FeenixxRising

The "power greater than ourselves" = "God". I've always understood the terms higher power and God to be interchangeable.

Step Three explicitly states "God as we understood him". I'm not sure why you're having a hard time understanding that AA members get to choose their own concept of God. This choice has been part of the program since the beginning of AA. It is IMO, the very essence of the program.

Personally, I can't explain it any better than I already have, so I'm dropping out of the conversation . Perhaps other members can help you to understand. However, I will repeat my earlier suggestion, as it's really very simple: you shouldn't be concerning yourself with how other AA members conceptualize God. That choice belongs to the individual AA member alone.

whalebelow

I get the "God as I understand Him/ Her / It" part.

Whatever anyone's understanding of God is, I have absolutely no problem with.

God as I understand Him, my God, isn't a God with human foibles as found in a lot of the Bible.

That God is someone else's understanding, as the Bible was written by men.

murrill

Star Wars? No. Maybe I should investigate.....

whalebelow

Your kidding?

"Use the force Luke"

If you didn't know, a huge percentage of populations the world over, are stating "Jedi "
As their religion on census forms.

I'm pretty sure that Jedi came top the last Australian census.

Dee74

There were about 65 thousand Jedis last census (2011) - long way from the top, to quote ACDC.

You should check out Pantheism, Whale.

D

whalebelow

Thanks Dee, I will

2muchpain

whalebelow
So AA uses the "power greater than ourselves" to not scare people away from AA and to lure them into the rooms to show them that the real and only "power greater than ourselves" is the one you believe in?
I don't think anybody needs to be tricked into AA. Besides, isn't AA suppose to pride itself on honesty?

whalebelow

The Bb says that talk of God is "leading with the chin"

And so we can make a "start" with a "power greater than ourselves " and if that is simply the power of example or power of the group, then all is well.

If you've read Bills Story, Ebby Thatcher shows up sober to carry the message to Bill.
Bill hasn't known Ebby to be sober, possibly seldom, possibly ever. He doesn't say exactly.

But Bill is super impressed, something is up and he wants to know more and how.

Ebby announced he had "religion " Bill says his mind snapped shut and he thought, no worries, my gin will outlast his preaching.

But the seed was sown.

Some 3 months IIRC, Bill, cries out to a God, he isn't 100% sure is there and that he certainly doesn't understand..... And the rest is history as the saying goes.

My God, is not Bills God, but if the guy who started it all and gave me a way out, a solution to my alcolism, calls his God, God.

Then I figure it's good enough for me to do likewise.

So no, the people in AA didn't lure me in to cram, THEIR God down my throat and I don't do that to others.

What i do, do is tell them I found a solution and I tell them, "I've been there, but it's going to be ok, cause if you want the same solution, I can show you how it works "

If they don't want it, that's Ok, fix it yourself or fix it another way.

But if you want the solution, tough cheese if you don't or won't believe in a God of your own understanding, cause I'm going to talk about God anyway.

My atheism was to an extent that I refused to have anything to do with any organisation or people that involved a God. I wasn't going to be an atheist in AA.

Because the only God I knew at that stage was the God of the Bible... I had someone else's conception, not mine.

And he was a scary dude. Hell fire and purgatory and you had to be 100% perfect with no defects of character, allowed... Period.

Actually I did have my own conception of God, but I'd chosen to remember all the dark stuff. And of course I pointed out famine, disease, paedophile priests etc etc, as perfectly good examples to run the other way.

So, like Bill, my mind snapped shut.

"contempt prior to investigation "

That's all I had, sum total.

matt4x4

No one can be stuck on step 3, you are either on step 2 or 4. If you question it even a little, go back to step 2 where all you need is a willingness to believe in anything other then yourself. Its actually quite a simple program of action! But we like to complicate the $h17 out of it, like making a mountain out of a mole hill. Thats what we alcoholics do.

whalebelow

In my opinion, several hard drinkers or even a few moderate drinkers, who got temporarily out of control, have further complicated matters.

The fellowship is all they need and they make friends and have a lovely time and there lives go really well from then on.

But they haven't got a clue how to fix the real deal, a lot of them just look away, go get a coffee.

yeahgr8

AA is not organised. The steps are not enforced and are just suggestions. Let me ask you this if you had not been desperate and hopeless would you have worked the steps? I know i wouldn't have!, let alone read all the way through the Big Book!

desypete

so your here to tell us all how its done and what the real deal is a take it ?

i am glad your hear to tell us all how its done i really am : )

whalebelow

How to do it is in the Big Book Pete.

