Sobriety
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,293
Originally Posted by NoelleR 
This may be true when using AA/12-step recovery methods for recovery from alcoholism. BUT it's not true concerning life in general, and can be dangerous, as mentioned by 2muchpain previously.............:
"...I think it is risky for anybody taking meds to decide to stop without medical supervision. I've seen negative things happen to people who were told by someone in AA, etc., to stop taking their meds and rely totally on a HP...The reality is that some people need their meds to have a positive and productive life. Also, AA is not a substitute for good therapy. Some people need all three to stay sober and do well in other parts of their life. No recovery program can provide everything a person needs..."
As an example, when I was early in recovery (about 6 months, and I remember it like it was yesterday), I met a woman in one of my regular meetings. She was a really sweet girl, and she was on psychiatric medication that some members were trying to get her off....with the line, "Everything you need is AA/the 12-steps and the BB." I tried to tell her to stick with her doctor, but she went with the (AAers') flow.* Unfortunately, she REALLY needed those meds, and within a few weeks off them, she put a .45 in her mouth and blew her brains out.
Even the BB mentions something along these lines...............:
"...this does not mean that we disregard human health measures. God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitated to take your health problems to such persons. Most of them give freely of themselves, that their fellows may enjoy sound minds and bodies. Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good doctor or psychiatrist..." (ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, page 133)
(o:
NoelleR
*I'm a firm believer in not necessarily trusting 'the flow.' There's as old saying I like.............: Just 'cause the majority say something doesn't make it so; it could just be that all the fools are the wrong side.
"...I think it is risky for anybody taking meds to decide to stop without medical supervision. I've seen negative things happen to people who were told by someone in AA, etc., to stop taking their meds and rely totally on a HP...The reality is that some people need their meds to have a positive and productive life. Also, AA is not a substitute for good therapy. Some people need all three to stay sober and do well in other parts of their life. No recovery program can provide everything a person needs..."
As an example, when I was early in recovery (about 6 months, and I remember it like it was yesterday), I met a woman in one of my regular meetings. She was a really sweet girl, and she was on psychiatric medication that some members were trying to get her off....with the line, "Everything you need is AA/the 12-steps and the BB." I tried to tell her to stick with her doctor, but she went with the (AAers') flow.* Unfortunately, she REALLY needed those meds, and within a few weeks off them, she put a .45 in her mouth and blew her brains out.
Even the BB mentions something along these lines...............:
"...this does not mean that we disregard human health measures. God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitated to take your health problems to such persons. Most of them give freely of themselves, that their fellows may enjoy sound minds and bodies. Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good doctor or psychiatrist..." (ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, page 133)
(o:
NoelleR
*I'm a firm believer in not necessarily trusting 'the flow.' There's as old saying I like.............: Just 'cause the majority say something doesn't make it so; it could just be that all the fools are the wrong side.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 765
Yes I am aware of that paragraph
Also AA's idea of a spiritual experience as a solution came from Dr Jung, the father of psychology.
In the beginning the psychiatric community was the front lines for me. I always respect them as such. They gave me a place to go before I admitted I was an alcoholic.
Even though they plugged us all full of meds to keep us quiet at night
But once my self-reliance failed me in sobriety and I started getting well through the BB, I could very strongly feel therapy pulling me away from the spiritual. It was an accurate feeling. The psych & ther I was workin with did some pretty messed up things to try to stop me from the spiritual. Boy were they disturbed
They feel their positions are threatened.
Now that's my story and I'm stickin to it.
Also AA's idea of a spiritual experience as a solution came from Dr Jung, the father of psychology.
In the beginning the psychiatric community was the front lines for me. I always respect them as such. They gave me a place to go before I admitted I was an alcoholic.
Even though they plugged us all full of meds to keep us quiet at night
But once my self-reliance failed me in sobriety and I started getting well through the BB, I could very strongly feel therapy pulling me away from the spiritual. It was an accurate feeling. The psych & ther I was workin with did some pretty messed up things to try to stop me from the spiritual. Boy were they disturbed
They feel their positions are threatened.
Now that's my story and I'm stickin to it.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: northern AZ
Posts: 796
There's a difference between situational depression and clinical depression. Odds are, situational can be bandaided with meetings, BB,etc. However, clinical is a physical brain chemistry problem. I, personally, wouldn't presume to know which another person was dealing with to the extent of advising them to get off medically prescribed treatment. I would also never risk anything smacking of condemnation for taking meds. It could be that final straw of judgement that pushes them over the edge. IE: God is way smarter than I am... so I don't try to fill His shoes. I would, however, advise either to have a sponsor (friend) if for no other reason than to stay in contact with another human being rather than isolating at a critical time.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
"...AA's idea of a spiritual experience as a solution came from Dr Jung, the father of psychology..."
