39 years a guy relapsed. Can't believe it.
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That's really fascinating stuff on Bill Wilson. I've been reading As Bill Sees It every day for the past few months and a picture of a very interesting person emerges although of course it doesn't contain any biographical information about him. My feeling is that no one in AA asks us to see Bill as a saint and we have the liberty to question his integrity or his motives. That doesn't really detract that the organisation he helped to established has transformed the lives of many its members.
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Originally Posted by endlesspatience 
That's really fascinating stuff on Bill Wilson. I've been reading As Bill Sees It every day for the past few months and a picture of a very interesting person emerges although of course it doesn't contain any biographical information about him. My feeling is that no one in AA asks us to see Bill as a saint and we have the liberty to question his integrity or his motives. That doesn't really detract that the organisation he helped to established has transformed the lives of many its members.
I don`t find him a hypocrite for the acid trips, the shrinks, the women or the nutty Ouija boards. However, there were numerous people in AA not happy with the way he conducted himself but it was his life.
Anyway here`s a bit about the acid taking:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/...oholics-theory
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Originally Posted by Gottalife
I have heard this story a few times but I really don't believe it. I have sat with a number of dying alcoholics, even two who had completely rejected AA, and not a single one ever mentioned anything about wanting a drink. In my belief, they had other things on their minds, mainly worried about their families, the people they were leaving behind, and making their peace with the God of their understanding.
If Bill actually made a request like this I would suggest he was not in full control of his mental faculties.
If Bill actually made a request like this I would suggest he was not in full control of his mental faculties.
There's no way I believe that Bill would have all the wisdom he did and want to go back to his maker drunk.
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Originally Posted by WMJ1012
Bill died of emphysema, which as we know is a disease that basically steals ones capacity to breathe. It's an awful illness. When someone can't breathe or get enough oxygen that interferes with the whole body including brain function. The last several days of his life he really suffered in that way.
There's no way I believe that Bill would have all the wisdom he did and want to go back to his maker drunk.
There's no way I believe that Bill would have all the wisdom he did and want to go back to his maker drunk.
Apparently the nurse on duty (James Dannenberg) kept a meticulous logbook.. There was no mention of BW having been delirious when he demanded a drink on several occasions. The man was on his deathbed and knew it. Like it or not what he wanted at the end was a drink. Not the way I hope to go out but it is what it is.
So does this make him a failure or anyway diminish what he accomplished? Of course not.
He helped to start AA and millions of people are forever grateful.
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Long time ago I read Lois Wilson's Autobiography , and unfortunately gave the book away , I know that Lois never mentioned anything about Bill wanting a drink on his deathbed , who knows its either true or untrue . Hmm ? perhaps she wanted to preserve image ? who knows .
At the end of the day we of AA have a lot to thank including Roland Hazard , Ebby Thatcher , Bill Wilson , Dr Bob Smith who collectively are responsible for the message of Alcoholics Anonymous some had bigger inputs than others but its today that matters .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
Words are easy music is much harder
At the end of the day we of AA have a lot to thank including Roland Hazard , Ebby Thatcher , Bill Wilson , Dr Bob Smith who collectively are responsible for the message of Alcoholics Anonymous some had bigger inputs than others but its today that matters .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
Words are easy music is much harder
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Originally Posted by stevieg46
Long time ago I read Lois Wilson's Autobiography , and unfortunately gave the book away , I know that Lois never mentioned anything about Bill wanting a drink on his deathbed , who knows its either true or untrue . Hmm ? perhaps she wanted to preserve image ? who knows .
On the seventh of January, Nurse Dannenberg noted that Bill had been visited by some family members and that after the visit he and Lois had an angry argument. The next morning Bill again asked him for whiskey. ...
By the fourteenth of January, Bill Wilson, a man who hadn't had a drink in almost thirty-seven years, a man who had discovered what is still the only successful way to treat alcoholism, was asking for whiskey again."
My Name Is Bill: Bill Wilson, His Life and the Creation of Alcoholics Anonymous, Susan Cheever, pages 248-249.
Again none of the above diminishes what B.W. help start.
