skg

I will argue this until the cows come home, though... I'm proof. It's as the result of working the steps that I've had a spiritual awakening, the foundation for a psychic change and a relationship with God as I understand Him. In Christ. I won't argue what Man's nature is before God, nor the efficacy of a relationship that includes Christ. Simply, "The spiritual life is not a theory, we have to live it."

I think I understand the comment, but AA saved my life and it's changed in such dramatic fashion that I have to insist that the experience in AA is directly proportional to the amount of effort one puts in... That's my experience of the softer, easier way...

2muchpain

I understand what you are saying. AA has saved many lives. There's no doubt about it. I see it all the time. Unfortunately, it's hard to know who really follows the 12 steps and who doesn't. I have seen people who can recite a page in the BB who sound well grounded in the program that will take you for everything you got. There are many good people I have met in AA, but unfortunately, I wouldn't trust them with a dime. To expect the people in AA to be any different than the people you would meet elsewhere is just unrealistic. This has nothing to do with AA. There are many people alive because of the program. But to open the door to a meeting and expect this shining light that leads you to a new world is just not realistic. People are people, whether they are in AA or not. Nothing wrong with that. I just think people should use their common sense in the meetings just as they would anywhere else. John

skg

And you are certainly entitled to your experience. I make it a point not to expect too much so I am seldom disappointed. Everyone falls short before God. Some are just more aware of it than others.
Understanding that seems to facilitate the whole trust but verify thing.
Anyway, thank you for the discussion today as it has solidified some faith-stuff for me and helped me to understand some new perspectives. Thanks.
Now. Bedtime for bingo...good night. Stay Sobah!

2muchpain

Just because someone has gone through the steps doesn't mean they are someone you can trust. Some of the people that have taken advantage of me worked the steps. But again, some of the nicest people I've met worked the steps, I think the steps helps good people to get back to where they were, but does little for people who were scum bags to begin with. I know this sounds harsh, but after many years in AA, it is hard to ignore. Again, this has nothing to do with AA. Any organization has its rogues. Now, you might say to stick with the people that have worked through the 12 steps. The fact is some of those people will still take you for everything you got, yet be able go recite passages in the BB.
It's just unfair for anybody new to AA to expect anything different. I go to two or three meetings a week, so I obviously see the advantages of AA. But to expect the people at these meetings to be any different than people you meet outside these meetings because of the 12 steps is ridiculuse Nothing against the 12 steps. But it won't change personalities. John

WMJ1012

I told my latter steps sponsor "I can't trust anyone! They're all taking advantage of me." He said "Maybe you're the woman you can't trust."

When I trust God I can trust myself, and I find I can be more open.

When I don't take things personally I'm not afraid.

skg

I guess we can do this until you see things my way (thanks, DayTrader), or we can agree that we are not doormats and I will bow only to God. That carries with it certain obligations and constraints to love, but it doesn't make me a pushover. In fact, Courage requires Faith (learned that through The Steps), and the Power to do the next right thing.

Would you give a child everything they asked for? Discipline, i.e., doing the next RIGHT thing, doesn't always mean passivity--these spiritual principles aren't contrary to God's direction--they are His fruits of The Spirit. It simply means I get out of the results business. I don't loan money, books, or even my time to other alcoholics in the rooms of AA, I give it to them. I don't expect to be repaid nor do I expect them to use stuff properly once it's theirs. But I do the right thing. It's not mine to judge at that point. I learned that in AA, too....

Do I trust everyone? Nope. Do I I trust God? Yup. Living the other way 'round put me in the rooms... Like others have said, when it's not about me, I can simply BE. Be a child of God and let others have their own experience. The less I am dependent upon them, the better, so that I am not disappointed when they let me down. And they will.

Thanks again for the discussion. Sort of became a referendum on trusting the people in AA, but apparently that's alright.

Peaceness.

2muchpain

This might make sense in a perfect world. Unfortunately in the real world it doesn't work. It's hard to not take personally when you get ripped off. Sure, it's great to help others and I believe it should be done without expecting anything in return. But its another thing when these same people or people they know keep coming back for more. The fact is that some people will drain you dry if you let them. God has nothing to do with that. Just need to use common sense and use the word "no" and protect your sobriety at all costs. To me, that's what a god wants. John

Fly N Buy

This was in my morning reading today -

The greatest competitor of true devotion to Jesus is the service we do for Him. It is easier to serve than to pour out our lives completely for Him. The goal of the call of God is His satisfaction, not simply that we should do something for Him. We are not sent to do battle for God, but to be used by God in His battles. Are we more devoted to service than we are to Jesus Christ Himself?

Oswald Chambers

LiveInPeace

"Trust and rely on God" is something I often hear at my meetings. As part of my program's 4th step inventory, we do something called a "Fear Inventory".

As part of it, we write out the Fear Affirmations, also called the God Affirmations.

You can read more about the fear inventory by reading from the last paragraph page 67, to the end of the second to last paragraph, page 68.

Learning to "trust and rely on God" is key for us in recovery.

"We trust infinite God, rather than our finite selves." -We follow God's will for us, rather than continuing to run on self will.

Hope that helps.

WMJ1012

Hey LiveInPeace

What are "fear affirmations" or "God affirmations"? Is that the last question in the fear turnarounds or is it something different?

Ken33xx

In God I trust.

Others pay cash.

Ken33xx

Over time

I don't instinctively trust or distrust people

I simply don't know them and until I do I'm careful especially in business dealings

CousinA

Experience. Plain and simple. Same as I have faith that the "program" works through experience, I develop trust in people through my experience with them.

-allan

LiveInPeace

Hi WMJ,

I private messaged you what they are. If anyone else is interested, you can PM me as well.

LiveInPeace

Also my wording may not have been 100% correct. I get confused between what from those pages is the "Fear Prayer", and if the affirmations are called "Fear Affirmations" or "God Affirmations". I'm thinking now maybe it's the "Fear Prayer" followed by the "God Affirmations" as part of the "Fear Inventory" but don't quote me on that.

All I know is, when I trust and rely on God and ask Him to remove my fear of not trusting others, I ask Him to direct my attention to His will.

WMJ1012

Thanks Live
That all sounds good to me.

Turtle82

Trust? Only place I put that is in God. Friendship? If I like what I hear and see them walk it.