the example given with working with the newcomer , gaining confidence , mentioning the spiritual path , leaving them the book and going back to see them , I think you would be able to figure out if the ''penny has dropped or a psychic change has taken place '' they are ready to take certain steps .
How it Works, illustrates this also , ''our description of the alcoholic '' the ''chapter to the agnostics '' and ''our personal stories before and after '' made clear three pertinent ideas A B C accepting them to me is ''psychic change ''of the gradual type, same as Working with Others , and them ready to go to any lengths and ready to take certain steps .
I agree with what Mike ( Gottalife ) said ''the medical and psychology fields do not talk in terms of spiritual '' doesn't really matter in what context Dr Silkworth was meaning with psychic change , fact is he was 100% correct no matter how one looks upon it , sudden or gradual , then again its just my experiences of late .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
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Originally Posted by Ken33xx
It's the same with BW and his psychic experience. I believe the man was high when it occurred.
Bill's "psychic change" is inconsistent with medication that may have been used as part of his treatment in December of 1934. He may have been given a deliriant, not a psychedelic. Bill's spiritual experience is not constant with what people experience on deliriants. His experience is very consistent with what many individuals report during mystical experiences (which includes what scores of people report in near death experiences). Here is a link that discusses Bills spiritual experience. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...76Twbzn2fEjEug
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Thanks for the link and I've read it before but (Imo) feel it’s biased.
This site has more creditability:
Take it and it'll certainly get you stoned…Take too much and you'll end up with serious brain damage or maybe even dead.
http://www.drugtext.org/Recreational...elladonna.html
In this instance the drug was administered in a hospital and under the care of a doctor so there was no danger of an overdose.
Add to this his buddy Thacher was visiting was going on about God while (BW) was tripping and it’s not hard to understand how BW came to believe what he did.
On the second or third day of his treatment, Mr. Wilson had his now famous spiritual awakening. Earlier that evening, Mr. Thacher had visited and tried to persuade Mr. Wilson to turn himself over to the care of a Christian deity who would liberate him from the ravages of alcohol. Hours later, depressed and delirious, Mr. Wilson cried out: “I’ll do anything! Anything at all! If there be a God, let him show himself!” He then witnessed a blinding light and felt an ecstatic sense of freedom and peace. When Mr. Wilson told Dr. Silkworth about the event, the physician responded: “Something has happened to you I don’t understand. But you had better hang on to it.”
Hang on to it he did. Indeed, this experience ultimately led Mr. Wilson to abstain from alcohol for the remaining 36 years of his life and to co-create the novel program whereby one alcoholic helps another through a commitment to absolute honesty and a belief that a higher power can help one achieve sobriety.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/he...runk.html?_r=0
Fantastic for BW and the rest is history. However, I believe it's disingenuous to deny the strong possibility of this spiritual awakening as being drug induced.
It also helps explain why he tried acid later in life after his pink cloud was long gone. He wanted another crack at what he experienced in the hospital and the AA program he put together wasn't making it.
This site has more creditability:
Take it and it'll certainly get you stoned…Take too much and you'll end up with serious brain damage or maybe even dead.
http://www.drugtext.org/Recreational...elladonna.html
In this instance the drug was administered in a hospital and under the care of a doctor so there was no danger of an overdose.
Add to this his buddy Thacher was visiting was going on about God while (BW) was tripping and it’s not hard to understand how BW came to believe what he did.
On the second or third day of his treatment, Mr. Wilson had his now famous spiritual awakening. Earlier that evening, Mr. Thacher had visited and tried to persuade Mr. Wilson to turn himself over to the care of a Christian deity who would liberate him from the ravages of alcohol. Hours later, depressed and delirious, Mr. Wilson cried out: “I’ll do anything! Anything at all! If there be a God, let him show himself!” He then witnessed a blinding light and felt an ecstatic sense of freedom and peace. When Mr. Wilson told Dr. Silkworth about the event, the physician responded: “Something has happened to you I don’t understand. But you had better hang on to it.”
Hang on to it he did. Indeed, this experience ultimately led Mr. Wilson to abstain from alcohol for the remaining 36 years of his life and to co-create the novel program whereby one alcoholic helps another through a commitment to absolute honesty and a belief that a higher power can help one achieve sobriety.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/he...runk.html?_r=0
Fantastic for BW and the rest is history. However, I believe it's disingenuous to deny the strong possibility of this spiritual awakening as being drug induced.
It also helps explain why he tried acid later in life after his pink cloud was long gone. He wanted another crack at what he experienced in the hospital and the AA program he put together wasn't making it.
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Silkworth: Unless this man can undergo a complete psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery.....
It is more a statement of fact. Silkworth helped thousands of alcoholics and this is what he observed. Most of those who did not undergo a psychic change did not recover.
It is also current medical opinion, though I don't dispute that the view is not unanimous, and the person I quote is our leading expert in this field, with a team of researchers. His opening remark was "It turns out AA was right all along" And he made it very clear that for severe sufferers of AUD, a conversion (spiritual) experience remains the only solution. Medicine has no solution.
He also stated that in terms of progress on treating severe AUD, there hase been little or no progress since about 1967 when they were experimenting with LSD on alcoholics. That work, in a recent peer review was found to have had some merit apparently.
