12th Step Question - Spiritual Awakening ?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
12th Step Question - Spiritual Awakening ?
Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps
That would be the first part of Step 12.
What kind of spiritual awakening do you think we are talking about here ?
From my studies I believe that a spiritual awakening is
the result of one being Born Again (bible term).
So, is one Born Again as the result of working these Steps ?
From what I've studied, seen and witnessed I would say not.
Please describe your spiritual awakening.
Was it the result of working the Steps ?
Or the result of something else ?
MountainmanBob
************************************************** ***************
I question this belated historical challenge, and the adequacy of the evidence on which it rests. For the challenges seem more calculated to lambaste the Oxford Group, the Bible, evangelical Christianity, and “religion” than to prove that these vital ingredients were never the heart of early New York’s recovery program. That their historical challenge deserves attention is not disputed by me– especially as I look at the secularization in the A.A. atmosphere of today. But these newly presented theories repudiate the foundation stones of A.A.’s Big Book premise. That premise is that you must establish a relationship with God by a conversion experience. That you do so by taking 12 life-changing steps. Many AAs have accepted that premise, and their stories are, in part, related in A.A.’s Came to Believe are neither factually substantiated nor historically reliable.
http://www.dickb.com/index.shtml; Alcoholics Anonymous: Dick B.'s Personal A.A. History Blog Site - History of Alcoholics Anonymous
That would be the first part of Step 12.
What kind of spiritual awakening do you think we are talking about here ?
From my studies I believe that a spiritual awakening is
the result of one being Born Again (bible term).
So, is one Born Again as the result of working these Steps ?
From what I've studied, seen and witnessed I would say not.
Please describe your spiritual awakening.
Was it the result of working the Steps ?
Or the result of something else ?
MountainmanBob
************************************************** ***************
I question this belated historical challenge, and the adequacy of the evidence on which it rests. For the challenges seem more calculated to lambaste the Oxford Group, the Bible, evangelical Christianity, and “religion” than to prove that these vital ingredients were never the heart of early New York’s recovery program. That their historical challenge deserves attention is not disputed by me– especially as I look at the secularization in the A.A. atmosphere of today. But these newly presented theories repudiate the foundation stones of A.A.’s Big Book premise. That premise is that you must establish a relationship with God by a conversion experience. That you do so by taking 12 life-changing steps. Many AAs have accepted that premise, and their stories are, in part, related in A.A.’s Came to Believe are neither factually substantiated nor historically reliable.
http://www.dickb.com/index.shtml; Alcoholics Anonymous: Dick B.'s Personal A.A. History Blog Site - History of Alcoholics Anonymous
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
Just food for thought here -- seeking the truth
The A.A. Big Book states:
We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of the Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men. When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God.”9 (emphasis added)
And yet, the Lord specifically warns against the broad way:
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. (Matthew 7:13)
We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of the Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men. When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God.”9 (emphasis added)
And yet, the Lord specifically warns against the broad way:
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. (Matthew 7:13)
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
"Having had a spiritual EXPERIENCE as the result of these steps,..."
In the two years between the first and second printings, the word "experience" in the Twelfth Step was discussed at length. As time went by, letters from alcoholics started to come in to the main office from people who did the work out of the Big Book and did NOT have the "White Light" spiritual experience that Bill Wilson had. They were writing to see if the more gradual spiritual awakening that they were having meant that they could not recover from alcoholism. This was the reason for adding Appendix II. Eventually the word "experience" was replaced with the word "awakening" in the Twelfth Step. The Big Book authors made this modification in order to include those whose lives had truly changed, but more slowly over a period of time.
Index of AA History Pages on Barefoot's Domain
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That white light experience kind of scares me.
We will also hear the term "rocketed into the fourth dimension."
I think that I went there enough times when I was drinking and using !
MB
In the two years between the first and second printings, the word "experience" in the Twelfth Step was discussed at length. As time went by, letters from alcoholics started to come in to the main office from people who did the work out of the Big Book and did NOT have the "White Light" spiritual experience that Bill Wilson had. They were writing to see if the more gradual spiritual awakening that they were having meant that they could not recover from alcoholism. This was the reason for adding Appendix II. Eventually the word "experience" was replaced with the word "awakening" in the Twelfth Step. The Big Book authors made this modification in order to include those whose lives had truly changed, but more slowly over a period of time.
