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Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
There are so many interesting things in Bills story that it is difficult to pick just one thing to focus on. Bill's story often raises some interesting questions about the exact origins of AA.
I think it is correct to say "we might never have had the AA fellowship if Ebby Thatcher hadn't got sober through the Oxford group". Yet Bill himself did not see the beginnings of AA in the Oxford group.
Let me back up. A man named Rowland Hazard (described as "A certain American business man" on page 26) is the person who helped Ebby get sober. He was the one who introduced Ebby to the Oxford group. Rowland was also the patient of the "celebrated physician" Carl Jung described on page 26.
Jung was the person who told Rowland that, "Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences". These were the words which sent Rowland in search of a spiritual solution and resulted in Rowland seeking out the Oxford group.
In a 1961 letter of appreciation to Carl Jung, Bill wrote, "the conversation between you (and Rowland) was to become the first link in the chain of events that led to the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous". That's at least how Bill saw AA getting started.
Folks might also like to listen to Ebbys version of his conversation with Bill (at the kitchen table?). http://www.mediafire.com/listen/34ar...1961-03-04.mp3
As the person who introduces Ebby (correctly) points out, Ebby was sober at the time of his conversation with Bill, but Bill was not.
I think it is correct to say "we might never have had the AA fellowship if Ebby Thatcher hadn't got sober through the Oxford group". Yet Bill himself did not see the beginnings of AA in the Oxford group.
Let me back up. A man named Rowland Hazard (described as "A certain American business man" on page 26) is the person who helped Ebby get sober. He was the one who introduced Ebby to the Oxford group. Rowland was also the patient of the "celebrated physician" Carl Jung described on page 26.
Jung was the person who told Rowland that, "Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences". These were the words which sent Rowland in search of a spiritual solution and resulted in Rowland seeking out the Oxford group.
In a 1961 letter of appreciation to Carl Jung, Bill wrote, "the conversation between you (and Rowland) was to become the first link in the chain of events that led to the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous". That's at least how Bill saw AA getting started.
Folks might also like to listen to Ebbys version of his conversation with Bill (at the kitchen table?). http://www.mediafire.com/listen/34ar...1961-03-04.mp3
As the person who introduces Ebby (correctly) points out, Ebby was sober at the time of his conversation with Bill, but Bill was not.
Peace, Love, Sobriety
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wilmington, DE
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Originally Posted by Gottalife 
Thanks Stevie for some interesting back ground. In AA Comes of Age Bill actually states that Ebby was his sponsor., and in Bill's story we see how Ebby took Bill through the steps as they then were. That's about what a sponsor did in those days. The job description seems to have expanded quite a bit since then.
Friend of Jimmy B
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 667
Here's a very early, maybe the first pamphlet on sponsorship edited by Dr, Bob and published by the Akron Group in 1940. A.A. History -- A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous - 1940
It was explained to me by some old timers I knew in NYC who were around in the early days that the term sponsor came about when hospitals would accept an alcoholic if a sober member of AA would sponsor them.
-allan
It was explained to me by some old timers I knew in NYC who were around in the early days that the term sponsor came about when hospitals would accept an alcoholic if a sober member of AA would sponsor them.
-allan
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
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Step 12 having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps we carry we tried to carry the message to alcoholics and practice these principles in all of our affairs .
Often wonder if regarding sponsorship , if one was supposed to have had a spiritual awakening ? and practicing the principles , before actually carrying the message to alcoholics . '' Is that how it was supposed to work ''.
Want what'' WE'' have ? Here are the steps ''WE '' took.
Maybe that's what they did back then ? . Unfortunately today, at times we don't know what's been carried by sponsors who have not done the steps or had a spiritual awakening .
Regards Stevie sober 12 03 2006 .
If a man hears a different drummer ? he should march to the drum he hears !.
Often wonder if regarding sponsorship , if one was supposed to have had a spiritual awakening ? and practicing the principles , before actually carrying the message to alcoholics . '' Is that how it was supposed to work ''.
Want what'' WE'' have ? Here are the steps ''WE '' took.
