That statistic stuff...
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Originally Posted by Boleo 
1. Tastes like honey. Has a 3% success rate.
2. Tastes like cough syrup. Has a 8% success rate.
3. Tastes like bottled tyranny. Has a 90% success rate.
Guess which one I would be willing to swallow?
I don't believe any of them!
And your math needs some work.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
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Originally Posted by Joe Nerv
There's those dang statistics again!
I don't believe any of them!
I don't believe any of them!
He not only proved that they had a 90% success rate, he even showed his mountain of documentation to journalists and scientific researchers so that they could calculate their own percentage rate.
90% was real and irrefutable.
Now, was it ethical to give that kind of personal information to outsiders? That's another story. But as the Brit's like to say:
"The proof of the pudding is in the eating."
voices ca**y
Join Date: Mar 2013
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An example of this shift in locus of control is found in Pyle's (1984) study with a male Veterans Administration inpatient population. His hypotheses were, for the most part, in keeping with those of previous researchers. For example, he predicted that successful treatment would result in an increase in internality, and the pretreatment internality would be positively correlated with successful treatment. However, his results did not support his hypotheses. His data illustrated a significant shift across treatment from an internal to an external LOC. Also, success at follow-up was significantly correlated to externality at post treatment. This development of an external LOC by surrendering the will to a Higher Power
That was from the last link. I understood the article to say that alcoholics tend to have an internal locus of control and it shifts to external with treatment.
It was the exact opposite for me. I can't be the only one. I felt like bad things happened to me (mostly paranoia but a few assholes at work). I felt completely helpless to change the direction. In fact I believed I might have some sort of guardian angle because I felt like I was being lead out. As I recover my locus of control has shifted to external and I now believe that power came from within. Until today I never heard the term locus of control. Did I read that wrong?
That was from the last link. I understood the article to say that alcoholics tend to have an internal locus of control and it shifts to external with treatment.
It was the exact opposite for me. I can't be the only one. I felt like bad things happened to me (mostly paranoia but a few assholes at work). I felt completely helpless to change the direction. In fact I believed I might have some sort of guardian angle because I felt like I was being lead out. As I recover my locus of control has shifted to external and I now believe that power came from within. Until today I never heard the term locus of control. Did I read that wrong?
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Originally Posted by silentrun
It was the exact opposite for me. I can't be the only one. I felt like bad things happened to me (mostly paranoia but a few assholes at work). I felt completely helpless to change the direction. In fact I believed I might have some sort of guardian angle because I felt like I was being lead out. As I recover my locus of control has shifted to external and I now believe that power came from within. Until today I never heard the term locus of control. Did I read that wrong?
As I think I said earlier, I believe in synchronicity. Which would seem to fit in with an external LOC, yet I fall right in line with everything in the list in my previous point. Perhaps there is a place for people with both?
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
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Originally Posted by Joe Nerv
Perhaps there is a place for people with both?
However, when the Buddha said: "Dwell making yourself your refuge and not anyone else as your refuge". He was not using the word self as we use it in english. He was using the word Dhamma: which is a universal, unbound, all-encompassing version of self. Closer to Carl Jung's term "Collective Unconscious".
Now is that internal LOC, external LOC or omnipresent?
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Originally Posted by Boleo
Clarence Snyder was so crass and arrogant, that he kept meticulous, highly empirical, well documented, cold-hard-evidence concerning each and every AA member in his realm of despotic control.
He not only proved that they had a 90% success rate, he even showed his mountain of documentation to journalists and scientific researchers so that they could calculate their own percentage rate.
90% was real and irrefutable.
He not only proved that they had a 90% success rate, he even showed his mountain of documentation to journalists and scientific researchers so that they could calculate their own percentage rate.
90% was real and irrefutable.
The Cleveland area groups essentially “cherry picked” prospects who had already previously achieved recovery and demonstrated the ability to stay sober. They effectively went through a probationary or introductory period before being allowed to attend Cleveland meetings.
Under the circumstances, portraying the Cleveland practices as achieving a “93%” success rate is tantamount to claiming a 93% success rate among prescreened prospects that were already demonstrated to be 100% successful for up to 3 months before they attended their first meeting. Without an indication of the number of prescreened “unsuccessful” alcoholics who were not allowed to attend Cleveland meetings, the reputed “93%” success rate is so dominantly biased to a demonstrated favorable subset of the prospect population as to be a dubious claim at best.
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf
pg 25-27
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Originally Posted by Ken33xx
[I]The Cleveland area groups essentially “cherry picked” prospects who had already previously achieved recovery and demonstrated the ability to stay sober. They effectively went through a probationary or introductory period before being allowed to attend Cleveland meetings.