I believe Jung only mentioned that some folks were having some success in recovery with a spiritual experience, while what he tried to do to help some, failed miserably.
AA's spiritual experience mainly comes from William James (The Father of American Psychology).
...and Jung being the father of psychology....? He may have had some contributions to modern psychology, along with Freud (The Father of Psychoanalysis), Skinner, Pavlov, but as to the father of psychology..?..I'd go with Wilhelm Wundt and/or William James.
There are a number of other 'fathers of'.....: Hugo Münsterberg: The Father of Applied Psychology; John Bowlby: The Father of Attachment Theory; Kurt Lewin: The Father of Social Psychology; Jean Piaget: The Father of Developmental Psychology; Edward Thorndike: The Father of Modern Educational Psychology; Ulric Neisser: The Father of Modern Cognitive Psychology; Lightner Witmer: The Father of Modern Clinical Psychology; and
Gordon Allport: The Father of Personality Psychology, but no Carl Jung; least not in my studies.
(o:
NoelleR
I believe Jung only mentioned that some folks were having some success in recovery with a spiritual experience, while what he tried to do to help some, failed miserably.
AA's spiritual experience mainly comes from William James (The Father of American Psychology).
...and Jung being the father of psychology....? He may have had some contributions to modern psychology, along with Freud (The Father of Psychoanalysis), Skinner, Pavlov, but as to the father of psychology..?..I'd go with Wilhelm Wundt and/or William James.
There are a number of other 'fathers of'.....: Hugo Münsterberg: The Father of Applied Psychology; John Bowlby: The Father of Attachment Theory; Kurt Lewin: The Father of Social Psychology; Jean Piaget: The Father of Developmental Psychology; Edward Thorndike: The Father of Modern Educational Psychology; Ulric Neisser: The Father of Modern Cognitive Psychology; Lightner Witmer: The Father of Modern Clinical Psychology; and
Gordon Allport: The Father of Personality Psychology, but no Carl Jung; least not in my studies.
(o:
NoelleR
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,293
Originally Posted by WMJ1012
Depression = all forms of self
Suicide = the ego needs to die, not our physical selves
Emotional pain = there is no pain. It's all ego.
Suicide = the ego needs to die, not our physical selves
Emotional pain = there is no pain. It's all ego.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by 2muchpain
I appreciate your opinion and I really wish these issues were this simple to deal with, but I think you are leaving out a lot of other reasons for these problems to occur. I'm assuming you are not a fan of either science or the medical fields. But if your view has worked for you, great. John
(Imo) the problem isn't so much that some members/groups feel the 12-steps, spirituality ect are the end all to dealing with sobriety and/or life in general. That's all good.
But that they sometimes become offended by those who don't.
And I believe this is often because of their own self-doubts regarding recovery.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Complicated subject this. Psychiatrists and psychologists can't agree on it so what hope have we got?
Here's the thing. It's all about how honest the alcoholic is with their doctor. I have seen several scenarios like these.
1 over the years I have met a small number of mentally ill alcoholics, mainly manic depressive who could not survive without lithium. They took there medication as prescribed, worked the program and all recovered. Some have since died, but they died sober and well.
This group would avoid medication if they could.
2 those like WJM described who, in the course of their alcoholism and their tendency to withold the truth from their doctors, ended up diagnosed with every imaginable mental illness, and are given a cocktail of medications as a result. When they get sober and get honest, they are still left with all these drugs to take, but if they have the right doctor they are able to disentangle themselves from medication over time and make a full recovery.
This group also would avoid medication if they could.
3 then there is the third group who have an aversion to any emotional pain. When I suggest they have a chat to their doctor about whether and how they could come off medication, they always come back looking delighted with the idea that the doctr has told them they will have to take meds for the rest of their life. It is interesting that neither 1 or 2 above share this enthusiasm. Their justification is that the medication is "prescribed". It's the basis of the prescription that is in question. The doctor bases it on what the patient tells him. And alcoholics lie and deceive.
This group could avoid medication if they would.
Obtaining prescription medication by deception has never aided anyone's recovery. The best that can be hoped for is a sort of palliative care situation where we minimise the suffering while waiting for the end. Surprisingly, many alcoholics will settle for that.
