Gottalife

I have sometimes wondered why the Big Book does not specifically instruct us to take our 5th with another AA member. Then I discovered that the Little Red Book goes much further and suggests taking this step with anyone other than an AA member.

My 5th was taken with my sponsor and I have never regretted it, everything happened just as described in the Big book. But I know that is not always the case.

In the past few weeks I have taken two men through the steps, and suggested they do their 5th with someone of their choice, according to the criteria in the book. The first went to an Anglican minister. When he came back we reviewed the work so far, then went through and checked off each of the 5th step promises. He was "delighted" .

The second man went to his sponsor from another fellowship. After his 5th he told me he felt awful. We went and checked the previous work, all good, we talked about holding something back, no, there didn't appear to be anything standing between him and the promises.

So I asked him about how his sponsor played his part. And there we have it. His sponsor was constantly critical of him, highlighting his defects, emphasising how wrong he was in the things he did, and relentlessly beat him up. He was very judgemental.

I thought, if my sponsor had done that, I would have quietly gone away and killed myself. It took every ounce of courage I could muster to tell him my wrongs.

I guess he was doing it the way his sponsor had done it with him. And there is the point. There is no instruction in the Big Book about how to hear a fifth step. But there are trained people, ministers, counsellors, therapists and and others who do know how to handle this most intimate of steps.

When ever I heard someone say they felt crap after their fifth, I used to think they had held something back or done something wrong, and maybe that was right for some. But now I wonder about the person they chose to hear it. Did they really understand what this step is all about?

The man I am working with required a lot of reassurance and understanding after this experience and has agreed to go to the minister and re do the step. The experience almost tipped him out of the fellowship and out of his recovery.

My experience is that there are sponsors in AA capable of hearing a fifth step properly, and not wading in with their own egos and opinions, but I will suggest to all that they think very hard about who they are going to trust, and give serious consideration to going outside the fellowship.

Some sponsors may object, saying "If I haven't heard their fifth, how will I know they have done it properly?" To which I say, you will know. The spritual experience starts with this step, and its manifestation is obvious to any observer.

FeenixxRising

I posted this link on this forum a month or so ago. I came across this while doing some research on Catholic confession. Written by a Catholic priest, the paper offers advice and directions on how (all) clergy can best hear someone's 5th Step and help that person afterwards.

I didn't read the paper thoroughly, but from the pages I've read, it appears the author has a good understanding of the 5th Step and the importance of avoiding judgment or proselytizing by clergy when hearing someone's 5th Step. So it appears to be addressing the issues you've raised. While it was written for clergy, I would imagine it could also be helpful to laypersons who hear 5th Steps.

http://www.nacoa.org/pdfs/Latcovich-...20Step.doc.pdf

awuh1

This is a great topic Gottalife! I had a very bad experience following my 4th and 5th. My sponsor was sympathetic enough, but in retrospect may not have been the best person to hear my 5th. I wish I would have better examined what the book says about this, and it does have a few words").

"Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose the person or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step. Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive it. Though we have no religious conception, we may still do well to talk with someone ordained by an established religion. We often find such a person quick to see and understand our problem......If we cannot or would rather not do this, we search our acquaintance for a close-mouthed, understanding friend. Perhaps our doctor or psychologist will be the person. It may be one of our own family, but we cannot disclose anything to our wives or our parents which will hurt them and make them unhappy. We have no right to save our own skin at another person’s expense. Such parts of our story we tell to someone who will understand, yet be unaffected." Alcoholics Anonymous 1st edition

I had no idea the little red book suggested anyone other than an AA member. I think that in many cases, that may be best.

desypete

i did my 5th step with a monk outside of the fellowship, it nealry killed me admitting all my past to this guy he simply said to me right from today onwards try to live your life and dont repeat the past mistakes and you will gain forgiveness

i went around aa meetings telling them all off for having such a step as i hated myself big time
it was the first time i had ever really and honestly seen me for what i truely was

it took me a good few months to let go of my shame and guilt over the step
but now i have done it i am so glad i have as i left nothing out there is nothing hidden anymore today about me and i am free from the guilt of it all or the shame as that monk was right
the more i lived my life by not doint those things anymore the more i would forgive myself
step 12 really was the step that healed me from my guilt or the hate i had for myself as i soon found out i could be a good person if i tried

i would recommend anyone doing the 5th step to look outside of the fellowship only because
sponsors also have clay feet they could end up drunk again and worse case could spill out all your personal stuff to anyone etc

i well remember i went to a local take away and a girl was there standing in the que clearly the worse for wear with drink she seen me and recognized me from aa then she enjoyed telling the whole shop of people that i was a drunk and i had hit my ex wife and been to prison blah blah blah

it taught me a lesson about alcoholics who might end up slipping back on the drink and if that would of been my sponsor who knew everything about me well it just doesn't bear thinking about

Tommyh

this may not be too popular but...


my first formal 5th step was with a Catholic Priest.It went like the big book said it would.
My second formal 5th step went with my present sponsor.I told him everything.I could care less if he told the whole world......I just don`t give a rats behind.
I am not ashamed anymore,the shame has been removed and sanity returned.I have a new life now.I have been reborn.