Index of AA History Pages on Barefoot's Domain
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That white light experience kind of scares me.
We will also hear the term "rocketed into the fourth dimension."
I think that I went there enough times when I was drinking and using !
MB
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by Mountainmanbob 
...
Please describe your spiritual awakening.
Was it the result of working the Steps ?
Or the result of something else ?
Please describe your spiritual awakening.
Was it the result of working the Steps ?
Or the result of something else ?
Not only had I not done the steps I didn't know the BB existed.
What was given to me as I left that meeting was a copy of the Living Sober text.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Hills of Pennsylvania
Posts: 28
Yea, I had a spiritual awakening and it was the result of working the steps and being guided by people with more experience.
For me, the awakening was and continues to be, that inviting and trusting in a power greater than myself would bring about a profound positive change in how I see and respond to the world.
I had to finish the steps to experience this. It is something I searched for my whole life. It's been incredible and something to continue growing in.
Peace.
For me, the awakening was and continues to be, that inviting and trusting in a power greater than myself would bring about a profound positive change in how I see and respond to the world.
I had to finish the steps to experience this. It is something I searched for my whole life. It's been incredible and something to continue growing in.
Peace.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
room for much discussion
Originally Posted by direwolf
Yea, I had a spiritual awakening and it was the result of working the steps
I had to finish the steps to experience this.
Does a person have to work the Steps so as to have a spiritual awakening ?
If so, what did people do before AA in 1935 ?
What is a spiritual awakening ?
I guess there is room for much discussion there ??
MB
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,902
Does a person have to work the Steps so as to have a spiritual awakening ?
I see this as a 2 fold answer
normal people,I say no but a very sick alcoholic like I was,I would say,the steps are a process and it was the best thing in my life.The steps are a vehicle,a path to God for me.
ty Bob
I see this as a 2 fold answer
normal people,I say no but a very sick alcoholic like I was,I would say,the steps are a process and it was the best thing in my life.The steps are a vehicle,a path to God for me.
ty Bob
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
A "spiritual experience" can be pretty much whatever I want it to be. A beautiful sunset or sunrise. Nature in general produces some of the neatest spiritual experiences I can think of. Laying eyes on a new born baby, praying and having the prayer be answered.
A "spiritual awakening" on the other hand, came to me in several stages you might say. My first AA meeting left me excited at the prospect of being sober, of making new friends, from hearing things I thought were only particular to me and realizing I'm not the only one who's done those things, thought those things and acted in those ways. As time went on and I started working the steps, I got excited because I was able to talk about working the steps and how I worked them because I'd worked them. This made me feel like I was a part of the AA program; a certified member if you will. I think the greatest spiritual awakening for me was when I was able to share my experience with a newcomer and see that light go on in his eyes; like it must have gone on in mine when I walked out of that first meeting. An awakening of (my spirit), caused by the realization that I asked my higher power to keep me sober, just for today and it worked! I felt connected to my higher power. I think I always believed in a higher power but it took a while for me to "trust" that He would do for me what I couldn't do for myself. When I felt that trust, it was powerful.
A "spiritual awakening" on the other hand, came to me in several stages you might say. My first AA meeting left me excited at the prospect of being sober, of making new friends, from hearing things I thought were only particular to me and realizing I'm not the only one who's done those things, thought those things and acted in those ways. As time went on and I started working the steps, I got excited because I was able to talk about working the steps and how I worked them because I'd worked them. This made me feel like I was a part of the AA program; a certified member if you will. I think the greatest spiritual awakening for me was when I was able to share my experience with a newcomer and see that light go on in his eyes; like it must have gone on in mine when I walked out of that first meeting. An awakening of (my spirit), caused by the realization that I asked my higher power to keep me sober, just for today and it worked! I felt connected to my higher power. I think I always believed in a higher power but it took a while for me to "trust" that He would do for me what I couldn't do for myself. When I felt that trust, it was powerful.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
Hi Bob .
