Why its said . '' It is a Selfish Program ''
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Why its said . '' It is a Selfish Program ''
Not long after I first came to AA, I heard the statement its a '' selfish program'' , later on I heard that ''you need to give it away to get it '' , I also heard its ''a simple program for complicated people '' all very confusing for the new member who is probably wrapped up in their own problems and probably incapable of keeping an open mind .
Few years ago I heard another statement (not in AA ) it said .
'' Looking back the older I get the more I realize how little I knew when I thought I knew it all ''
Heard that change takes place in spite of yourself , today I agree with that statement , growth takes place the longer you practice the principles in all your affairs and likewise your thinking changes in spite of yourself . Looking back at times I was convinced my efforts and thoughts and working the AA program were 100% correct. No, they were not correct as I see it today , I was on the right track but heading in the wrong direction .
Not really important but I consider myself ''agnostic '' and taken that into consideration my application of the AA program is slightly different . I do 100% believe in a ''Higher Power '' which for me is ''within '' .
Big Book says ''self'' is the root cause of our problem , I take it, that it means ''selfishness and being self centered '' as in thinking only of ourselves first .
I believe ''that I keep me sober '' which is self . I believe ''I must love myself first '' which is self . I believe that ''I must place my sobriety first '' which is self . ''I look after myself and family first '' which is self .
All of the above realizations eventually took me to the promised spiritual awakening . In my case putting it into perspective which took a long time developing a new attitude and ''understanding '' .
Only for me . Self ,Me , I , I allow myself to take action in giving my Higher Power '' permission but first '' I '' must be willing trusting and have faith and patience to let HP take me by the hand and lead and guide me in my everyday life .
Same as '' I '' had to make the effort in trying to get rid of my old ideas ,'' you cannot just say to your Higher Power its all yours so sort it out'' and everything will turn out rosy , no '' I '' Me'' Self '' must make the effort , '' if you want out of a hole you need to grab a shovel ''.
My attitude today is . Love Myself 1 st , Love my Higher Power . and , Love others .
God /Higher Power Will Not Stop anyone lifting a drink and will not help us unless WE I ME . Allow it . Action is the magic word and it, is said '' Let it Begin With Me '' =Self .
I CANT . GOD/HIGHER POWER CAN , ONLY IF '' I '' LET HIM. its ok saying God forgives you ? but you must forgive yourself 1st
That's how I stay sober and apply the AA program which is ''selfish '' others may have different thoughts which I respect as selfish on ''their part ''.
Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
If a man hears a different drummer let him march to the drum he hears
Few years ago I heard another statement (not in AA ) it said .
'' Looking back the older I get the more I realize how little I knew when I thought I knew it all ''
Heard that change takes place in spite of yourself , today I agree with that statement , growth takes place the longer you practice the principles in all your affairs and likewise your thinking changes in spite of yourself . Looking back at times I was convinced my efforts and thoughts and working the AA program were 100% correct. No, they were not correct as I see it today , I was on the right track but heading in the wrong direction .
Not really important but I consider myself ''agnostic '' and taken that into consideration my application of the AA program is slightly different . I do 100% believe in a ''Higher Power '' which for me is ''within '' .
Big Book says ''self'' is the root cause of our problem , I take it, that it means ''selfishness and being self centered '' as in thinking only of ourselves first .
I believe ''that I keep me sober '' which is self . I believe ''I must love myself first '' which is self . I believe that ''I must place my sobriety first '' which is self . ''I look after myself and family first '' which is self .
All of the above realizations eventually took me to the promised spiritual awakening . In my case putting it into perspective which took a long time developing a new attitude and ''understanding '' .
Only for me . Self ,Me , I , I allow myself to take action in giving my Higher Power '' permission but first '' I '' must be willing trusting and have faith and patience to let HP take me by the hand and lead and guide me in my everyday life .
Same as '' I '' had to make the effort in trying to get rid of my old ideas ,'' you cannot just say to your Higher Power its all yours so sort it out'' and everything will turn out rosy , no '' I '' Me'' Self '' must make the effort , '' if you want out of a hole you need to grab a shovel ''.
