4thdimension86

I hate to sound so judgmental but I truly believe that some people simply lack certain traits that are necessary to get sober and function in life. The constitutionally incapable variety if you will. I work in a treatment facility and get to work with many types of people. I don't believe that some people can achieve "true sobriety." I started thinking about this because I know someone who is so good at lying to themselves and creating delusions that justify their behavior that he may never get sober. All addicts such as myself lie and are delusional to some extant but I never actually believed my own lies. I knew I was lying. I also believe that some people simply lack the ability to grow and mature. I always hear people say that drinking and drug use stunts a person ability to do so. I do not believe that. People always assume that I am much older than I am. They have my entire life. I know plenty of alcoholics in active addiction who seem normal and appear to be as mature as they should be but they simply cannot stop drinking because of the obsession. Some are sicker than others I guess? Just wonder what other think about this.

yeahgr8

Addiction does stunt your ability to grow emotionally, it is irrelevant as to what age people assign to your learned behaviours.

There are lies that alcoholics recognise telling and lies they tell themselves which they will not recognise until they gave had a significant change in personality and gone through some rigorous self examination.

Rigorous honesty is required for anyone to get sober along with a willingness. However there are those who are incapable of being honest and I have seen them go on to the end.

tomsteve

old joe that I have posted about was very well educated and taught me something about constitutionally incapable of being honest:
to be that way, a persons IQ is so low they cant grasp what it means to be honest.

why some get clean and sober and not others? could be many different factors
but I do believe that some of it has to do with some truly are sicker than others.

Carlotta

This is good food for thoughts, I have been contemplating it too. Some people cannot get honest with themselves then there are those who have no denial, admit to being alcoholics and addicts, know the consequences yet keep doing it and will probably keep it up till their grave
I interact through my work with people who are in active addiction (I mean low bottom, lost everything, homeless, in terrible health, criminal records) and it is amazing how many of them have absolutely no denial, know there is help out there yet are so caught up in "the life" that they just keep using and drinking.
Those of us in recovery are blessed.

Db1105

I've watched a friend struggle with this disease for over 30 years before she was able 'get it'. She has a few years now. I doubt if I would of be able to handle what she's been through. I've lost count of those who died as the result of this disease. It's out of my hand who gets it. It's my job to try to help no matter how much they struggle.

Stoogy

Good thread, I truly believe that every person is capable of change, it's just a case of how bad do they actually want or need it. My opinion that's all.
Look forward to reading more of the posts.

4thdimension86

Addiction fascinates me. I believe there are different types of addicts. We are all alike but different in many ways as well. I also wonder if Nature vs. Nurture has anything to do with it. I was watching a video of a psychiatrist interview the "Ice Man." He was a hit man/serial killer that killed any where from 100-200 people. He seemed pretty normal and managed to maintain a some what normal family life which he kept separate from his killing. However, the way he described how he felt about killing sounded a lot like the way an addict feels about using. I think he was just an addict whose drug of choice was murder. I have come into contact with many types of addicts since I got sober. There are the variety who seem to acknowledge that what they do is wrong but seem to simply not care. They make no attempt to rationalize or justify their behavior. They seem content living the way that they live. I have net individuals who seem to suffer from some kind of a mental disorder that may prevent them from getting sober. Even before I got sober I was curious about addiction. Most people agree that I had a really rough childhood and always assumed that was why I used. Maybe that was the case but I really don't believe that. The truth was that I used to hate alcoholics, addicts, and drugs. I never thought I would become addicted to anything. I guess there is no sense in trying to figure it all out is there? That's just they way things are? Maybe God intended things to be this way? Why was I rescued from the insanity but others are not? All this floats around in my head.

4thdimension86

I almost wonder if the time I spent in active addiction was part of God's plan. I can honestly say that I did not like using. However, the obsession was so strong that I could not stop myself. If was as if a supernatural force took control of my body. I would do things fully knowing that there would be consequences. I am not so sure it would have mattered if I was offered a solution before I was. I could have been willing and honest and I don't think it would have mattered. I remember feeling so powerless over my own actions while I was using. I can't take credit for the obsession being removed either. I simply lost the desire before I went to rehab and discovered AA. There was just this point I hit about a week before I went to treatment when drugs simply didn't work and I didn't want them any more. Things that happened during my active addiction have also come into play in my sobriety. They just aren't happy coincidences. Looking back on them it makes complete sense to me. God was working in my life before I got sober.

UncleMeat69

I met a few whose IQ was so high they couldn't grasp it because of
too much analysis leading to paralysis.

My sponsor would say to those types, what he said to me:
"For people like you Joe, the Steps are numbered !"

Lack of power is my dilemma because I am constitutionally incapable
of being able to see the truth in the matter of drink. There is nothing
between the thought to drink and the action of taking a drink. My only
defense comes through a psychic change sufficient to recover from
this mental disability.

4thdimension86

Ya, from what I have witnessed it seems like the people who can't get sober are the ones who think they are the smartest people in the world. In fact I know several such individuals who are very intelligent. They scored above average on IQ tests and everything. They did well academically. They are talented at certain things as well. My buddies father was one of the smartest people I have ever known but he was a raging alcoholic right up until the day he died. I wonder if his complex mind prevented him from seeing the truth? Maybe they are much more adapt at creating intricate delusions? I was never good at lying to anyone including myself.

keithj

My experience of working with others leads me to believe that Step 1 can't be forced. Some 'truth' can't be seen until it's seen. Now, I have witnessed numerous people, after decades of bouncing in and out of the rooms unable to see Step 1 in their own lives, one day become willing to take the actions we found necessary to recover. Happens all the time.

muvinon

I just consider this one of those mysteries. All I really know is that I feel terribly wormy when someone says, "So-n-So is constitutionally incapable...."

