paulokes

Hey Miami...oftentimes I think people end up arguing where there is no argument

There is not, and never was any argument from me.

I would not be where I am without the aid and understanding of many folks I met along the way, during my recovery. Connection with other human beings is one of the most important things in my life today...and conversely it was one of the things I found almost impossible before I got sober.

You have some really valid points...in my opinion...for what it's worth To me...and that's all that matters to me...I get what "beyond human aid" means. So many friends, family, employers, doctors etc etc have made themselves ill through the years trying to "understand" an alcoholic better. Of course, understanding, empathy, acceptance...these things are crucial in long term recovery. But if someone doesn't want to, or can't stop drinking...they just become 'Enabling'. That's just one of the many ways to understand that phrase, in my opinion.

The language of the Big Book, to me, takes a little decoding. One of them books you read with your heart and your experience, not your head And the beauty is it means something a little different to everyone

Sorry if there was something in my first comment that troubled you. But I was fine with what I said...and I certainly wasn't telling anyone else 'how it is'

You have a great day

P

skg

When I arrived in AA, I wasn't looking for Human Aid. I wasn't looking for anything, really, but I'd run out of ideas of how to live.

Beyond Human Aid, to me, means:
GOD as I understand Him, and the Gift Of Desperation to listen to the Group Of Drunks I found myself surrounded me long enough to Get Over Drinking.

Dissected, none of these really seem supernatural, however, I never could have assembled them myself, so I'll accept that a power greater than myself alone is capable of orchestrating all of them for little ole me to get sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety--with all the others who do so.

I understand MiamiFella's interpretation and would just add it into the equation. God will not do for me what I can do for myself, and that includes ASKING for help. I only learned that in AA...

miamifella

It is not my interpretation. It is what I was told by sponsors, old-timers, and heard at meetings.

I am glad that people are not agreeing with it. As I said earlier, it is a big part of why I had to leave AA. It was said to be against the first step and completely outside a good program. Not relying on human aid is supposed to bring you closer to your higher power, but it just brought me closer to my drug dealer.

I disagree with the teaching about human aid heartily, and am glad that the attitude on human aid seems to be changing in the program. I think this change means more help for more people.

PAC86

I was beyond human aid. No human power could relieve me of my insanity. When I was 24 I ran off to the army thinking it would keep me sober. It didn't. I got kicked out for drug abuse before I even finished training. Now lets put things into perspective. The US military is probably the most powerful and sophisticated in the world. Our military can demolish entire nations and permanently alter the course of history. However, it could not keep me sober. My Drill Sergeants were some pretty tough guys. They had done multiple deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan. They probably did take human life at some point. Many of them were airborne, ranger, SF ect. They used to threaten me because I kept getting in trouble after I failed a urine analysis. They told me not to screw around any more. However, I was not intimidated by them and they could not stand in the way of my using. The obsession to use was stronger than them.

skg

You are allowed to have your own opinions. I don't happen to subscribe to them and you don't have to defend them. AA, for me, is about changing my perspective and allowing others to have their own.

I also don't have to explain my position--I learned that in AA and Al-Anon. There are many ways to get sober; there are fewer ways to STAY sober. Don't let others' opinions define who you are, but don't let your delimit who are are, either. Opinions are not facts.

Have a Grace-Full day!

miamifella

I am fascinated that so many people here are describing human aid as threats, medicine, etc. rather than support, advise, encouragement. I guess if that is your experience with people, the tough love of AA makes sense.

We come from so many different places and experiences.

Aellyce

Human aid is what I am aware I have been using to get and remain sober. I am never one to rule out the possibility of other "forces" that I have no perception of, it's just that I have never particularly felt connected that way in my life (I did investigate it though when younger).

The kind of thing that goes beyond simple human aid for me usually is my intuition, and I have always used it a lot to my benefit as a sober person. Typically I feel I am easily able to analyze and identify where these feelings and instincts come from within myself and from how I interact with the larger picture of life, but it's also true that there have been some cases and situations in my life (including in my recent sober life) when things have seemed to come together in seemingly so perfect ways that I can't help but do wonder whether it's just that initially I am not aware of some components of my choices and become conscious of them later in the process, or something more than this... I don't know. I have always kept an open mind to the unknown in many ways throughout my life, but don't usually feel comfortable making statements on it before I experience it clearly (which does not necessarily mean external evidence, I can be quite comfortable with my own feelings too).

paulokes

With the greatest respect Miami, I think you're allowing your opinions and experience to colour what you think other people are saying here.

Is what it is...sure we'd have a more interesting conversation face to face though

Enjoy your day

P

miamifella

I went back and do see that you talk about love and understanding. I think I glossed over it and focused on tables and money---which to me is something very different and I still find it odd that you lump them together. Some else talked about getting threatened by military officers as human aid--which I would not call "aid." But it was in line with what I got from AA, so I got a little insight into why this approach does work for many people.