People can be very trusting of the numbers they see, and I think that's really dangerous. There's truth in the joke that 70% of all statistics are made up. Maybe not completely, but people will prove with that percentage sign anything they're out to prove. When there's millions, even billions of dollars behind it, the length they're willing to stretch things grows exponentially. People seem to like to believe that others are honest, and operating with good intent, and while that's many times true I'm finding more and more that when big business is involved, well... that goes right out the window. Happening right now here on SR with that newsletter thing. Take a peek at the newsletter thread if you haven't already. Pretty clear that the newsletter mailing is not only dangerous, but unwanted, and guess what. The people who own this site (not the mods and administrators mind you), aren't even pausing to reconsider. It's big business, and our concerns or well being aren't a consideration. Only money is, and that newsletter is going to plow through like a freight train. It's crystal clear, to me at least, that money is far more important than anything else in this instance.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
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Originally Posted by Ken33xx
[I]The Cleveland area groups essentially “cherry picked” prospects who had already previously achieved recovery and demonstrated the ability to stay sober. They effectively went through a probationary or introductory period before being allowed to attend Cleveland meetings.
My description of him being crass, arrogant and despotic was meant to be a "Caveat emptor" for those looking to him as any sort of role-model. I can easily tell that his vetting process was far stricter than anything else going on in AA at the time. Plus, I tried to point out that the Traditions were put into place to circumvent anything like it happening in the future.
However, even if we see where 93% was a biased figure, the point is that it is possible to break through the 8% barrier indicated by the majority of studies done so far. Given enough guidelines, regulations and boundaries implemented into a recovery program, higher numbers are achievable. Although, I must admit some freedoms, liberties and anonymity must be thrown out with the bath water.
The rehab that I went to claimed a overall 20% success rate. After I got there, I found out that those figures were for "Graduates" of the program. It was a 13 month program and I could easily see that well over half of those attending failed to make it that far. No attempt was made to find out if those who left early stayed sober long enough to qualify as success stories. I myself left after 5 months and would not show up in any of their figures since they made no attempt to follow up on my progress.
My final take on this whole subject: "Caveat emptor".
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Dec 2014
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Wow! I never heard about all that Locus stuff but read the links to it on this thread. All I have time for right now is... there is something way, way, wrong with all that... on so many levels my head is spinning right now. This is the best policy until I have it sorted. 
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I'm curious about your thoughts on the LOC stuff. Please write more when your thoughts are sorted out . That's all new to me too, and is sounding much like a complicated version of whether we believe power (or God) lies within us, or outside of us. Which never really mattered to me. I'm looking to learn more about this though as I find it interesting.
I also downloaded a bunch of free books on Buddhism last night. Interested in exploring that a bit more too.
. That's all new to me too, and is sounding much like a complicated version of whether we believe power (or God) lies within us, or outside of us. Which never really mattered to me. I'm looking to learn more about this though as I find it interesting.I also downloaded a bunch of free books on Buddhism last night. Interested in exploring that a bit more too.
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.
A Locus Of Control Quiz is linked below. No surprise in my results. I'm an 'Internal'.
I thought we'd covered this back in College in the Stone Age. The age of this Quiz dovetails with that recollection.
Locus Of Control Quiz
An interesting Article...
Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don't Know How It Works ~ Wired Magazine
Via freshstart57 from a Post last year. Perhaps this Survey is where some Stats originate...
NIH Alcohol Survey ~ 2006
As the Masthead of a small Colorado Mountain Town Newspaper states:
'You hear what you want to hear. You see what you want to see.'
.
A Locus Of Control Quiz is linked below. No surprise in my results. I'm an 'Internal'.
I thought we'd covered this back in College in the Stone Age. The age of this Quiz dovetails with that recollection.
Locus Of Control Quiz
An interesting Article...
Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don't Know How It Works ~ Wired Magazine
Via freshstart57 from a Post last year. Perhaps this Survey is where some Stats originate...
NIH Alcohol Survey ~ 2006
As the Masthead of a small Colorado Mountain Town Newspaper states:
'You hear what you want to hear. You see what you want to see.'
.
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Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Interesting conversations being had
I don't think the Locus of Control conversation is controversial...given so many of us come from places of low self esteem (though inflated ego), perceived victimhood, helplessness and so on.
This from Wikipedia:
Locus of control - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sound familiar?
Reminds me of a concept that frightened me until I got some recovery. Stephen Covey in the "7 habits" talks about dependency and maturity.
The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sorry for poor editing in that last post
Up until I read this book, I always strove for Independence as the be all and end all. The idea that this was only a beginning...scared me
P
I don't think the Locus of Control conversation is controversial...given so many of us come from places of low self esteem (though inflated ego), perceived victimhood, helplessness and so on.
This from Wikipedia:
Locus of control - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Regarding locus of control, there is another type of control that entails a mix among the internal and external types. People that have the combination of the two types of locus of control are often referred to as Bi-locals. People that have Bi-local characteristics are known to handle stress and cope with their diseases more efficiently by having the mixture of internal and external locus of control.[9]*
People that have this mix of loci of control can take personal responsibility for their actions and the consequences thereof while remaining capable of relying upon and having faith in outside resources; these characteristics correspond to the internal and external loci of control, respectively. An example of this mixed system would be an alcoholic who will accept the fact that he brought the disease upon himself while remaining open to treatment and/or acknowledging that there are people, mainly doctors and therapists, that are trying to cure his/her addiction, and on whom he should rely.