Good question , direct and specific instructions in the AA Big Book and 100 % effort promise and delivers a spiritual experience as the 12 step says .
I don' t believe trying to describe a ''spiritual experience '' is wholly possible , I believe if you don't believe what you ''hear '' then believe what ''you see '' my wife and family could answer this better than I , same with sobriety a new way of life really cannot be described as it sometimes can come across as someones opinion as how it should be . As you know a new way of life must ''be lived ''
I always get a lump in my throat when I hear ''Amazing Grace '' because I was totally lost and now I m found , was blind and now I see .
That is the best expression of a '' spiritual awakening '' I have ever heard . I at one time used to get very involved in early AA history Oxford group and so on from Ebby to Bill and so on , being honest and looking back I think I was looking for hints and clues outside of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous , from a personal point of view it gives me some knowledge of AA history but its not really helpful in the 12 step program . take care .
Regards .
Stevie
Good question , direct and specific instructions in the AA Big Book and 100 % effort promise and delivers a spiritual experience as the 12 step says .
I don' t believe trying to describe a ''spiritual experience '' is wholly possible , I believe if you don't believe what you ''hear '' then believe what ''you see '' my wife and family could answer this better than I , same with sobriety a new way of life really cannot be described as it sometimes can come across as someones opinion as how it should be . As you know a new way of life must ''be lived ''
I always get a lump in my throat when I hear ''Amazing Grace '' because I was totally lost and now I m found , was blind and now I see .
That is the best expression of a '' spiritual awakening '' I have ever heard . I at one time used to get very involved in early AA history Oxford group and so on from Ebby to Bill and so on , being honest and looking back I think I was looking for hints and clues outside of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous , from a personal point of view it gives me some knowledge of AA history but its not really helpful in the 12 step program . take care .
Regards .
Stevie
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: glasgow scotland
Posts: 1,004
Hi Bob I believe that a re-birth of ones spirit is a spiritual experience, not born again as that is a religious term .
I know about, 6 steps came from the Oxford Group ( a religious movement) rumored other 6 steps came from ''Sermon on the Mount'' biblical.
I firmly believe that in the collective wisdom of earlier members who went chopping n changing the Steps and putting together the Big Book made every effort to dis-engage with the Oxford group and every effort to dis-engage with religious faiths . Hence the ''Power Greater'' than ourselves, leading to God '' as we understand him '' in the 3 rd step .
It is only my opinion but I feel perhaps a small mistake may have been made in using the word '' Him '' as it suggests male as in Father Son n Holy Spirit ( only opinion ) or that it points towards ''Christianity '' Now, I am christian not that it matters, and I have nothing against religion .
Preamble ( introduction ) clearly states AA is a fellowship etc etc etc to not'' allied'' to any ''sect '' ''denomination '' or institution , do not support any '' causes '' I believe the intention was for Alcoholics Anonymous to be a '' Spiritual '' program not christian or any other religion of which there are quite a few .
Sadly today ( in my opinion ) these Traditions and Guidelines are not being adhered to I have been in meetings in the UK where they end the meeting with the ''Lords Prayer '' adopted by christian faiths (historically it is not even Christian it is Hebrew, Jesus was a Jew ) Serenity prayer I believe is very very appropriate and very acceptable but some do object I have seen this.
Been at meetings where people openly speak about ''Jesus '' and the Catholic Faith , this in my opinion is all wrong . What about the Newcomers first meeting ? we do not get two chances of a first impression , I have said my piece regarding this and some AA members replies have been '' you need to keep an open mind and live and let live '' sadly it only rationalizes and justifies their actions and they simply continue with these practices .
That is why some people get very very disillusioned with AA and start calling it a '' religious sect '' and it only adds fuel to the fire to Anti AA programs .
Today in this day and age themed meetings can be opened with approval from AA service board , there a ''Gay '' Women '' Police '' ''Celebrity '' Alanon , and some others so a '' Christian '' meeting could easily be arranged .