Getting a prescription for anti depressants is child's play these days. Doctors hand them out like candy, believing that they are non addictive and therefor can do not harm. A few years back my 14 year old daughter went through a difficult patch, as teenage girls do, went to the doctor and cAme home with anti depressants. Went to another doctor, had a couple of therapy sessions, and the problem was resolved without meds.
As for being non addictive, alcohol is non addictive, for most people.
Here's the thing. It's all about how honest the alcoholic is with their doctor. I have seen several scenarios like these.
1 over the years I have met a small number of mentally ill alcoholics, mainly manic depressive who could not survive without lithium. They took there medication as prescribed, worked the program and all recovered. Some have since died, but they died sober and well.
This group would avoid medication if they could.
2 those like WJM described who, in the course of their alcoholism and their tendency to withold the truth from their doctors, ended up diagnosed with every imaginable mental illness, and are given a cocktail of medications as a result. When they get sober and get honest, they are still left with all these drugs to take, but if they have the right doctor they are able to disentangle themselves from medication over time and make a full recovery.
This group also would avoid medication if they could.
3 then there is the third group who have an aversion to any emotional pain. When I suggest they have a chat to their doctor about whether and how they could come off medication, they always come back looking delighted with the idea that the doctr has told them they will have to take meds for the rest of their life. It is interesting that neither 1 or 2 above share this enthusiasm. Their justification is that the medication is "prescribed". It's the basis of the prescription that is in question. The doctor bases it on what the patient tells him. And alcoholics lie and deceive.
This group could avoid medication if they would.
Obtaining prescription medication by deception has never aided anyone's recovery. The best that can be hoped for is a sort of palliative care situation where we minimise the suffering while waiting for the end. Surprisingly, many alcoholics will settle for that.
Getting a prescription for anti depressants is child's play these days. Doctors hand them out like candy, believing that they are non addictive and therefor can do not harm. A few years back my 14 year old daughter went through a difficult patch, as teenage girls do, went to the doctor and cAme home with anti depressants. Went to another doctor, had a couple of therapy sessions, and the problem was resolved without meds.
As for being non addictive, alcohol is non addictive, for most people.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
i only have to look at thrid world countries and the suffering the people there have to go through to realize that over here we seem to run to the drs looking for a pil that will help us cope will feeling bad in a day, just how do people who have so little cope ? yet they do because they have to, they have to work past themselves just to survive
i work hard on my recovery and that means when i am having a bad day that i have to put twice as much effort into things than i would if things were going good for me
sobriety is a cake walk so long as everything is going my way
when things dont go my way i could run off to a dr saying i am feeling depressed, low, sad, angry etc i end up not wanting to do anything other than to stay indoors cut people off, and wallow in feeling so low
hence i do not go to dr for anything like that as i know the answer for me is to get out there and do something
the results i get from doing it are back to feeling ok again so it does work but i have to work it and that is the hard part as it take huge effort to work it when you really dont feel like working it
its the self awareness aa has given me and the many years of working on me with my sponsor etc
i know i have come a long way as i look back at the state i was in almost 11 years ago now
i dont ever want to go back there again, i like how i am today, i will never be perfect i still have defects and isms that grow weaker within me as the years go by
but i will never take a pill to help me cope with feeling low or down that just my own personal take on it based on how well i know me and how my mind operates
i work hard on my recovery and that means when i am having a bad day that i have to put twice as much effort into things than i would if things were going good for me
sobriety is a cake walk so long as everything is going my way
when things dont go my way i could run off to a dr saying i am feeling depressed, low, sad, angry etc i end up not wanting to do anything other than to stay indoors cut people off, and wallow in feeling so low
hence i do not go to dr for anything like that as i know the answer for me is to get out there and do something
the results i get from doing it are back to feeling ok again so it does work but i have to work it and that is the hard part as it take huge effort to work it when you really dont feel like working it
its the self awareness aa has given me and the many years of working on me with my sponsor etc
i know i have come a long way as i look back at the state i was in almost 11 years ago now
i dont ever want to go back there again, i like how i am today, i will never be perfect i still have defects and isms that grow weaker within me as the years go by
but i will never take a pill to help me cope with feeling low or down that just my own personal take on it based on how well i know me and how my mind operates
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: northern AZ
Posts: 796
An awful lot of what I'm reading here is only talking about situational depression or plain old "stinkin thinkin" that brings on a black cloud. Its not the same as just waking up one day when everything in your life is just-fine-to-happy and you're a reasonably positive person who suddenly doesn't recognize their very self. You can't access nor comprehend one positive thought... all your thoughts are circular coming back to dismal dead ends. The only solution you can find to escaping this stranger whose brain you've somehow acquired in your sleep is to sleep again. That's a physical illness no different than hypothyroidism. There are medications that will treat both and correct the hormone/chemical imbalance. So far, I haven't seen anything spiritual cure a physical malfunction and I think its dangerous to think it can. People with varying ideologies, religious and otherwise, have thought so tragically either not seeking medical treatment themselves or not taking their children for treatment of various illnesses. And when that happens "believers" say they weren't spiritual enough to have been healed and survive.