My attitude today is . Love Myself 1 st , Love my Higher Power . and , Love others .
God /Higher Power Will Not Stop anyone lifting a drink and will not help us unless WE I ME . Allow it . Action is the magic word and it, is said '' Let it Begin With Me '' =Self .
I CANT . GOD/HIGHER POWER CAN , ONLY IF '' I '' LET HIM. its ok saying God forgives you ? but you must forgive yourself 1st
That's how I stay sober and apply the AA program which is ''selfish '' others may have different thoughts which I respect as selfish on ''their part ''.
Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
If a man hears a different drummer let him march to the drum he hears
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
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I am not a fan of "It's a selfish program" for two reasons. Firstly the program is anything but, and secondly it is a saying that is used to justify selfish behaviour.
An eminent medical professional once gave a talk on the twelve steps and their use in helping alcoholics recover. He didn't sugar coat his words.
He thought the steps would "turn greedy self lovers into generous other lovers"...Ouch!
Context and honesty is all important when thinking about these sorts fo sayings and comments. A greedy self lover was what I was. To become a generous other lover, I had to put my sobriety first, not my self.
An eminent medical professional once gave a talk on the twelve steps and their use in helping alcoholics recover. He didn't sugar coat his words.
He thought the steps would "turn greedy self lovers into generous other lovers"...Ouch!
Context and honesty is all important when thinking about these sorts fo sayings and comments. A greedy self lover was what I was. To become a generous other lover, I had to put my sobriety first, not my self.
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Originally Posted by Gottalife 
I am not a fan of "It's a selfish program" for two reasons. Firstly the program is anything but, and secondly it is a saying that is used to justify selfish behaviour.
An eminent medical professional once gave a talk on the twelve steps and their use in helping alcoholics recover. He didn't sugar coat his words.
He thought the steps would "turn greedy self lovers into generous other lovers"...Ouch!
Context and honesty is all important when thinking about these sorts fo sayings and comments. A greedy self lover was what I was. To become a generous other lover, I had to put my sobriety first, not my self.
An eminent medical professional once gave a talk on the twelve steps and their use in helping alcoholics recover. He didn't sugar coat his words.
He thought the steps would "turn greedy self lovers into generous other lovers"...Ouch!
Context and honesty is all important when thinking about these sorts fo sayings and comments. A greedy self lover was what I was. To become a generous other lover, I had to put my sobriety first, not my self.
You say ''I had to put my sobriety first , not myself '' .
That's what I am talking about throughout my post , ''my sobriety is ME '' if ''I '' am not right ? how can I help others , my sobriety is me , the ''me ''is self , making sure I am alright .
Putting it another way, is it ''selfish '' in a hypothetical way to say '' I would not like to see anyone drunk '' ? but if it came down to the nitty gritty , I would rather see anyone else drunk than be drunk myself ?
That is being ruthless with your own sobriety , how can I help others if I do not work at keeping ''myself '' in good spiritual condition ? if I don't continue on a daily basis to do this then I revert back to my former self , then my old ideas , then I am carrying a ''mess'' that's how in my book some folk can return to alcohol . To me sobriety is the ''magnificent obsession'' which strengthens my sobriety .
I do not see how saying its a selfish program is justifying selfish behavior , its two parts get ''yourself right first and foremost then help others . Maybe its just me but I see ''self '' and selfish as two different things the program to me is not the ''removal of self '' but the ''removal of selfishness '' take care .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
If a man hears a different drummer let him march to the drum he hears .
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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I could not agree more with Gottalife. AA is anything but a selfish program.
IMO the oft heard phrase "It's a Selfish Program" refers to the importance doing the program for yourself, as opposed to working it at the urging of others (who may want us to get or to stay sober).
As for the idea that "my sobriety is ME", well, that does not apply personally. I prefer to think of sobriety as a verb.
IMO the oft heard phrase "It's a Selfish Program" refers to the importance doing the program for yourself, as opposed to working it at the urging of others (who may want us to get or to stay sober).