I have heard a lot of 5th steps,and to tell you the truth,I don`t remember much of what anyone of them said.Would I blab what little I remember?Something inside me prevents that from happening.

I couldn`t if I wanted to.That`s Grace , love and sanity working despite of what others may think.

I would not take a 5th step with just anyone in AA,many are not in the position to be spiritual about it.


If I sponsor someone they are free to do their 5th step with anyone they please,but be aware,I will read your 4th step first or you can come back and do it with me later.....or get yourself another sponsor.I am rigid on this.If I sponsor a guy,it is with all 12 steps,not just what he wants or 11 steps.

Tommyh

by the way Mike,good topic

biminiblue

I don't think a fifth step should be shared with an AAer.

I have quite a bit of trauma in my past and it fueled a lot of my behavior for most of my twenties. I don't think a lay person should be taking trauma victims through this type of exercise - the potential for retraumatizing them is there no matter who hears it, but a lay person does not have the training to close those wounds again before letting the person leave. I can see the possibility that someone could be damaged greatly by the wrong thing said by a sponsor during or after a fifth step. Even worse is the feeling by the sponsee that their story could be shared with someone else in the fellowship.

Some secrets need to be protected and shared only in the safety of someone who is sworn not to share them with anyone else. Part of trauma's legacy is distrust. Without knowing someone's entire history, no one should be able to sit in judgment nor should have the potential to reveal another's past. The kind of vulnerability required to confess a fifth step can't be gained in a sponsor/sponsee relationship, IMO.

Nothing happens in a vacuum, and hurt people hurt people.

I don't have anything illegal to get off my chest, but I'll never do a fifth step with an AAer, either.

Sadly, I think people are turned off and leave AA because of the insistence of doing the steps with a sponsor - and especially in the early days of their sobriety. Give the newcomers time to get their feet under them - if they want to do the steps they will. This prodding and pushing to do them early on seems invasive. I know for me it takes a long time to trust people and the more they push, the more I pull back. This is one of the reasons I stopped AA. Sad, because I could have used the fellowship, but not the poking.

Carlotta

I have done several 5ths.
My first time around in AA I did it with my sponsor whom I trusted fully (I love the term soulfriend in the reading Feenix shared with us). I did another 5th with a Catholic nun (not for AA).
This time around since my sponsor passed away, I did my fifth with a priest. It was a very positibe experience for me and i felt the burden being lifted.
I really do not want to hear anyone's 5th: too much potential for drama >rolling eyes<. My sponsee relapsed and never even got to do a fourth but if she had made it, I would have suggested that she does it with a person of the cloth.

Thank you very much Feenix for that link. I downloaded the document

DayTrader

I'll read a 5th step to anyone......but my sponsor will always be one of those people. I've heard good and bad about doing it with AA ppl and good and bad about doing it with non-AA people so I don't pin bad experiences on either group. I don't care (anymore) how tight-lipped that person is either. Once I share that stuff, the actual act of turning it over to the universe and to God, it's out of my hands and none of my business. *Early on, I should note, I was very secretive about my inventory as I had only heard of but never first-hand experienced the process of actually letting go of that stuff.

I also believe I get what I'm supposed to get out of my 4th/5th step experience even when I don't feel satisfied - which can be quite often when I'm off my spiritual game, deciding how things should be, and trying to control them. I said for years my first 5th step was a waste of time. Now I can see how that judgment was wrong. I got exactly what I was supposed to get. Seven years later, I would have told you my most recent 5th step was......wait for it.........yup, a waste of time. ha.....sometimes quickly sometimes slowly. Once again, I got precisely what I was supposed to get from it, even though I didn't believe that at the time. Right or wrong, I believe things DO happen the way they do for a reason .....though I usually lack the understanding as to why.

I find a lot of value, for me AND for the person hearing my 5th step, when I do it with other ppl in AA. On one or two occasions, I'd say now that the main benefactor was the person hearing it......not me, and once again, I felt cheated (heh...... I can be selfish even when sharing a 5th step about how bad my selfishness is!).

Currently I've been doing multiple 5th steps with the same inventory and as far as what I'M getting out of it.......it's been a wise decision. Each person hears it a little differently, reacts a little differently, and sheds light on different parts than the others. Some of the ppl I deemed "qualified" didn't give me much I could use and one guy who I reeeeally thought wasn't ready to hear a fifth step of the magnitude, depth and importance I'd just written (ah, I love being grandiose.....) was remarkably insightful.

