PAC86

arguments? I am referring to the one I posted about. I have been reading some of his literature and will admit that he makes some good points. Things that I may even incorporate into my program of recovery. I can't say that I agree with everything he argues. I can also say that he seems to contradict himself at times. He claims he values nothing taught to him by AA but uses ideas such as acceptance and forgiving the past in his very program of recovery. In spite of that I still feel that he does in fact have some good ideas and valid arguements.

I feel that his perspective is the result of the negative actions of some people in AA and he mistakenly believed that their actions were the result of the AA program. For example, the wing nuts in AA who play doctor and psychologist. He clearly despises such individuals as do I. In fact I suffered from mental health problems for the first 2.5 years of my recovery and waited so long to seek help because I was under the impression that AA frowned on psych meds and my mental health issues were the result of me not working the program correctly. I think we have all met wing nut AA psychiatrists. They believe Step 2 cures mental health problems and inaccurately label mental health issues as "defects of character. " Such jackassery can seriously damage people. Yes, I have a resentment against wanna be psychiatrists in AA and I am not letting go of it.

He also seems to despise the predatory sex deviants in AA. I personally have noticed that in some areas there is an abundance of sex predators in the rooms. I haven't noticed any in my current area but the town I got sober in had a lot of creepers and pervs who preyed on newcomers. There was a notorious chicken hawker who liked young men and plenty of predators who liked the ladies. I do know that in some areas AA members make an effort to chase off predators but in some areas they do not and some of those predators are even looked upon as respected members of the AA community because they have a lot of sober time (or so they claim).

He also despises the chaotic rehab industry. Since most people in that field are members of 12 steps programs(or so they claim) he seems to feel that it is our fault for the ****** things that go on. My personal adventures in the rehab industry also left me bitter. It was my experience that there are a lot of sick, greedy, dry drunks in the addiction treatment field. I can honestly say that working in the addiction treatment field was one of the worst things I ever experienced. It has been my experience that most rehabs are understaffed and most of the staff is under qualified to deal with the unique problems of every patient. Most rehabs are operated like factories that process patients in one side and out the other without addressing their individual needs and unique circumstances.

I could go on but don't feel like typing any more. If I see this guy at the SMART recovery meeting maybe I will strike up and friendly conservation with him and ask to hear some more of his views in an attempted to better understand his perspective.

Yes, I know it looks like I am being critical of others in this post. However, I am only doing so in order to better understand someone's perspective. I am in the process of trying to understand someones logic so that I may maintain a peaceful coexistence with him and myself.

Dave42001

Your comments regarding the rehab factories is right on the money!

I only have to pay $12 a week for 6 hours of treatment 6 days a week. I usually go in 30 minutes before early for treatment 5 days a week or 2.5 hours and talk with my Sponsor or fellowship for free.. I keep going back and stay sober everyday..

PAC86

Unfortunately I think the rehab business gets mistakenly labeled as the creation of AA as most rehabs encourage AA as treatment. Therefore any shady stuff that goes on at rehab is than mistakenly viewed as something AA did. This anti-AA guy also disproves of the court system mandating AA meeting g attendance. That is a violation of a citizens rights according to the lower federal courts but he mistakenly believes that members of AA some how encourage the court system to mandate meeting attendance which is untrue.

dox

Please don't go on, PAC86.

Perhaps you should talk to this person if you want to understand . . .

But continuing to air views that are critical of AA, even if you say that you disagree with them, is not supportive.

IMHO, the debate that you are attempting to create here does not belong here: the Alcoholism - 12 Step Support Forum.

Rhetorical question:
If you want to discuss someone else's views, why not do it in a forum where that person will respond?


Yes, I know that this looks like I might wish to engage in a discussion about your post.
But, thankfully, I now know when I have said enough.

MIRecovery

I prefer to stay in solutions not problems. If he has a solution by all means learn about it and post about it.

I remember complaining about an aspect of AA to my sponsor. He said, "AA has been getting people sober for 80 years and has done just fine without your input. "

All I can say is I know 50+ people with 10+ years sobriety that are the happiest most content people I know

Berrybean

http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_tradition10.pdf

Tommyh

I have found the big book,and AA has enough in it to keep me sober,busy,and happiness is a good reward.

PAC86

I wasn't attempting to create a debate I was merely sharing that I had a revelation and I can see why he feels the way he does. Unless someone on here is a wannabe psychiatrist, sex predator, or rehab tycoon I can't see how my views are offensive. Furthermore, AA psychiatrists and sex predators in the rooms are not outside issues. I have seen such madness in meetings and members of AA should probably address that. Only the rehab industry is an outside issue but members of AA who work in or own treatment centers should probably realize that their work does in fact effect AA. Also, trying to better understand his perspective is part of my program. I am doing step work. I am looking at my part in my conflict with him and trying to better understand him so I don't run into conflict with him in the future. That SMART meeting was started by a women who seems to admire him and I can't go there if I run into conflict with him or her. I should try to address my conflicting views ahead of time as I am doing.