As for the idea that "my sobriety is ME", well, that does not apply personally. I prefer to think of sobriety as a verb.
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Originally Posted by awuh1
I could not agree more with Gottalife. AA is anything but a selfish program.
IMO the oft heard phrase "It's a Selfish Program" refers to the importance doing the program for yourself, as opposed to working it at the urging of others (who may want us to get or to stay sober).
As for the idea that "my sobriety is ME", well, that does not apply personally. I prefer to think of sobriety as a verb.
IMO the oft heard phrase "It's a Selfish Program" refers to the importance doing the program for yourself, as opposed to working it at the urging of others (who may want us to get or to stay sober).
As for the idea that "my sobriety is ME", well, that does not apply personally. I prefer to think of sobriety as a verb.
Hi Awuh .
Of course ''its a Selfish Program '' refers to the importance of doing the program for yourself , first and foremost and then to help others .
Trying to figure out how you and Mike think differently from what I posted , don't know but both of you have got me thinking about what seems to be in your views incorrect . Please explain (maybe I am dumb )
Self restraint and Self discipline is mentioned in the 12 x 12 both these words are self explanatory , if not practiced by oneself ( me) until it becomes a way of life then self growth and spiritual progress will not take place . If not then self will runs riot , but none of my post relates to self will as a method of staying sober .
I still maintain that you must get sober for yourself , be ruthless in getting sober for yourself , get yourself sorted out first until capable to turn'' your'' will and life over to a HP , my will in this example does not mean I am incapable of doing the right thing when required, I have a brain and know the difference between right and wrong which is common sense and is a natural reaction in trying to practice and live a new way of life .
Of course I seek daily guidance and improvement through Higher Power .
Self restraint and self control in my opinion is practicing being unselfish and the exact opposite of self will . But I must put in the footwork or else . I cannot maintain a relationship with my HP unless Me the Self stops taking action to improve , its a program of change which takes a lot of personal effort first, in conjunction with HP .
Of course I care passionately and deeply for other alcoholics and try my best to help which is unselfish , its a two sided coin in my view , but I am more than willing if wrong to see differently . Maybe its selfish and unselfish .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
If a man hears a different drummer? let him march to the drum he hears .
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Join Date: Jun 2014
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Not long after I first came to AA, I heard the statement its a '' selfish program'' , later on I heard that ''you need to give it away to get it '' , I also heard its ''a simple program for complicated people '' all very confusing for the new member who is probably wrapped up in their own problems and probably incapable of keeping an open mind .
I noticed this when I was new and would hear conflicting views. For example I was surprised many meetings ending with the Lord`s Prayer while at the same time I would hear AA is non-religious. (Being raised Catholic this wasn`t an issue but the debates within the rooms were often heated and it wasn`t too long before the LP was replaced with the Serenity Prayer.)
Heard that change takes place in spite of yourself , today I agree with that statement , growth takes place the longer you practice the principles in all your affairs and likewise your thinking changes in spite of yourself .
Right. Having to live life on life`s terms I developed over the years a reservoir of difficult experiences I went through and came out the other side intact. When I was drinking growth was limited because it was easier to drink than to face and deal with unpleasant situations.
Big Book says ''self'' is the root cause of our problem , I take it, that it means ''selfishness and being self centered '' as in thinking only of ourselves first .
Debates over the interpretation of the BB are endless and often the same as you hear in a Bible study group. Everybody is right and nobody is wrong.
Of course I care passionately and deeply for other alcoholics and try my best to help which is unselfish , its a two sided coin in my view , but I am more than willing if wrong to see differently . Maybe its selfish and unselfish .
Yes, I believe it is a two-side coin as is much of AA. Personally, I need to be centered myself before I can be of help to others. On the other hand if I am bent of shape emotionally talking with another alcoholic often helps me forget my troubles.
I noticed this when I was new and would hear conflicting views. For example I was surprised many meetings ending with the Lord`s Prayer while at the same time I would hear AA is non-religious. (Being raised Catholic this wasn`t an issue but the debates within the rooms were often heated and it wasn`t too long before the LP was replaced with the Serenity Prayer.)