Maybe that's what they did back then ? . Unfortunately today, at times we don't know what's been carried by sponsors who have not done the steps or had a spiritual awakening .
Regards Stevie sober 12 03 2006 .
If a man hears a different drummer ? he should march to the drum he hears !.
Peace, Love, Sobriety
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 1,549
Originally Posted by CousinA
Here's a very early, maybe the first pamphlet on sponsorship edited by Dr, Bob and published by the Akron Group in 1940. A.A. History -- A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous - 1940
It was explained to me by some old timers I knew in NYC who were around in the early days that the term sponsor came about when hospitals would accept an alcoholic if a sober member of AA would sponsor them.
-allan
It was explained to me by some old timers I knew in NYC who were around in the early days that the term sponsor came about when hospitals would accept an alcoholic if a sober member of AA would sponsor them.
-allan
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by CousinA
Here's a very early, maybe the first pamphlet on sponsorship edited by Dr, Bob and published by the Akron Group in 1940. A.A. History -- A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous - 1940
It was explained to me by some old timers I knew in NYC who were around in the early days that the term sponsor came about when hospitals would accept an alcoholic if a sober member of AA would sponsor them.
-allan
It was explained to me by some old timers I knew in NYC who were around in the early days that the term sponsor came about when hospitals would accept an alcoholic if a sober member of AA would sponsor them.
-allan
Friend of Jimmy B
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 667
That's an interesting question and an interesting research project. I can't answer for the courts but knowing the people I did, they would certainly have 12th Stepped someone out of court.
One of the differences I perceive between AA back when I was coming around and today is we got our hands dirty a lot more back then. That's what the old timers did for and passed on to us. We used to go on 12th Step calls. We went anywhere. Got however many people together brought people to hospitals and meetings. Not so much today or maybe I'm just becoming a cranky old guy
-allan
One of the differences I perceive between AA back when I was coming around and today is we got our hands dirty a lot more back then. That's what the old timers did for and passed on to us. We used to go on 12th Step calls. We went anywhere. Got however many people together brought people to hospitals and meetings. Not so much today or maybe I'm just becoming a cranky old guy
-allan
Peace, Love, Sobriety
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Chapter 2 - There is a Solution
Page 17 tonight folks! There is indeed a solution. This chapter is probably my favorite because it contains the message we all long to hear. There is a way out of our pain. And it isn't suicide or jail. Thank GOD!
One of my favorite lines in this chapter is "We are people who would normally not mix." AA does not discriminate. We do not care if you are white, black, purple, gay, straight, old, young, disabled, etc. All that matters is that we all want one thing. To get sober. I have to be honest before I found the program I was biased and discriminatory against some people, but I also believe that is because I didn't really know any better because I was raised that way. Today I am proud that I have made such lifelong friends, friends of all races, ages, and sexual orientations.
This chapter gently introduces us to our program. Never will you see the phrase "you must..." or "we require..." everything in this book is merely a suggested way of living. There are no demands. There are no gimmicks. All you have to do is read the book and be willing.
The other part of this chapter that sticks out for me is the comparison of Dr.Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Oh how true that is. When we are sober, we are wonderful people. When we drink, well...we turn into monsters. When I drank I mostly drank alone and isolated, but I know for a fact that I was not a nice person when I did come into contact with others. It is amazing what sobriety can do for us!
Let's hear what you all have to say about this chapter.
Page 17 tonight folks! There is indeed a solution. This chapter is probably my favorite because it contains the message we all long to hear. There is a way out of our pain. And it isn't suicide or jail. Thank GOD!
One of my favorite lines in this chapter is "We are people who would normally not mix." AA does not discriminate. We do not care if you are white, black, purple, gay, straight, old, young, disabled, etc. All that matters is that we all want one thing. To get sober. I have to be honest before I found the program I was biased and discriminatory against some people, but I also believe that is because I didn't really know any better because I was raised that way. Today I am proud that I have made such lifelong friends, friends of all races, ages, and sexual orientations.