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Very interesting Ken , I just said ''Lois did not mention that '' personally I have never put BW on a pedestal nor consider him a saint , personally I think Lois and Bill's marriage was either just friendship or convenience once Bill got seriously involved in AA but that's neither here nor there . Unfortunately this type of information gives AA critics ammunition to capitalize on , take care.
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
Words are easy music is much harder .
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
Words are easy music is much harder .
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Personally, I think it`s that business of a Ouija board which is serious fodder for AA critics. Higher power and now he`s going on about a Ouija board? The acid, women, shrink and even the wanting a drink on his deathbed can be understood or at least rationalized.
But a Ouija board? To a lot of people B.W. was beginning to sound like a nut job.
Anyway, this thread started about someone with 39 years of sobriety who went back out. We all know we only have today. A daily reprieve. One day at a time. BW asked for a drink? 36 years? It happens. Granted I don`t often hear of members with say 20 plus years going out but I have heard it enough to not take sobriety lightly.
But a Ouija board? To a lot of people B.W. was beginning to sound like a nut job.
Anyway, this thread started about someone with 39 years of sobriety who went back out. We all know we only have today. A daily reprieve. One day at a time. BW asked for a drink? 36 years? It happens. Granted I don`t often hear of members with say 20 plus years going out but I have heard it enough to not take sobriety lightly.
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Hi Ken even Bill W's association with Aldous Huxley leaves a lot to be desired , he was a Satanist and had a house in the UK where its alleged a lot of stuff went on , its still there and its said to be haunted ?
Regards Stevie. recovered 12 04 2006.
Words are easy music is much harder
Regards Stevie. recovered 12 04 2006.
Words are easy music is much harder
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Originally Posted by Ken33xx
Personally, I think it`s that business of a Ouija board which is serious fodder for AA critics. Higher power and now he`s going on about a Ouija board? The acid, women, shrink and even the wanting a drink on his deathbed can be understood or at least rationalized.
But a Ouija board? To a lot of people B.W. was beginning to sound like a nut job.
But a Ouija board? To a lot of people B.W. was beginning to sound like a nut job.
can ya believe theres nut jobs in aa? whoda thunk it!?!?!?!lolol
ever here people at meetings talkin about what their cards or a medium told em about there life?
makes for good fodder inside aa!
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It would seem none of us have been on our death beds and died - so really what we are attempting to share is another persons experience in regards to what someone supposedly said that they read what someone wrote about what Bill W said and on more than one date. Wow - I think we might be alcoholics.......
Many things leave an imprint on me when I think of Bill's capabilities - First this; pg 285 As Bill Sees It - “It would be a product of false pride to claim that AA is a cure-all, even for alcoholism".
The other is hearing the testimony of a friend who visited Bill and Lois's humble grave sites. Next to Bill's headstone is post. The post has thousands of hospital wristbands stacked on.............
People's relapse stories are as individual as their recovery stories
Many things leave an imprint on me when I think of Bill's capabilities - First this; pg 285 As Bill Sees It - “It would be a product of false pride to claim that AA is a cure-all, even for alcoholism".
The other is hearing the testimony of a friend who visited Bill and Lois's humble grave sites. Next to Bill's headstone is post. The post has thousands of hospital wristbands stacked on.............
People's relapse stories are as individual as their recovery stories
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Join Date: Jun 2014
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I know personally of four members with long term sobriety who died sober after an extended illness. They showed a lot of dignity. However, I was surprised to hear a member with time share if they knew their days were number they would get drunk/high because what does it matter?
Which brings me back to B.W. and his deathbed request for a drink. Should he have been refused? Here`s a bit from an article which touches on BW request for a drink:
But I am saddened that a dying man was denied one of the few things that may have given him some comfort. And I find it even sadder that anyone would be relieved to hear he was denied that final drink.
Bill Wilson and the Drug War | Cato Institute
Below is a link to a debate regarding BW last days. (see comments)
The reality is though, that we have no idea how we are going to react to dying until we are facing it. Ram Dass talks about this in the documentary Fierce Grace . He devoted decades to spiritual training but he still felt overwhelmed when faced with own death – this was when he was having his stroke. Dying is not an easy thing.
http://paulgarrigan.com/if-i-ask-for...give-it-to-me/
Which brings me back to B.W. and his deathbed request for a drink. Should he have been refused? Here`s a bit from an article which touches on BW request for a drink:
But I am saddened that a dying man was denied one of the few things that may have given him some comfort. And I find it even sadder that anyone would be relieved to hear he was denied that final drink.