Back then they also tried electro-convulsive therapy on alcoholics by the way.
Originally Posted by Ken33xx
Yes, but that's an opinion from 80 years ago. I'm sure you'll find some disagreement in today's medical field.
.
.
It is also current medical opinion, though I don't dispute that the view is not unanimous, and the person I quote is our leading expert in this field, with a team of researchers. His opening remark was "It turns out AA was right all along" And he made it very clear that for severe sufferers of AUD, a conversion (spiritual) experience remains the only solution. Medicine has no solution.
He also stated that in terms of progress on treating severe AUD, there hase been little or no progress since about 1967 when they were experimenting with LSD on alcoholics. That work, in a recent peer review was found to have had some merit apparently.
Back then they also tried electro-convulsive therapy on alcoholics by the way.
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Originally Posted by Gottalife
...
It is more a statement of fact. Silkworth helped thousands of alcoholics and this is what he observed. Most of those who did not undergo a psychic change did not recover.
It is more a statement of fact. Silkworth helped thousands of alcoholics and this is what he observed. Most of those who did not undergo a psychic change did not recover.
Originally Posted by Gottalife
...It is also current medical opinion, though I don't dispute that the view is not unanimous..
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Hi Ken .
Yes its possible his experience was drug induced , its also possible he later chased the feeling he had in Towns through L S D , it points to maybe one being right in one scenario , or both scenarios are right , or then again maybe both are wrong .
Fact is do not think its helpful to discuss the did he's and did he not's , fact is every body knows Bill W was certainly no saint warts and all .
What mostly at that time Bill W put into Alcoholics Anonymous will be remembered as colossal and never be forgotten . AA s Big Book is a ''masterpiece '' also his personal effort to get AA up and running is mainly at that time down to him even though there were some ups and downs , personally I am not really a fan but that's neither here nor there. and its getting away from original topic
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
Yes its possible his experience was drug induced , its also possible he later chased the feeling he had in Towns through L S D , it points to maybe one being right in one scenario , or both scenarios are right , or then again maybe both are wrong .
Fact is do not think its helpful to discuss the did he's and did he not's , fact is every body knows Bill W was certainly no saint warts and all .
What mostly at that time Bill W put into Alcoholics Anonymous will be remembered as colossal and never be forgotten . AA s Big Book is a ''masterpiece '' also his personal effort to get AA up and running is mainly at that time down to him even though there were some ups and downs , personally I am not really a fan but that's neither here nor there. and its getting away from original topic
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
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Originally Posted by stevieg46
Hi Ken .
Yes its possible his experience was drug induced , its also possible he later chased the feeling he had in Towns through L S D , it points to maybe one being right in one scenario , or both scenarios are right , or then again maybe both are wrong .
Fact is do not think its helpful to discuss the did he's and did he not's , fact is every body knows Bill W was certainly no saint warts and all .
What mostly at that time Bill W put into Alcoholics Anonymous will be remembered as colossal and never be forgotten . AA s Big Book is a ''masterpiece '' also his personal effort to get AA up and running is mainly at that time down to him even though there were some ups and downs , personally I am not really a fan but that's neither here nor there. and its getting away from original topic
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
Yes its possible his experience was drug induced , its also possible he later chased the feeling he had in Towns through L S D , it points to maybe one being right in one scenario , or both scenarios are right , or then again maybe both are wrong .
Fact is do not think its helpful to discuss the did he's and did he not's , fact is every body knows Bill W was certainly no saint warts and all .
What mostly at that time Bill W put into Alcoholics Anonymous will be remembered as colossal and never be forgotten . AA s Big Book is a ''masterpiece '' also his personal effort to get AA up and running is mainly at that time down to him even though there were some ups and downs , personally I am not really a fan but that's neither here nor there. and its getting away from original topic
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
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Originally Posted by stevieg46
Wondering in what ''context '' Silkworth was meaning with ''psychic change ? '' I know a spiritual experience can bring about the reversal of thinking which is to me a type of psychic change . or similar ?
So many now days strive to be spiritual
what ever that is ?
The Big Book mentions somewhere about being Born Again.
That is a Christian Bible term.
Born from above -- strictly a gift from the Holy Spirit.
Nothing man can do so as to receive that gift.
Working the Steps has nothing to do with being Born Again.
The original Program was Christmas centered.
That didn't last for long.
Mankind has always thought that they can come up with something better.
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I've read a lot of literature on the history of AA. Bill DID attempt to recreate his spiritual experience by experimenting with the LSD; he did this to try to help others to have the experience.
I didn't need LSD; I worked the steps and by step 7, things changed drastically for me and I am grateful for that. (especially since I was in and out of AA for 25 years, not certain it would help me!). Others say they lost the obsession and desire at their first meeting, that just didn't happen for me.
Spiritual experience? Yes, after step 7 all four times I've worked through those steps so far (in almost 5 complete years of sobriety from drugs and alcohol).
I didn't need LSD; I worked the steps and by step 7, things changed drastically for me and I am grateful for that. (especially since I was in and out of AA for 25 years, not certain it would help me!). Others say they lost the obsession and desire at their first meeting, that just didn't happen for me.
Spiritual experience? Yes, after step 7 all four times I've worked through those steps so far (in almost 5 complete years of sobriety from drugs and alcohol).
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