I don't think it makes sense to be haphazard in selecting the ppl I share with but it's also been my experience that some of the ppl I thought would be awesome.....weren't and some of the ppl that seemed to be put in my path but I was convinced would be duds......weren't. So, I try and select as wisely as I can but ultimately, I think HP's going to put the people in my path that need to be there to hear it. The less I resist that, the more I seem to benefit.

fraankie

the "little red book" is not aa approved literature
but that's not my business

i personally has a step sponsor
and i did my steps with him

everyone has their own program
so godspeed

best fraankie

sugarbear1

my sponsor stressed being useful to others or how my behavior was not useful and how could it have been more useful or how could it be more useful...and i began to see how i can be more useful to others today.....

NoelleR

"...the "little red book" is not aa approved literature..."

Just in case someone/anyone doesn't know, or isn't sure, the term 'Conference Approved Literature' only means it's prnted/published by AAWS; AA does NOT appeove or disapprove any literature.

http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-29_en.pdf

(o:
NoelleR

Gottalife

That reminds me of the help my sponsor gave me workinng through my fourth step. It was very useful in helping me understand the meaning of words like selfish, dishonest, lazy, lust, resentment, jealousy, etc etc as they applied to me. By the time we had finished the inventory, I had a good understanding of it. I still have it today and anyone in my family could read it, and no one would be hurt.

Then we went to the next chapter, Into Action, to look at step 5. The inventory had already been discussed, but we had to go much further. This was the weird insane stuff never heard at meetings. Perhaps not directly harmful to others, but betrayals of my own values, described in the Big Book.

"Coming to his senses, he is revolted at certain episodes he vaguely remembers. these memroies are a nightmare. He trembles to think somone might nave observed him. As fast as he can he pushes these memories far inside himself. He hopes they will never see the light of day. he is under constant fear and tension..."

These were the things that kept me feeling alone and ashamed in AA. These things could hurt my family, or change my relationship with them. These are the things that kept me awake at night. These are the skeletons in the closet. It took all my courage to get them out and give them a good airing.

This was the very personal stuff that needed to be handled with care and compassion by the person hearing my fifth. The way my sponsor handled this resulted in me understanding that I was just an ordinary alcoholic that did crazy stuff like alcoholics do. I lost my shame and lonliness, I felt part of AA, and the human race, for the first time. I felt forgiven, and I experienced those promises in the book.

I wonder what might have happened had it been handled differently, say by an amatuer therapist with an inflated ego, not that there are many of them in AA.

Soberpotamus

Very interesting thread. I'm glad I've paused before proceeding onward into step 5 now. I figured picking someone to hear Step 5 was reason enough for some serious consideration. And interesting that the Little Red Book does indicate the value in picking someone outside of AA to hear the 5th. Since this book isn't GSO conference approved, I wonder what the prevailing attitude (if there is one) is on this in the fellowship?

Ken33xx

I got sober overseas and many members were in the same occupation as myself. Early on in sobriety there was an incident where a member took what he heard at a meeting and used it outside.

And to be honest I didn't trust my first sponsor to keep his mouth shut.

However, being overseas my situation was rather unusual whereas in the States it's easy to find members who have no connection to your work.

I was raised Catholic and found the 5th step the same as going to confession. Unfortunately, after going to confession a number times the therapeutic value diminished.

But I still recall my first "5th step" back in the third grade

desypete

this reminds me of a chap who did his step 4 - 5 he put all his trust in doing these steps as he wanted to remain sober and change like we all do

however doing his step 4 he had written out his life story almost with everything bad he had done highlighted for ease so he could addmit these things with his sponsor when doing step 5

i remember how scared this guy was of doing these steps and how pleased he was after doing them
until he found out his ex wife had read his step 4 and seen all his bad things he had done in his life that would of been a total shock to her
this ended there relationship in a violent manner and the lad went off and drank again

i understand your feeling about it being out there with a god that you beileve in but in the real world when people find out things in this sort of manner it has real life consequences

these steps are soul destroying for people to face themselves and in the wrong hands can be such damaging things happen as a result

i wouldnt trust any sponsor who demanded i tell them all my secrets any good honest sponsor will give you the option to choose how to do this step either with them or with someone outside of the fellowship or whatever way they want to do it

its all about the person doing the step not the ego of a sponsor who demands

Ken33xx

Let's face it. There's often gossip within the rooms of AA and I'm careful about what I share 5th step or not.

I work with members and I don't trust several of them regardless of their sobriety date.

Tommyh

my sponsor looked at my 4th step all along while I was doing it to help me stay on the right track and see I was doing the work.When it came to step 5 he already knew everything anyway.
I do the same.It takes some of the fear out.Fear of people will leave us.
Those promises was coming true.
Now my sponsor did ask if I wanted a member of the clergy to hear it too.
I said no.

trusting other AA members has came up...I don`t have to trust them as long as I trust and rely in God.If I don`t trust them maybe it is because I don `t trust and rely in God?

Carlotta

Or could it be because they are many unbalanced individuals, drama queens and assorted gossips in the rooms of AA?

Soberpotamus

Carlotta, lmao.