This chapter gently introduces us to our program. Never will you see the phrase "you must..." or "we require..." everything in this book is merely a suggested way of living. There are no demands. There are no gimmicks. All you have to do is read the book and be willing.
The other part of this chapter that sticks out for me is the comparison of Dr.Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Oh how true that is. When we are sober, we are wonderful people. When we drink, well...we turn into monsters. When I drank I mostly drank alone and isolated, but I know for a fact that I was not a nice person when I did come into contact with others. It is amazing what sobriety can do for us!
Let's hear what you all have to say about this chapter.
Friend of Jimmy B
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 667
"That the man who is making the approach has had the same difficulty, that he obviously knows what he is talking about, that his whole deportment shouts at the new prospect that he is a man with a real answer, that he has no attitude of Holier Than Thou, nothing what* ever except the sincere desire to be helpful; that there are no fees to pay, no axes to grind, no people to please, no lectures to be endured—these are the conditions we have found most effective. After such an approach many take up their beds and walk again."
This is what got my attention when Cathy and Charlie, a couple of people I thought I had in common with, told me their stories. Many people told me I had a problem; family, girlfriends, boyfriends, doctors, teachers, police... None of them were able to get me to see past the next drink. But those two, they talked about THEIR drinking and I got that they got me. That's how it began for me and how I try to help the next one coming through the door.
-allan
This is what got my attention when Cathy and Charlie, a couple of people I thought I had in common with, told me their stories. Many people told me I had a problem; family, girlfriends, boyfriends, doctors, teachers, police... None of them were able to get me to see past the next drink. But those two, they talked about THEIR drinking and I got that they got me. That's how it began for me and how I try to help the next one coming through the door.
-allan
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
Originally Posted by CousinA
Here's a very early, maybe the first pamphlet on sponsorship edited by Dr, Bob and published by the Akron Group in 1940. A.A. History -- A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous - 1940
It was explained to me by some old timers I knew in NYC who were around in the early days that the term sponsor came about when hospitals would accept an alcoholic if a sober member of AA would sponsor them.
-allan
It was explained to me by some old timers I knew in NYC who were around in the early days that the term sponsor came about when hospitals would accept an alcoholic if a sober member of AA would sponsor them.
-allan
A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous, A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous and Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous
(Akron's King Elementary opens its doors one last time - News - Ohio ) .
http://hindsfoot.org/Akr2dRdr.pdf
Play - Love - Work - Alcoholics Anonymous..........
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
"The feeling of having shared in a common peril is one element in the powerful cement which binds us. But that in itself would never have held us together as we are now joined.
The tremendous fact for every one of us is that we have discovered a common solution. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action. This is the great news this book carries to those who suffer from alcoholism."
These are telling passages. It says in effect that the fellowship alone is not enough to save us. We seem to get best results from joining in the action. Kind of highlights the difference between going to AA, and joining AA.
The tremendous fact for every one of us is that we have discovered a common solution. We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action. This is the great news this book carries to those who suffer from alcoholism."
These are telling passages. It says in effect that the fellowship alone is not enough to save us. We seem to get best results from joining in the action. Kind of highlights the difference between going to AA, and joining AA.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
Originally Posted by CousinA
"That the man who is making the approach has had the same difficulty, that he obviously knows what he is talking about, that his whole deportment shouts at the new prospect that he is a man with a real answer, that he has no attitude of Holier Than Thou, nothing what* ever except the sincere desire to be helpful; that there are no fees to pay, no axes to grind, no people to please, no lectures to be endured—these are the conditions we have found most effective. After such an approach many take up their beds and walk again."
This is what got my attention when Cathy and Charlie, a couple of people I thought I had in common with, told me their stories. Many people told me I had a problem; family, girlfriends, boyfriends, doctors, teachers, police... None of them were able to get me to see past the next drink. But those two, they talked about THEIR drinking and I got that they got me. That's how it began for me and how I try to help the next one coming through the door.
-allan
This is what got my attention when Cathy and Charlie, a couple of people I thought I had in common with, told me their stories. Many people told me I had a problem; family, girlfriends, boyfriends, doctors, teachers, police... None of them were able to get me to see past the next drink. But those two, they talked about THEIR drinking and I got that they got me. That's how it began for me and how I try to help the next one coming through the door.