I know about this because it happened to me not once but twice. I don't like even remembering it because it instills fear that it will happen again because its, apparently, genetic and that's not conducive to my serenity. But I've shared it because I think it needs to be said on this thread. I'll also add that I've seen many people who had a mild case of this and medicated it with alcohol to escape because they couldn't just pull the covers over their head and go to sleep to escape. They usually don't even know until they've been alcohol-free for a while. As I said in another post, I would never presume to know if a person has situational or clinical depression and would never tell anyone to stop taking prescribed meds but one clue to which type a person is dealing with is if situations cause changes..... situational depression can lift. IE: They go from despair or a negative funk to elation with a new love interest or maybe even a new hobby that stirs their passion. Clinically depressed people don't have passion... period. They're emotionless... not sad... flat.... lifeless. Its passion that brings life and clinically depressed people don't have that. I was like the walking dead. (sorry no offense intended... I'm describing how I was.) Tell them the world is going to end tomorrow and the response will be... so? Tell them world peace has just been attained and the response will be.... so? That's not sad... that's nothingness... not the Nothing and Everything of Nirvana... just nothingness that people have no other description for except sad.
I depend on God daily for my sobriety. I've seen His miracles in my life and those of others. I'm a mere mortal incapable of understanding His ways. But, I've witnessed His miracles through doctors effecting and affecting cures. So, I don't narrow my world to only seeing how He works inside the walls of AA. He's there in offices and operating rooms. He's there when doctors and patients come together. And, trust me, I'm extremely grateful that He saw to it the meds I needed were invented before I needed them and that I only needed to take them for months instead of years to cure my condition. I think I can honestly say, having completed the 12 Steps some time ago and continuing to live them, without those meds I wouldn't be alive. That was, for whatever reason, the path I had to walk and all that matters is that I'm grateful today.
Sorry... didn't mean to talk so much. I guess this is something I'm just passionate about... hallelujah for that!
I know about this because it happened to me not once but twice. I don't like even remembering it because it instills fear that it will happen again because its, apparently, genetic and that's not conducive to my serenity. But I've shared it because I think it needs to be said on this thread. I'll also add that I've seen many people who had a mild case of this and medicated it with alcohol to escape because they couldn't just pull the covers over their head and go to sleep to escape. They usually don't even know until they've been alcohol-free for a while. As I said in another post, I would never presume to know if a person has situational or clinical depression and would never tell anyone to stop taking prescribed meds but one clue to which type a person is dealing with is if situations cause changes..... situational depression can lift. IE: They go from despair or a negative funk to elation with a new love interest or maybe even a new hobby that stirs their passion. Clinically depressed people don't have passion... period. They're emotionless... not sad... flat.... lifeless. Its passion that brings life and clinically depressed people don't have that. I was like the walking dead. (sorry no offense intended... I'm describing how I was.) Tell them the world is going to end tomorrow and the response will be... so? Tell them world peace has just been attained and the response will be.... so? That's not sad... that's nothingness... not the Nothing and Everything of Nirvana... just nothingness that people have no other description for except sad.
I depend on God daily for my sobriety. I've seen His miracles in my life and those of others. I'm a mere mortal incapable of understanding His ways. But, I've witnessed His miracles through doctors effecting and affecting cures. So, I don't narrow my world to only seeing how He works inside the walls of AA. He's there in offices and operating rooms. He's there when doctors and patients come together. And, trust me, I'm extremely grateful that He saw to it the meds I needed were invented before I needed them and that I only needed to take them for months instead of years to cure my condition. I think I can honestly say, having completed the 12 Steps some time ago and continuing to live them, without those meds I wouldn't be alive. That was, for whatever reason, the path I had to walk and all that matters is that I'm grateful today.
Sorry... didn't mean to talk so much. I guess this is something I'm just passionate about... hallelujah for that!