Bill Wilson and the Drug War | Cato Institute
Below is a link to a debate regarding BW last days. (see comments)
The reality is though, that we have no idea how we are going to react to dying until we are facing it. Ram Dass talks about this in the documentary Fierce Grace . He devoted decades to spiritual training but he still felt overwhelmed when faced with own death – this was when he was having his stroke. Dying is not an easy thing.
http://paulgarrigan.com/if-i-ask-for...give-it-to-me/
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
Originally Posted by Ken33xx
I know personally of four members with long term sobriety who died sober after an extended illness. They showed a lot of dignity. However, I was surprised to hear a member with time share if they knew their days were number they would get drunk/high because what does it matter?
Which brings me back to B.W. and his deathbed request for a drink. Should he have been refused? Here`s a bit from an article which touches on BW request for a drink:
But I am saddened that a dying man was denied one of the few things that may have given him some comfort. And I find it even sadder that anyone would be relieved to hear he was denied that final drink.
Bill Wilson and the Drug War | Cato Institute
Below is a link to a debate regarding BW last days. (see comments)
The reality is though, that we have no idea how we are going to react to dying until we are facing it. Ram Dass talks about this in the documentary Fierce Grace . He devoted decades to spiritual training but he still felt overwhelmed when faced with own death – this was when he was having his stroke. Dying is not an easy thing.
If I Ask For Whiskey On My Deathbed Please Just Give It To Me | paulgarrigan.com
Which brings me back to B.W. and his deathbed request for a drink. Should he have been refused? Here`s a bit from an article which touches on BW request for a drink:
But I am saddened that a dying man was denied one of the few things that may have given him some comfort. And I find it even sadder that anyone would be relieved to hear he was denied that final drink.
Bill Wilson and the Drug War | Cato Institute
Below is a link to a debate regarding BW last days. (see comments)
The reality is though, that we have no idea how we are going to react to dying until we are facing it. Ram Dass talks about this in the documentary Fierce Grace . He devoted decades to spiritual training but he still felt overwhelmed when faced with own death – this was when he was having his stroke. Dying is not an easy thing.
If I Ask For Whiskey On My Deathbed Please Just Give It To Me | paulgarrigan.com
I am more focused on how I live, today than how I'll croak tomorrow........
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Join Date: Jun 2014
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The point?
The point is I I like discussing the ins and outs of aa and the controversy surrounding bill Wilson is easier to discuss online than say at coffee after a meeting.
However such a topic probably belongs in another thread.
The point is I I like discussing the ins and outs of aa and the controversy surrounding bill Wilson is easier to discuss online than say at coffee after a meeting.
However such a topic probably belongs in another thread.
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Originally Posted by Gottalife
If Bill actually made a request like this I would suggest he was not in full control of his mental faculties.
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Originally Posted by Music
The woman who passed this along had 30 years, was a Catholic nun at one time and lost it all, ending up on a park bench. Is any alcoholic ever in full control of his mental faculties?
-allan
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Originally Posted by stevieg46
Hi Ken even Bill W's association with Aldous Huxley leaves a lot to be desired , he was a Satanist and had a house in the UK where its alleged a lot of stuff went on , its still there and its said to be haunted ?
Regards Stevie. recovered 12 04 2006.
Words are easy music is much harder
Regards Stevie. recovered 12 04 2006.
Words are easy music is much harder
Correction .
Aldous Huxley did not have a house in the UK , his tutor and mentor was a man called Alastair Crowley from the UK , his house is reported to be ''haunted '' apparently it has episodes of extreme chill at times observed by those involved in investigating paranormal . Crowley was heavily involved in the occult and black magic and was involved in very controversial experiments of the mind , he was a satanist .
In Bill W's case maybe the ''Ouija board '' was result of his involvement with Huxley ? .
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