-allan
The man who is making the approach has had the same difficulty, that he obviously knows what he is talking about , ''his whole deportment shouts at the new prospect that he is a man with a real answer '' . etc
To me that segment illustrates that the visitor exudes quite confidence which enables the prospect to realize that there is an answer and also that his situation is not hopeless .
The AA visitor to me, has had a spiritual awakening and is therefore offering the newcomer the ''real deal '' a solution .
AA members who in my opinion that have had a spiritual experience are visible if you look for the signs , quite mostly , confident in sobriety , honest and very helpful especially if asked , and good listeners , which are qualities which come from practicing what they preach . take care.
Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .
If a man hears a different drummer ?let him march to the drum he hears !.
Friend of Jimmy B
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 667
Originally Posted by stevieg46
Hi Allan .
AA members who in my opinion that have had a spiritual experience are visible if you look for the signs , quite mostly , confident in sobriety , honest and very helpful especially if asked , and good listeners , which are qualities which come from practicing what they preach . take care.
AA members who in my opinion that have had a spiritual experience are visible if you look for the signs , quite mostly , confident in sobriety , honest and very helpful especially if asked , and good listeners , which are qualities which come from practicing what they preach . take care.
-allan
Peace, Love, Sobriety
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wilmington, DE
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I think what Stevie means is the folks you see doing the things they talk about doing are the ones who probably have some good spirituality. For example there are some folks out there who talk a big game up but then they don't really do all of those amazing things that they speak of. We all know a few. Lol. Then there are those who you can see doing those things and how it affects them and their health and you can see that they are a walking spiritual being.
That's how I found my sponsor. I would see her sitting with her eyes closed when someone was sharing, listening intently to them, every once in a while I would see her mouth silent prayers out if the person was sharing on something really troubling. She really seemed to be connected to something out there and I wanted some of it!
That's how I found my sponsor. I would see her sitting with her eyes closed when someone was sharing, listening intently to them, every once in a while I would see her mouth silent prayers out if the person was sharing on something really troubling. She really seemed to be connected to something out there and I wanted some of it!
Friend of Jimmy B
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 667
Yes, I get that and right there with you and Steve. I'd rather see a sermon than hear one. To bring it back to AA I'm much less interested in hearing people talking about the book and God or whatever than in seeing them in action. I want you to see my experience not hear my spiel. -a
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Well guys,
"If you are an alcoholic who wants to get over it, you may already be asking -"What do I have to do?"
It is the purpose of this book to answer such questions specifically. We shall tell you what we have done.
It seems we do need to tell what we have done as well as to be seen doing it, though that may have practical limits. Didn't we make an agreement with the God of our understanding that we would bear witness in step 3?
I like that passage because it does not say "we will tell you what to do or what you must do" All the way through the book is about what we did, and what we found we must do."
"If you are an alcoholic who wants to get over it, you may already be asking -"What do I have to do?"
It is the purpose of this book to answer such questions specifically. We shall tell you what we have done.
It seems we do need to tell what we have done as well as to be seen doing it, though that may have practical limits. Didn't we make an agreement with the God of our understanding that we would bear witness in step 3?
I like that passage because it does not say "we will tell you what to do or what you must do" All the way through the book is about what we did, and what we found we must do."
Friend of Jimmy B
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 667
For the most part none of us here get to see what we do. Just a fact in an online community. It's different in meatspace. We sit in meetings and hear some people say the words but that's all the have. Words. Anyway, that's my problem not theirs. I know what I have to do. Thanks, Mike.
-a
-a
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
Originally Posted by CousinA
For the most part none of us here get to see what we do. Just a fact in an online community. It's different in meatspace. We sit in meetings and hear some people say the words but that's all the have. Words. Anyway, that's my problem not theirs. I know what I have to do. Thanks, Mike.
-a
-a
Hi Allan .
The Words Are Easy but The Music is Much Harder .
Regards Stevie. recovered 12 03 2006
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