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
To thine own self be true.
I've never suffered from depression (or at least I don't think so...) but I hear others share about it and as far as I'm concerned that's between their physician and them.
As far as medication for myself: I'm guess I could use an anxiety prescription now and then. However, I also know I would abuse it as sure as I am typing this.
So, I guess it's the serenity prayer and a good nights rest for me. (Love my naps too.)
I've never suffered from depression (or at least I don't think so...) but I hear others share about it and as far as I'm concerned that's between their physician and them.
As far as medication for myself: I'm guess I could use an anxiety prescription now and then. However, I also know I would abuse it as sure as I am typing this.
So, I guess it's the serenity prayer and a good nights rest for me. (Love my naps too.)
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
Originally Posted by Turtle82
An awful lot of what I'm reading here is only talking about situational depression or plain old "stinkin thinkin" that brings on a black cloud. Its not the same as just waking up one day when everything in your life is just-fine-to-happy and you're a reasonably positive person who suddenly doesn't recognize their very self. You can't access nor comprehend one positive thought... all your thoughts are circular coming back to dismal dead ends. The only solution you can find to escaping this stranger whose brain you've somehow acquired in your sleep is to sleep again. That's a physical illness no different than hypothyroidism. There are medications that will treat both and correct the hormone/chemical imbalance. So far, I haven't seen anything spiritual cure a physical malfunction and I think its dangerous to think it can. People with varying ideologies, religious and otherwise, have thought so tragically either not seeking medical treatment themselves or not taking their children for treatment of various illnesses. And when that happens "believers" say they weren't spiritual enough to have been healed and survive.
I know about this because it happened to me not once but twice. I don't like even remembering it because it instills fear that it will happen again because its, apparently, genetic and that's not conducive to my serenity. But I've shared it because I think it needs to be said on this thread. I'll also add that I've seen many people who had a mild case of this and medicated it with alcohol to escape because they couldn't just pull the covers over their head and go to sleep to escape. They usually don't even know until they've been alcohol-free for a while. As I said in another post, I would never presume to know if a person has situational or clinical depression and would never tell anyone to stop taking prescribed meds but one clue to which type a person is dealing with is if situations cause changes..... situational depression can lift. IE: They go from despair or a negative funk to elation with a new love interest or maybe even a new hobby that stirs their passion. Clinically depressed people don't have passion... period. They're emotionless... not sad... flat.... lifeless. Its passion that brings life and clinically depressed people don't have that. I was like the walking dead. (sorry no offense intended... I'm describing how I was.) Tell them the world is going to end tomorrow and the response will be... so? Tell them world peace has just been attained and the response will be.... so? That's not sad... that's nothingness... not the Nothing and Everything of Nirvana... just nothingness that people have no other description for except sad.
I depend on God daily for my sobriety. I've seen His miracles in my life and those of others. I'm a mere mortal incapable of understanding His ways. But, I've witnessed His miracles through doctors effecting and affecting cures. So, I don't narrow my world to only seeing how He works inside the walls of AA. He's there in offices and operating rooms. He's there when doctors and patients come together. And, trust me, I'm extremely grateful that He saw to it the meds I needed were invented before I needed them and that I only needed to take them for months instead of years to cure my condition. I think I can honestly say, having completed the 12 Steps some time ago and continuing to live them, without those meds I wouldn't be alive. That was, for whatever reason, the path I had to walk and all that matters is that I'm grateful today.
Sorry... didn't mean to talk so much. I guess this is something I'm just passionate about... hallelujah for that!
I know about this because it happened to me not once but twice. I don't like even remembering it because it instills fear that it will happen again because its, apparently, genetic and that's not conducive to my serenity. But I've shared it because I think it needs to be said on this thread. I'll also add that I've seen many people who had a mild case of this and medicated it with alcohol to escape because they couldn't just pull the covers over their head and go to sleep to escape. They usually don't even know until they've been alcohol-free for a while. As I said in another post, I would never presume to know if a person has situational or clinical depression and would never tell anyone to stop taking prescribed meds but one clue to which type a person is dealing with is if situations cause changes..... situational depression can lift. IE: They go from despair or a negative funk to elation with a new love interest or maybe even a new hobby that stirs their passion. Clinically depressed people don't have passion... period. They're emotionless... not sad... flat.... lifeless. Its passion that brings life and clinically depressed people don't have that. I was like the walking dead. (sorry no offense intended... I'm describing how I was.) Tell them the world is going to end tomorrow and the response will be... so? Tell them world peace has just been attained and the response will be.... so? That's not sad... that's nothingness... not the Nothing and Everything of Nirvana... just nothingness that people have no other description for except sad.