Our personal recovery depends upon AA unity , but if any one has a preference for religious beliefs or whatever, they are obviously entitled to live their lives and enhance their recovery as they see fit ! but we should all keep it simple as intended, and leave'' outside issues'' at the door ( rant over ) ha ha , take care .
Regard .
Stevie.
I know about, 6 steps came from the Oxford Group ( a religious movement) rumored other 6 steps came from ''Sermon on the Mount'' biblical.
I firmly believe that in the collective wisdom of earlier members who went chopping n changing the Steps and putting together the Big Book made every effort to dis-engage with the Oxford group and every effort to dis-engage with religious faiths . Hence the ''Power Greater'' than ourselves, leading to God '' as we understand him '' in the 3 rd step .
It is only my opinion but I feel perhaps a small mistake may have been made in using the word '' Him '' as it suggests male as in Father Son n Holy Spirit ( only opinion ) or that it points towards ''Christianity '' Now, I am christian not that it matters, and I have nothing against religion .
Preamble ( introduction ) clearly states AA is a fellowship etc etc etc to not'' allied'' to any ''sect '' ''denomination '' or institution , do not support any '' causes '' I believe the intention was for Alcoholics Anonymous to be a '' Spiritual '' program not christian or any other religion of which there are quite a few .
Sadly today ( in my opinion ) these Traditions and Guidelines are not being adhered to I have been in meetings in the UK where they end the meeting with the ''Lords Prayer '' adopted by christian faiths (historically it is not even Christian it is Hebrew, Jesus was a Jew ) Serenity prayer I believe is very very appropriate and very acceptable but some do object I have seen this.
Been at meetings where people openly speak about ''Jesus '' and the Catholic Faith , this in my opinion is all wrong . What about the Newcomers first meeting ? we do not get two chances of a first impression , I have said my piece regarding this and some AA members replies have been '' you need to keep an open mind and live and let live '' sadly it only rationalizes and justifies their actions and they simply continue with these practices .
That is why some people get very very disillusioned with AA and start calling it a '' religious sect '' and it only adds fuel to the fire to Anti AA programs .
Today in this day and age themed meetings can be opened with approval from AA service board , there a ''Gay '' Women '' Police '' ''Celebrity '' Alanon , and some others so a '' Christian '' meeting could easily be arranged .
Our personal recovery depends upon AA unity , but if any one has a preference for religious beliefs or whatever, they are obviously entitled to live their lives and enhance their recovery as they see fit ! but we should all keep it simple as intended, and leave'' outside issues'' at the door ( rant over ) ha ha , take care .
Regard .
Stevie.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
hopefully to be more open minded
Originally Posted by stevieg46
we should all keep it simple as intended, and leave'' outside issues'' at the door ( rant over ) ha ha , take care .
Stevie
Although at times I just throw these things out for discussion.
If for no one else, they help me to learn a little more.
And hopefully at the end of the day to be more open minded .
You have shared with us an excellent post.
M-Bob
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Great topic MMB
What kind of spiritual awakening do you think we are talking about here?
There are many types of spiritual experiences. I would not limit my view of them to those of a "born again" nature. The book "The Varieties of Religious Experience" by William James is a very nice treatment of this subject. It was a book read by Bill W. very early in his recovery.
Please describe your spiritual awakening. I've done so in this past thread. http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...xperience.html
Was it the result of working the Steps ? Or the result of something else ?
These are most important questions. It is my belief that a spiritual experience is the direct result of seeking. I believe that truth is presented to each person in direct proportion to the degree to which they seek it. I did not receive answers until I intensely sought them. The steps IMO are only one method of seeking, albeit a very effective one.
What is a spiritual awakening? I like Carl Jung's description of it in his letter to Bill. He refers to it as a "higher understanding".
I also like what Jung had to say about the different ways of obtaining a spiritual experience. "The only right and legitimate way to such an experience is that it happens to you in reality and it can only happen to you when you walk on a path which leads you to higher understanding. You might be led to that goal by an act of grace or through a personal and honest contact with friends, or through a higher education of the mind beyond the confines of mere rationalism."