Berrybean

Why not just accept that some people don't agree with you and that is okay. Differences of opinion are no reason for any conflict. People disagree all the time. It's no biggie.

PAC86

I could do that but this incident got me thinking and I am fascinate by this anti-AA movement.

silentrun

You are making progress in that you recognize that it isn't as simple black and white as you first thought. I think you are still screwing up by trying to imagine what his viewpoint is. Just ask him because so far the only thing you have come up with is your own viewpoints again. I honestly do think though that you are starting to get to the root of why that situation got to you.

ScottFromWI

There will always be people who are anti- anything. And each one will have a different reason why. To be blunt, you are wasting your time when you could be focusing on taking better care of yourself. And frankly you are wasting the time of the forum members by arguing unanswerable questions. This is a forum based on support, and this particular sub forum is based on 12 step support, not those that don't agree with it.

Part of any sobriety method is first accepting your addiction, and then accepting that the plan or method will work as it exists if you follow it.

AAaaron

Its strange how much anti AA there is in the 12 step section....SR really doesnt do it for me anymore.....

Later,I think Ill go to AA,NA meetings and leave the internet to lazy weirdos.....

AAaaron

Its really strange how much anti AA there seems to be in a 12 step section of a recovery website.

This website is lacking very much in anything useful or powerful for people in 12 step programs....

SR really should have a 12 step?section,where people who dont agree with AA can go and whine,complain,argue.
It seems like people just spinning their wheels on this site,I dont see anything useful here anymore.


Im out,

Dee74

I'm sorry you feel that way Aaron. There will always be a range of views here.
I think the responses here show a very healthy recovery to me.

Most people know this I think but if you think anything breaks the rules:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ting-tips.html

please report it by using the button.

This site is enormous now - that's both great and not so great - the forum staff rely a great deal on you guys to let us know when there's a problem.

Thanks

Dee
Moderator
SR

Berrybean

Most of the negative stuff tend to come from the same few people AAron. There are some long term members who rarely start their own threads - it'd be lovely to hear some positive messages from those people.

It's also worth noting that '12-step' is not exclusively AA - many groups use 12-step recovery. And AAers can be found on most areas of the forum. I tend to use the Newcomers and Alcoholics sub-forums more regularly than just the 12-step one.

And if there is someone who's special brand of negative or similar you could especially do without in your life, you can just click on their name, and select 'Add X to your ignore list'. I'm sad to say that I finally resorted to that particular course of action myself yesterday.

uncle holmes

I'm an AA supporter and consider AA and God as saving my life. With that being said I also believe in a democracy. If everyone was the same it would be boring and not much of a challenge.

I consider myself a good listener. I do it at work, with my family, with politics, sports, movies, forums..........To me that's the best time to choose my beliefs that I think are true and false.

Every meeting I've ever been to has never said people should not get medical or psychological help if needed along with treatment for alcoholism. In fact I'm pretty sure the BB mentions it somewhere if someone wants to research it.

If someone has mental health problems and shared it at the meeting that they also take antidepressants then that would be a separate issue. In fact working the 12 steps combined with seeing a therapist can be a very powerful combo!

Fenian_Man

Strictly my own opinion of the Orange Papers dude:

We come because we are sick. People who work the Steps get better, and they show up in a more healthy way. But in AA, everyone is free to get as well as they want, and some folks retain unhealthy and hurtful traits.

This is true of EVERY healing discipline in psychology, including REBT.

I have read the Orange papers stuff that is online, at least as of a few years ago, and I find it unconvincing. The author's evidence is cherry-picked and anecdotal, and his bias is evident from the start. There is, and has been, clinical evidence of AA's effectiveness. Here is one link:

Alcoholics anonymous involvement and positive alcohol-related outcomes: cause, consequence, or just a correlate? A prospective 2-year study of 2,31... - PubMed - NCBI

I found that in Bing, using search terms "Pub Med Alcoholics Anonymous". I searched on "Pub Med Smart Recovery" and found a study comparing attitudes of AA's and Smart Recovery folks.

So I am curious, Pac: In your research, have you found independent peer-reviewed studies of Smart Recovery? I just looked at their own page and the studies they cite say they are about as effective as AA, not more effective.

So if the Orange Paper guy says AA is ineffective, and Smart Recovery says it is as effective as AA, I guess it comes down to where you spend your time.

ScottFromWI

I think the point has been made on both sides of the fence here folks, let's move on and work on what we are all really here for.