I depend on God daily for my sobriety. I've seen His miracles in my life and those of others. I'm a mere mortal incapable of understanding His ways. But, I've witnessed His miracles through doctors effecting and affecting cures. So, I don't narrow my world to only seeing how He works inside the walls of AA. He's there in offices and operating rooms. He's there when doctors and patients come together. And, trust me, I'm extremely grateful that He saw to it the meds I needed were invented before I needed them and that I only needed to take them for months instead of years to cure my condition. I think I can honestly say, having completed the 12 Steps some time ago and continuing to live them, without those meds I wouldn't be alive. That was, for whatever reason, the path I had to walk and all that matters is that I'm grateful today.
Sorry... didn't mean to talk so much. I guess this is something I'm just passionate about... hallelujah for that!
he was just 16 years old a mere baby and he died in pain and suffered a lot,
can you imagine how a kid feels knowing that every moment could be his last ?
can you imagine how hard it was for him to even have a cold drink of water as it would make him violently sick ?
i had to be there 24 / 7 watching all this unfold before my eyes, its the crueliest thing i have ever had to face in my life time, i loved that lad with all my heart hence it killed me inside when the day came and he finaly died
i had spent the last 6 months just caring for him running around anywhere to find him things he could either eat or drink
in the end all he could do was suck on ice to try to quench a huge thirst, i remember begging the drs to increase my sons morphine as it was cruel to watch him suffer like that
we treat animals who are in pain better than kids who have cancer, the drs couldnt up his morhpine as they might kill him with it and end up on charges so it has to be slow and steady increases and the kids have to be in pain to warrent an increase
anyway the point is i have to live with this for the rest of my life, i didnt need any pills from a dr i had to come out of myself slowly and surely
i am not a super human by the way i am just another alcoholic who has to face real life head on without the need to run to a drink and for me it means any other substances as well
i can convince myself i need them but for me it just would start my long downward journey
i am just so lucky to have had some real hard love given to me in aa as its made me have to face things in life and push on
no one else and nothing else is going to do anything for me in this world, i base my non belief in a god on the suffering that goes on like it did with my son
i can not turn a blind eye to it or pretend it didn't happen i have had to face it we all prayed, everyone i knew prayed as there was nothing else left to do
they say somtimes the answer is no but then i would of wished my son got hit by a bus rather than have to suffer such cruelty
thats what i can not get my head around is the cruel suffering my son had to go through
yet there are some evil people in this world who never do anyone any good at all and they go on to live long lives hurting others along the way
even that sort of thinking is wrong for me
but when the question of god comes up i have my own argument people talk about miracles then i will point them to look at the kids out there who need a miracle today but will not get one
my answer is and the only thing that makes sense to me is your either lucky or unlucky in all things in life
you can live or die from illnesses no one knows why some live and other dont those who live tend to believe a god saved them as they dont really think about those who dont make it just so long as there ok
so like i said for me i dont hold truck with the mental side of things if i am feeling down i can either sit and let it drag me down or get off my back side and do somthing
its just what i have to do each and every day, when the going is good it doesnt take any effort at all its easy, but when the bad days come like a son gets cancer and dies from it
i can either curl up in a ball or push on
it might sound hard but its honestly what i have to do. the worst time for me is at night when i am in bed i have nothing to take my mind off things but even then i have come to just accept how it is its getting better but then its almost 2 years now
for me what aa has given to me is a way of life to deal with all things that happen in my life if i apply it
the problem is me. if i choose to work hard on me or do i chose to do nothing.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Truly sorry about your son. Can't begin to imagine the pain.
Right. You either change what you can or accept what you can't. And if you're not sure ask for help
Originally Posted by desypete
the problem is me. if i choose to work hard on me or do i chose to do nothing.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
Originally Posted by desypete
but i will never take a pill to help me cope with feeling low or down that just my own personal take on it based on how well i know me and how my mind operates
People ask me, so why do you choose to suffer with depression when you don't have to? My answer is partly in what I wrote in my initial post here. More accurately though, I don't ever want to experience what I've seen in many people when they go a course of antidepressants for a year a more. I've seen people, even under a doctor's care attempt to get off them. I've seen them unable to do it, also. And find themselves in a much worse state then when they started treatment. It's why I believe many just accept that this is something they'll have to do for the rest of their lives. Well, I don't have to. And I was a prime candidate for that type of treatment.