I think we are different. I did need love and understanding, which conflicted with the 12-step approach. Reading here, I see many people are getting love and understanding in AA--which I think is great. It is not the program that I know, and contradicts the first step as I learned it--but I think it would have saved me years of pain if I had found a groups like this.

I have to admit that I included my location in my name in the hopes of meeting people face to face. I think there is something in that that is not possible online.

During my years in 12-step programs I kept looking for someone I could talk with about the difficulties I had in recovery. Eventually, I was tired of being told that this was wrong so I left and started sharing with friends. This is when I finally found recovery and was able to stay clean and sober without relapse.

I still occasionally get in touch with my sponsor who still tells me that I am doing it all wrong. I hope as the years go by he sees that maybe wrong is right for me.

skg

I find this troubling because the 12 Steps, in my experience, taught me how to love--both myself and others--rather than the experiences you share. I will apologize for those bastards myself because that is NOT the AA that got me sober nor is it the one I call 'safe.' People in the groups that I attended would say, "Let us love you until you can love yourself."

I get out what I put in--that is a guarantee from an even Bigger Book (Bible). AA's text is a derivative of a few books within the New Testament (according to Dr. Bob). If you look at the Promises of AA, you may just find some things you still want--things that we have like Patience, Tolerance, Love and Acceptance. These are not mutually exclusive principles for better living... Folding this back in, they were spiritual principles I learned only AFTER getting to AA, and learning about reconciliation, relationship, and understanding of a spiritual awakening.

Anyway, I hope you keep coming back and asking questions and find an even better YOU along the way. Your experience can differ and still be correct.

Ken33xx

O.k. I can understand that. You question aspects of a 12-step program and it`s possible others in the group might begin to feel uneasy. It`s also been my experience that meetings are often little fiefdoms with a few select leaders.

Yet, meetings do vary and I`ve always been able to find ones I felt comfortable attending.

Who was telling you were wrong all the time?

Your sponsor or was this the general vibe you found at meetings?

miamifella

Ken33xx--

I really must disagree with you. You claim I questioned the program when I ask someone to talk to me when I felt urges. But I do not think that asking for help is questioning the program. It is just a request for help. Maybe it would be better to pray, but not everyone is at a point when prayer can help and I think it is wrong to take away their hope for recovery.

I do not think asking for help should ever be discouraged, and it does make me sad when you and others in the program claim it is "bad recovery" or "questioning the program."

I really believe that we can help each other. It is okay for me if you think you are powerless to help other addicts/alcoholics. But I do not think it is right to claim that people who ask for help are questioning the foundations and harming your recovery. Just say you cannot help and leave it at that.

I have attended at least 30 different groups, so I know how different they can be. But I have never found that any group was dominated by a few select leaders. I am not sure why that would matter.

As I said earlier, I do occasionally contact my old sponsor and he says that I am wrong in my approach to recovery. He takes powerless very seriously, so he always is sure to tell me that any help I get from a person is going to send me out again. As I said earlier, I hope one day he can looks at my "wrong recovery" and realize that it is right for me.

Ken33xx

O.k. my mistake. Wrong choice of words


I agree. What kind of help you were you asking for at meetings which others might have felt were questioning the foundations (12-steps?) and harming your recovery?

miamifella

"I am afraid I might use tonight. Can we go somewhere or talk till I get past this urge."

To be fair, I understand that they could not help if they truly followed the program. But I think it is best to simply say "no I cannot help" and save any further discussion for a time when the person asking for help is not in crisis.

But that is just my opinion.

Ken33xx

Personally, I find nothing unusual about asking for such help at all.



Why do you feel they couldn`t help you if they were truly following the program?

You were asking to talk with someone when you had the urge to use. Nothing unusual about such a request.

miamifella

The first step.

And the BB.

Ken33xx

O.k. I`m sorry you had a difficult time finding someone to just listen when you felt an urge to use.

miamifella

I am not out to mess with anyone's program. I would never ask someone in AA or any 12-step program for this kind of help.

But to be honest, I have to say that getting this kind of help from non-addicts made all the difference to me. And I do not think it is right to condemn this kind of help.

AA does seem to be changing in its view of this. So lets look back after a decade and see if y'all feel differently.

Ken33xx

Of course not.

O.k. but I don`t see how listening to someone with an urge to drink/use would potentially mess up another's program.

miamifella

Now you say "of course not" but earlier you said it was "questioning the program" then said it was a bad choice of words. But even with you dial back on the word choice, this does get interpreted as a condemnation.

Maybe it is not intentional, but for those of us in the program who need/seek this kind of aid the implication that we are "less than" is damaging to our recovery--and I would say more damaging than the request for help was to yours.

AA is clearly not the right place for us, but I think that an assertion of your belief in your powerlessness does not have to rob others of their hope for recovery.