Heard that change takes place in spite of yourself , today I agree with that statement , growth takes place the longer you practice the principles in all your affairs and likewise your thinking changes in spite of yourself .
Right. Having to live life on life`s terms I developed over the years a reservoir of difficult experiences I went through and came out the other side intact. When I was drinking growth was limited because it was easier to drink than to face and deal with unpleasant situations.
Big Book says ''self'' is the root cause of our problem , I take it, that it means ''selfishness and being self centered '' as in thinking only of ourselves first .
Debates over the interpretation of the BB are endless and often the same as you hear in a Bible study group. Everybody is right and nobody is wrong.
Of course I care passionately and deeply for other alcoholics and try my best to help which is unselfish , its a two sided coin in my view , but I am more than willing if wrong to see differently . Maybe its selfish and unselfish .
Yes, I believe it is a two-side coin as is much of AA. Personally, I need to be centered myself before I can be of help to others. On the other hand if I am bent of shape emotionally talking with another alcoholic often helps me forget my troubles.
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Originally Posted by LiveInPeace
"Less self, more God*. More God, less self".
*God in a spiritual sense, not in a religious sense.
*God in a spiritual sense, not in a religious sense.
Sure, but then the newcomer thinks. "If this isn` a religious program why is the meeting closing with the Lords Prayer?"
At least that`s what I thought.
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interesting conversation.
when i've heard "it's a selfish program" (and i rarely hear it), i've assumed that speaks to putting sobriety first, i.e. doing what's needed to take care of that first and foremost
when i've heard "it's a selfish program" (and i rarely hear it), i've assumed that speaks to putting sobriety first, i.e. doing what's needed to take care of that first and foremost
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I believe we have 2 selves. A small self, ego, id. And a large self, higher power for example and we lose our small self to our larger self. After 6 plus months in AA I'm still baffled by the spiritual/religious concept as well as many other members. One meeting I attend doesn't hold hands and say the Lord's Prayer but instead says The Serenity Prayer. I guess it's selfish and selfless...depends on what you're doing at the time.
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Originally Posted by Ken33xx
Sure, but then the newcomer thinks. "If this isn` a religious program why is the meeting closing with the Lords Prayer?"
At least that`s what I thought.
At least that`s what I thought.
I was raised Jewish but by the time I got to AA/Big book step study, I was willing to do whatever it took to get well. I learned The Lord's Prayer on my own because I viewed it as part of my spiritual program that saved my life. By this point it didn't bother me in the least.
Plus it's my understanding that it wasn't originally a Christian prayer to begin with, but that Christianity happened to adopt it.
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Originally Posted by oldsoul1122
I believe we have 2 selves. A small self, ego, id. And a large self, higher power for example and we lose our small self to our larger self. After 6 plus months in AA I'm still baffled by the spiritual/religious concept as well as many other members. One meeting I attend doesn't hold hands and say the Lord's Prayer but instead says The Serenity Prayer. I guess it's selfish and selfless...depends on what you're doing at the time.
One of the most helpful things my sponsor suggested to me was to lay aside for now my childhood conception of God. That was "knowledge" about God told to me by other people, whereas in spirituality, I would have "experience" about God, without preconceived notions.
Basically spirituality is your own personal relationship with the God of your understanding, and religion is man-made, with rules and rituals that people follow.
I'm hoping others can add to that.
To add to what you wrote--I believe at first we are all selfish because our egos/small self are too large ("self will run riot") and that's what blocks us from our higher self/God. By working the AA program via the big book, we crush that ego so our higher self/God can become "awakened", unblocked, or enlarged.
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Originally Posted by LiveInPeace
I'm not sure I understand why saying the Lord's prayer in a circle bothers people. It's just a way to close the meeting and no one has to say it if they don't want to.
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Originally Posted by LiveInPeace
...To add to what you wrote--I believe at first we are all selfish because our egos/small self are too large ("self will run riot") and that's what blocks us from our higher self/God. By working the AA program via the big book, we crush that ego so our higher self/God can become "awakened", unblocked, or enlarged.