In AA and on SR I continually hear people say that the best thing someone can do is discuss their depression with their doctor. That's not a fact. That's the opinion of the people giving that advice. And they go on to say that nobody other than a doctor should/could give medical advice. Giving medical advice best be left to the professionals? While I understand the intent behind that thinking and don't think it's meant maliciously, I disagree with it completely. And I feel that saying that is in fact "giving medical advice". Moreso than someone saying ya might want to think twice before popping that first pill. Doctors, especially psychiatrists are trained to treat things medically. It's what they do. In the US you would be truly hard pressed to find a psychiatrist that will recommend a course of exercise before prescribing welbutrin. Exercise has been proven statistically time and time again to be equally effective, but that's not the path an MD will put you on. Not in my experience, or anyone I've spoken to yet.
To take ones depression/anxiety/panic to a doctor is essentially a decision to medically treat those ailments. If someone goes into it knowing that, then I have no problem hearing when it's suggested. If someone goes walks into a psychiatrists office thinking they're going to get the most informed, best way to treat their problem - then I do feel they're being very misguided.
Again, this is NOT medical advice - and I'm not a doctor. It's my opinion and experience. My experience also tells me as it's been already stated more than once, that if someone IS already on medication, to stop without strict medical supervision can often be deadly. It is in my understanding one of the worst things anyone can possibly do. I would never ever suggest that anyone stops taking prescribed medication. I would only suggest that if going to a doctor to treat these problems, you go in educated and fully informed. And have an understanding of both sides of the story.
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mgm, AL
Posts: 1,000
Point
Originally Posted by markz
I have yet to see a sponsee do the steps and relapse.
I have seen many sponsees go to 5 meetings a day, and relapse.
I have seen sponsees go to a meeting then afterward hit the liquor store.
I have yet to see anyone relapse working the steps!
Importance of meetings? heck no, Importance of working the steps!
I have seen many sponsees go to 5 meetings a day, and relapse.
I have seen sponsees go to a meeting then afterward hit the liquor store.
I have yet to see anyone relapse working the steps!
Importance of meetings? heck no, Importance of working the steps!
Everyone stops drinking eventually. The trick seems to lie in doing it while still alive. If a person wants to drink, it's their business. If they want to stop, AA can help.
“A.A.'s Twelve Steps are a group of principles, spiritual in their nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole.” Foreword to the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
Originally Posted by Joe Nerv
Same here. I always felt I had a choice. I could change my brain chemistry with a pill/chemical to mask what I'm feeling, or I can learn to accept the feeling and find ways that will heal it. My depressions, my anxiety, panic and phobias weren't situational. I know full well the feeling of nothing on the outside being able to change what was on the inside. And I was told by many well meaning therapists and psychiatrists that I suffered from imbalances, and needed to be treated medically. That I was fighting a losing battle. Funny, I don't feel that way today. I'm not depressed. I'm not freaking out with panic and anxiety. Will it ever happen again? I'm pretty sure it will, and it may last for while too - but it doesn't stop me from functioning, as that's one of the main things I've learned from my experience with it all.
People ask me, so why do you choose to suffer with depression when you don't have to? My answer is partly in what I wrote in my initial post here. More accurately though, I don't ever want to experience what I've seen in many people when they go a course of antidepressants for a year a more. I've seen people, even under a doctor's care attempt to get off them. I've seen them unable to do it, also. And find themselves in a much worse state then when they started treatment. It's why I believe many just accept that this is something they'll have to do for the rest of their lives. Well, I don't have to. And I was a prime candidate for that type of treatment.
In AA and on SR I continually hear people say that the best thing someone can do is discuss their depression with their doctor. That's not a fact. That's the opinion of the people giving that advice. And they go on to say that nobody other than a doctor should/could give medical advice. Giving medical advice best be left to the professionals? While I understand the intent behind that thinking and don't think it's meant maliciously, I disagree with it completely. And I feel that saying that is in fact "giving medical advice". Moreso than someone saying ya might want to think twice before popping that first pill. Doctors, especially psychiatrists are trained to treat things medically. It's what they do. In the US you would be truly hard pressed to find a psychiatrist that will recommend a course of exercise before prescribing welbutrin. Exercise has been proven statistically time and time again to be equally effective, but that's not the path an MD will put you on. Not in my experience, or anyone I've spoken to yet.