What kind of spiritual awakening do you think we are talking about here?
There are many types of spiritual experiences. I would not limit my view of them to those of a "born again" nature. The book "The Varieties of Religious Experience" by William James is a very nice treatment of this subject. It was a book read by Bill W. very early in his recovery.
Please describe your spiritual awakening. I've done so in this past thread. http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...xperience.html
Was it the result of working the Steps ? Or the result of something else ?
These are most important questions. It is my belief that a spiritual experience is the direct result of seeking. I believe that truth is presented to each person in direct proportion to the degree to which they seek it. I did not receive answers until I intensely sought them. The steps IMO are only one method of seeking, albeit a very effective one.
What is a spiritual awakening? I like Carl Jung's description of it in his letter to Bill. He refers to it as a "higher understanding".
I also like what Jung had to say about the different ways of obtaining a spiritual experience. "The only right and legitimate way to such an experience is that it happens to you in reality and it can only happen to you when you walk on a path which leads you to higher understanding. You might be led to that goal by an act of grace or through a personal and honest contact with friends, or through a higher education of the mind beyond the confines of mere rationalism."
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
I think AA history is pretty clear on where this began and what it means:
AA History - The First Links In The Chain
William James tackles the subject pretty well, to my mind, and his work undoubtedly influenced Bills thinking and the early Fellowship. Appendix 2 "Spiritual Experience" covers more ground as time went on.
I myself have experienced a "drastic rearrangement" first hand and witnessed many 2nd hand, in many different forms.
Change and rearrangement seem to be the key, often in ways that couldn't have been imagined
P
AA History - The First Links In The Chain
After telling Rowland H. that he could never regain his position in society, Dr. Carl Jung, the renowned Swiss psychiatrist, was asked, "Is there no* exceptions?"
"Yes," replied Dr. Jung, "there is. Exceptions to cases such as yours have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences." He went on to describe a spiritual experience as "To me these occurrences are phenomena. They appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements. Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them" (pages 26/27 in the "Big Book" Alcoholics Anonymous).
The doctor admitted his failure in bringing about this psychic change and dashed water on Rowland's hope that his past strong religious convictions could alone bring on a "vital spiritual experience".
"Yes," replied Dr. Jung, "there is. Exceptions to cases such as yours have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences." He went on to describe a spiritual experience as "To me these occurrences are phenomena. They appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements. Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them" (pages 26/27 in the "Big Book" Alcoholics Anonymous).
The doctor admitted his failure in bringing about this psychic change and dashed water on Rowland's hope that his past strong religious convictions could alone bring on a "vital spiritual experience".
I myself have experienced a "drastic rearrangement" first hand and witnessed many 2nd hand, in many different forms.
Change and rearrangement seem to be the key, often in ways that couldn't have been imagined
P
Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 765
I had a spiritual experience when I woke up in the hospital after a suicide attempt. I was 8 y sober. I won't describe it because it was personal, I'll just say it was the first time I saw myself through God's eyes, even though I couldn't verbalize that at the time.
Right after that I worked the steps and had a spiritual awakening . That was a profound shift in my view and experience of God, myself and others.
We have a huge shift from hatred to love for our fellow man. That's the change.
Right after that I worked the steps and had a spiritual awakening . That was a profound shift in my view and experience of God, myself and others.
We have a huge shift from hatred to love for our fellow man. That's the change.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
My spiritual awaking was when
the Holy Spirit gave me a new heart
the devil was no longer my father
God was now my Father.
Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone
I did nothing except repent and believe.
MM
the Holy Spirit gave me a new heart
the devil was no longer my father
God was now my Father.
Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone
I did nothing except repent and believe.
MM
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Originally Posted by Mountainmanbob
My spiritual awaking was when
the Holy Spirit gave me a new heart
the devil was no longer my father
God was now my Father.
Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone
I did nothing except repent and believe.
MM
the Holy Spirit gave me a new heart
the devil was no longer my father
God was now my Father.
Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone
I did nothing except repent and believe.
MM
P
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