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Originally Posted by LiveInPeace
I'm not sure I understand why saying the Lord's prayer in a circle bothers people. It's just a way to close the meeting and no one has to say it if they don't want to.
I was raised Jewish but by the time I got to AA/Big book step study, I was willing to do whatever it took to get well. I learned The Lord's Prayer on my own because I viewed it as part of my spiritual program that saved my life. By this point it didn't bother me in the least.
Plus it's my understanding that it wasn't originally a Christian prayer to begin with, but that Christianity happened to adopt it.
I was raised Jewish but by the time I got to AA/Big book step study, I was willing to do whatever it took to get well. I learned The Lord's Prayer on my own because I viewed it as part of my spiritual program that saved my life. By this point it didn't bother me in the least.
Plus it's my understanding that it wasn't originally a Christian prayer to begin with, but that Christianity happened to adopt it.
Hi L I P .
I have commented on this several times . AA preamble makes it ''very clear '' that they are not allied with any sect, denomination ,or institution , do not endorse or oppose any causes . Now that is plain and simple like the nose on your face , Religion and politics are outside issues and cause much controversy .
Traditions are being broken and Preamble is ''being given the elbow '' by individual members collectively endorsing saying the LP , they do so at group level by claiming ''each group is autonomous '' BUT leaving out ''except affecting AA as a whole '' this is downright rationalizing and justification for ''personal ''reasons and they justify their actions by saying ''keep an open mind '' ? but only if it favors them .
Principles before personalities ? groups that persist in ignoring this by insisting on the LP being said are ''not concerned '' about the newcomers impression . AA is not religious ? why say a religious prayer ? they do not care, if others try and shoot me down here I could not care less , but you cannot defend the indefensible and at the end of the day , no matter how you look at it the'' bottom line is self will run riot '' . We will continue to do this no matter what .
LP is full of wisdom 'thy will be done '' etc but its a ''religious prayer . take care .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
if a man hears a different drum? let him march to the drummer he hears
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as long as we are throwing opinions around,I might as well throw mine in
as long as I am alive,self with be there in one form or another
the question is what am I going to do about it?
we can never entirely give up our will,as long as we are living,we will have a will,the question is,what are we going to do with it?
a lot of the early AA`s said there is a Higher Power and a Lower Power
I think there is
as long as there are alcoholics who refuse to open their minds,they will continue to say the Lords Prayer is religious rather than seek the truth about it
it was here before there was any religion
as long as there are alcoholics who refuse to open their minds,they will not see the Serenity Prayer is religious
of course I might be wrong,but I might be right
none the less,it works well for me
have a good day unless you have other plans
as long as I am alive,self with be there in one form or another
the question is what am I going to do about it?
we can never entirely give up our will,as long as we are living,we will have a will,the question is,what are we going to do with it?
a lot of the early AA`s said there is a Higher Power and a Lower Power
I think there is
as long as there are alcoholics who refuse to open their minds,they will continue to say the Lords Prayer is religious rather than seek the truth about it
it was here before there was any religion
as long as there are alcoholics who refuse to open their minds,they will not see the Serenity Prayer is religious
of course I might be wrong,but I might be right
none the less,it works well for me
have a good day unless you have other plans
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Hi Tommy well said , LP is recognized religious prayer world wide, Serenity prayer short version has been mostly accepted in AA for a very long time and is generally associated with AA and other 12 step fellowships, from time to time there may be a some objectors but very few , as you say its also religious especially the long version.
Like your take on will /self . take care .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
If a man hears a different drummer ?let him march to the drum he hears!
Like your take on will /self . take care .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
If a man hears a different drummer ?let him march to the drum he hears!
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
Selfishness, self-centeredness is the root of our problem. Our primary purpose......to help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.
Teach us how to pray - Luke 11:1
Can something be biblical and not religious? Idk......I'm not that smart.....
Teach us how to pray - Luke 11:1
Can something be biblical and not religious? Idk......I'm not that smart.....
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