To take ones depression/anxiety/panic to a doctor is essentially a decision to medically treat those ailments. If someone goes into it knowing that, then I have no problem hearing when it's suggested. If someone goes walks into a psychiatrists office thinking they're going to get the most informed, best way to treat their problem - then I do feel they're being very misguided.
Again, this is NOT medical advice - and I'm not a doctor. It's my opinion and experience. My experience also tells me as it's been already stated more than once, that if someone IS already on medication, to stop without strict medical supervision can often be deadly. It is in my understanding one of the worst things anyone can possibly do. I would never ever suggest that anyone stops taking prescribed medication. I would only suggest that if going to a doctor to treat these problems, you go in educated and fully informed. And have an understanding of both sides of the story.
People ask me, so why do you choose to suffer with depression when you don't have to? My answer is partly in what I wrote in my initial post here. More accurately though, I don't ever want to experience what I've seen in many people when they go a course of antidepressants for a year a more. I've seen people, even under a doctor's care attempt to get off them. I've seen them unable to do it, also. And find themselves in a much worse state then when they started treatment. It's why I believe many just accept that this is something they'll have to do for the rest of their lives. Well, I don't have to. And I was a prime candidate for that type of treatment.
In AA and on SR I continually hear people say that the best thing someone can do is discuss their depression with their doctor. That's not a fact. That's the opinion of the people giving that advice. And they go on to say that nobody other than a doctor should/could give medical advice. Giving medical advice best be left to the professionals? While I understand the intent behind that thinking and don't think it's meant maliciously, I disagree with it completely. And I feel that saying that is in fact "giving medical advice". Moreso than someone saying ya might want to think twice before popping that first pill. Doctors, especially psychiatrists are trained to treat things medically. It's what they do. In the US you would be truly hard pressed to find a psychiatrist that will recommend a course of exercise before prescribing welbutrin. Exercise has been proven statistically time and time again to be equally effective, but that's not the path an MD will put you on. Not in my experience, or anyone I've spoken to yet.
To take ones depression/anxiety/panic to a doctor is essentially a decision to medically treat those ailments. If someone goes into it knowing that, then I have no problem hearing when it's suggested. If someone goes walks into a psychiatrists office thinking they're going to get the most informed, best way to treat their problem - then I do feel they're being very misguided.
Again, this is NOT medical advice - and I'm not a doctor. It's my opinion and experience. My experience also tells me as it's been already stated more than once, that if someone IS already on medication, to stop without strict medical supervision can often be deadly. It is in my understanding one of the worst things anyone can possibly do. I would never ever suggest that anyone stops taking prescribed medication. I would only suggest that if going to a doctor to treat these problems, you go in educated and fully informed. And have an understanding of both sides of the story.
there is one guy i know who i used to take out to a wed noon time meeting he has been around aa for about 40 years but he living in a home now unable to care for himself as he has pills coming out of his ears
he is so drugged up he takes pills to counter the effects of other pills
only a few years ago this same guy was ok without pills in his life
he lost his daughter to alcohol she died from it a good few years ago and he became ill over it and it seemed like a good idea to him and for others that he go and see his doctor
he ended up on pills and even tried to commit suicide while under the influence of them, he ended up losing his wife and he went crashing down even further needing more pills and in the end had to be committed to a nursing home as he just couldn't look after himself.
its because i dont want to end up like him is why i know what taking pills may lead me on to so my choice is to carry on just learning to cope with pain in this world and having to live with it
i went and seen the dr myself and was given a test to do that shown me i was depressed so the dr wanted to give me pills and i told her no i dont believe in it
she accepted my decision and never once tried to tell me it was dangerous for me etc in fact she understood a lot more than i thought she would once i told her about how i live my live being an alcoholic and i dont want anything that is mind altering etc.
but again i stress this as its just for me and how i personaly deal with things, and if somoene is on meds etc i certainly wouldnt ever tell anyone not to come off them as i am no dr
but my own personal belief is the pills will lead me down a dark road and i dont need them as i have a way to cope with pain in my life or dark days
i get to aa be around my own kind and i try to help someone else, more importantly i do it when i dont feel like doing anything and it works wonders
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Originally Posted by Joe Nerv
Exercise has been proven statistically time and time again to be equally effective, but that's not the path an MD will put you on. Not in my experience, or anyone I've spoken to yet.
Will this change your statement?
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Originally Posted by freshstart57
My experience does not agree with yours. My doctor is insistent on exercise, and lots of it, as an essential aspect of my ongoing treatment for depression. Along with welbutrin.
Will this change your statement?
Will this change your statement?
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