There is even a Chapter called "How it Works "

I used to think I knew how it works

Get to regular frequent meetings, remind yourself what is out there if you pick up again, do some dishes, pick up some chairs.

1st step and 3rd tradition..... That's all you need, so I was told and so I thought.

silentrun

It's not uncommon for people with substance abuse to have underlying problems even after the damage from the alcohol has reversed. Some quite serious and needing professional help with medications. Could it be that those people instead of not having a real alcohol problem just don't suffer with the same other problems? I can't figure out why someone would go to AA unless they felt like they needed to. What in your mind would constitute the "real deal?" I am asking because you are not the first to say something along those lines.

whalebelow

Rather than give you my opinion, I advise reading "The Doctors Opinion" in the book Alcoholics Anonymous.

This Dr. worked with an estimated 40,000 people with alcohol problems.

I don't have anywhere near that kind of experience.

He outlines, in his opinion, the differences.

silentrun

I'm asking you. You stated in your opinion there were people at AA that should maybe not be there as they complicate things. Don't do that thing were you refer me to some oracle of knowledge for things I lack understanding of that you have. I'm asking you. I will go check it out online and maybe you could read this.
Alcoholics Anonymous > Is AA For You? > The AA Big Book > They Stopped in Time

schnappi99

A friend of mine in AA told me about a few regulars in his meetings. Some relapse some don't but they clearly have underlying mental health issues. Some refuse to see a doctor to maybe get on antidepressants because its "not in the big book" ie AA is the only way and if its not in the bb then its not for them. Might be if Dr Bob met them he'd suggest additional meds.. or not- would they accept even his suggestion.. some might, some might not.

Maybe thats as far as those hurting souls can go, a flickering uncertain sort of recovery.. moments of twilight before the darkness comes again.

Should any of us blessed with clearer minds be passing judgement on who should or should not be in the program?

silentrun

Well whadda know. I'm the real deal. It wouldn't let me copy and paste. There was quite a bit that applied to me. There was no logical reason for why I drank.
Here is the first part that applied

It did not satisfy us to be told that we could not control our drinking just because we were maladjusted to life, that we were in full flight from reality, or we were outright mental defects. (no that wasn't why I drank either)

whalebelow

Well one story I heard in a meeting went something like this, it is not verbatim, so my recollection will have to suffice.

A now elderly lady, drank 6 glasses of Sherry each night after dinner. Never drank to black out point, always 6 glasses because that was all she allowed herself & then off to bed.

At an office Xmas party she was drinking some obviously high powered punch.

She got more drunk than she was used to, and was later caught half naked with her boss in his office.

In marriage counselling, the counsellor suggested she might find it useful to go to AA.

So she did & there, she heard stories of other people who drank too much & did stuff they wish they hadn't.

Self diagnosed as "Alcoholic", she has not drank again for some 30 years & simply attends regular frequent meetings. Loves the fellowship, is involved in committee etc

So ... don't get me wrong, I am very happy that she is happy & contented now.

However, I have seen many people come into the rooms & be told that "meeting attendance" was simply all they needed.

I have even seen it wreck marriages as the wife & kids are now AA widows and orphans. They are advised, “do meetings like you drank”, and so being everyday drinkers, they are in a meeting every night of the week.

It is such a shame, because, ultimately they can't stay sober or they end up "dry drunk" and usually that means they are behaving in a similar fashion to the drinking days, except now they aren’t drinking.

Meeting attendance cannot fix them, The Steps & outside counselling combined can.
I have seen it first hand. Some absolute lunatics are now reconciled with families they thought would never speak to them again.

jaynie04

I am not in AA but I am very familiar with the program and have seen friends and family find hope and recovery in the rooms.

AA is a big stick to wield, whale below. I would imagine being part of a fellowship that your primary goal would be to be as inclusive as possible. I think a lot of people who cross the threshold to a meeting for a first time have been beaten down in life. The last thing they need to hear is that this is one more club that is too exclusive for them to join, because they don't fit someone else's interpretation of what constitutes an alcoholic.

I also think that we have entered an age where info about recovery is disseminated in a much more accessible and mainstream fashion. The likely outcome…you may continue to see more "high bottom" drunks getting help sooner rather than later. The idea of the progression of alcoholism is no longer confined to drunk tanks.

I doubt Bill W. could have envisioned the internet, or cell phones or the ability to read a book simply by pressing some buttons on your computer. I don't doubt however that he would have fully leveraged these options to get the message out. I also think that it benefits all of us to be able to catch each other on the way down, not after we hit the floor and need to be scraped up.

And I highly doubt that many people go undercover as alcoholics in AA simply to enjoy the coffee that gets so highly praised ().