People that have this mix of loci of control can take personal responsibility for their actions and the consequences thereof while remaining capable of relying upon and having faith in outside resources; these characteristics correspond to the internal and external loci of control, respectively. An example of this mixed system would be an alcoholic who will accept the fact that he brought the disease upon himself while remaining open to treatment and/or acknowledging that there are people, mainly doctors and therapists, that are trying to cure his/her addiction, and on whom he should rely.
Reminds me of a concept that frightened me until I got some recovery. Stephen Covey in the "7 habits" talks about dependency and maturity.
The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The First Three Habits surround moving from dependence to*independence*(i.e., self-mastery):
1 - Be*Proactiveroles and relationships in life.2 - Begin with the End in Mindenvision what you want in the future so that you know concretely what to make a reality.3 - Put First Things FirstA*manager*must manage his own person. Personally. And managers should implement activities that aim to reach the second habit. Covey says that rule two is the mental creation; rule three is the physical creation.
InterdependenceEdit
The next three habits talk about Interdependence*(e.g. working with others):
4 - Think Win-Win
Genuine feelings for mutually beneficial solutions or agreements in your relationships. Value and respect people by understanding a "win" for all is ultimately a better long-term resolution than if only one person in the situation had gotten his way.
5 - Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood
Use*empathic*listening to be genuinely influenced by a person, which compels them to reciprocate the listening and take an open mind to being influenced by you. This creates an atmosphere of caring, and positive problem solving.6 -*SynergizeCombine the strengths of people through positive*teamwork, so as to achieve goals that no one could have done alone.Continuous ImprovementsEdit
The final habit is that of*continuous improvement*in both the personal and interpersonal spheres of influence.
7 - Sharpen the SawBalance and renew your resources, energy, and health to create a*sustainable, long-term, effective lifestyle. It primarily emphasizes exercise for physical renewal, prayer (meditation,*yoga, etc.) and good reading for mental renewal. It also mentions service to society for spiritual renewal.
1 - Be*Proactiveroles and relationships in life.2 - Begin with the End in Mindenvision what you want in the future so that you know concretely what to make a reality.3 - Put First Things FirstA*manager*must manage his own person. Personally. And managers should implement activities that aim to reach the second habit. Covey says that rule two is the mental creation; rule three is the physical creation.
InterdependenceEdit
The next three habits talk about Interdependence*(e.g. working with others):
4 - Think Win-Win
Genuine feelings for mutually beneficial solutions or agreements in your relationships. Value and respect people by understanding a "win" for all is ultimately a better long-term resolution than if only one person in the situation had gotten his way.
5 - Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood
Use*empathic*listening to be genuinely influenced by a person, which compels them to reciprocate the listening and take an open mind to being influenced by you. This creates an atmosphere of caring, and positive problem solving.6 -*SynergizeCombine the strengths of people through positive*teamwork, so as to achieve goals that no one could have done alone.Continuous ImprovementsEdit
The final habit is that of*continuous improvement*in both the personal and interpersonal spheres of influence.
7 - Sharpen the SawBalance and renew your resources, energy, and health to create a*sustainable, long-term, effective lifestyle. It primarily emphasizes exercise for physical renewal, prayer (meditation,*yoga, etc.) and good reading for mental renewal. It also mentions service to society for spiritual renewal.
Up until I read this book, I always strove for Independence as the be all and end all. The idea that this was only a beginning...scared me
P
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: northern AZ
Posts: 796
I know without any doubt whatsoever that I'm spirit inhabiting body. I am equally convinced reincarnation happens. Why? Why would any spirit return to another body? Further education is one possibility. Who decides that's needed? I, spirit, do. I'm the one who signs up for another class. BUT, what yardstick am I using to determine if I need to? God's.. my Creator's. So... Internal or External Locus by their definitions? I TRUST that God will assist me in any way conducive to the education or intention I decided to returned for. Try to fit that in... as I am... still sorting. Perhaps I'm a mix? (Thanks Paulokes... will think on it.) It just seems to me that a whole lot of "forcing" has to be done to fit into either one and I'm left wondering... why? Perhaps, if one does not have a spiritual perspective to begin with then Internal or External Locus definitions make sense. They really don't to me. I am 100% responsible in spirit... ultimately in body. I also depend 100% on God for direction. Edit: and I wonder if that is not, in fact, the education.
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I'm getting the sense that most of us are bi-locals. I wonder also if those who are one or the other, are also those who tend to more of the, "My way is better" type of people. The RR people who trash AA till the ends of the earth, and the AA nazis. Not saying it is, but it's something I'm going to chew on for a bit .
.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Turtle82
Perhaps I'm a mix? (Thanks Paulokes... will think on it.) It just seems to me that a whole lot of "forcing" has to be done to fit into either one and I'm left wondering... why? Perhaps, if one does not have a spiritual perspective to begin with then Internal or External Locus definitions make sense. They really don't to me. I am 100% responsible in spirit... ultimately in body. I also depend 100% on God for direction. Edit: and I wonder if that is not, in fact, the education.
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