In a general sense, I find that useful to recognize. When applied to individuals, I just can't go there.

I watched someone in a meeting consistently violate a principle for 7 years. Then, one day, she announced that she had found the program to be the only solution. That day, her entire demeanor changed. She stopped the violation.

It was a terribly good lesson for me that timing is not within my control. How often have I muttered the "other person" prayer......."Dear God, let them get it today."

And yet, I have no explanation for why I reached the point where I could no longer drink and live and I just wasn't dying.

Redmayne

Only those who, for whatever reason, often because they're mentally incapable of accepting the suggested 12 Step progamm of recovery outlined in the bool 'Alcoholics Anonymous' ...

Then again, those suffering identifiable mental health problems rarely become alcoholics, which tends to rule them out.

So my answer, others may differ is, no.

NYCDoglvr

I think some people are too self-destructive to stay sober. It takes honesty and willingness to go to any lengths ... it's a huge gift to have these two things.

sugarbear1

The Immortal Alcoholic

Pipefish

That line in the BB and the following part 'such unfortunates' has always made me uncomfortable. Have generally attributed it to the era of the book when understanding of alcoholism as in part a shame based condition would not have been in the ether. This being the case, could end up with 99.9% of the room thinking 'they're talking about me' and while not necessarily a bad thing, have always found it to be too categoric and black & white.

There are I think degrees of honesty & experiences which cause scales to fall from eyes, and these differ between each of us. Like the OP & other posters here I've worked for two homelessness organisations who've provided what can only be termed as palliative care for chronic alcoholics. Getting sober takes a resilience, & a genuine belief, at some level & however tiny, that you matter & are worth saving your own life. Those are gifts that some just don't have, and that line, in that context, has always seemed overly harsh & counterproductive.

For sure the programme is based on honesty with self and others and what I see as the 'truth' of a matter can, and does, change over time. Isn't that the nature of growth? And (taking other's inventory alert!) I see ostensibly sober people who behave with little integrity who I hear patting themselves on the back for their capacity to be honest, while behaving like toerags. Hmmm, maybe things are never so black & white

And me too....if I hear someone saying this about another, makes me shudder.Not my place to judge when or whether someone will get sober or not. Can't afford to get that high handed about it. I am after all just another drunk who is fortunate enough to be sober today.

Tommyh

there may be brain damage preventing someone from attaining the honesty needed
so,I figure I can serve better if I focus on those who want it bad enough to work for it
rather than those who do not get it
they seem to be a mystery I cannot solve.

UncleMeat69

When I first got sober, I knew little or nothing about honesty or willingness.
I only knew the complete and utter desperation of living a life of agony and
despair, unable to see any light at the end of the tunnel.

First time I heard that line I didn't feel shame or guilt, I felt the real fear that I could die drunk, on skid row with a "short dog" in my hand and **** all over my filthy pants.
The vision I saw was crystal clear. I realized the truth in the matter of drink for me was that I have a "Killer illness" and if I keep making the same choices as I did in my past,
that would be my future. I was such an "unfortunate" but I was desperate enough to change. No nobility or goodness involved, just the spark of survival kicking into operation.

I have always believed it "takes what it takes" for any alcoholic. But I have had the sad experience to work with people who ran out of time and chances to get "enough" pain to change. I do judge them because they represent to me that this program is a life or death deal. The "unfortunate" dead ones serve a very important purpose in teaching me that fact of life and staying alive by making a decision to change my actions and behavior,
before its too late. The unfortunate ones teach me that I know I have another drunk in me, but I don't have another recovery. They teach me that I have a progressive disease and that if I pick up now I won't be where I left off, but "as if" I had been drinking for the last 30 years - which would put me at late Stage 3 of the illness.

In conclusion, my answer to the OP is yes, there are some people who are incapable of getting sober. I personally witnessed the burial of three of them who died drunk and whom I loved to the core of my being. My solution was enough desperation to motivate me into the action outlined in Chapters 5 & 6 of the BB as well as following the direction and teachings of my sponsor regarding those instructions coupled with the meetings and fellowship of AA.

paul99

Could it be as simple as the alcoholism killed those "unfortunates" before they had a chance to get honest? Time, and the ravages of an alcoholic life, sometimes doesn't afford us the opportunity to finally "get it". Or, it's too late if we do get it. Those who were able to recover, as most of us here and out there are, are blessed. Can I say that those men and women who lay under tombstones were incapable, or even unwilling, to get sober? And would they have gotten sober, if they were given more dire and dangerous emotional and mental anguish? I don't know.

I know one thing - many folks who I had written off at one point had come around and took that long hard look inward and saw the writing on the wall. They surrendered and recovered.

I pray that I can help those who still suffer, instead of wondering if they will make it or not.

4thdimension86

I wonder if there is a difference between criminals who happen to drink and do drugs and individuals who will commit crimes because of their addiction? I would only steal,lie, hustle, ect, to support my habit. Even then I had to be very desperate. I really can't say that it is in my nature to do things like that. It was only when I was heavily addicted to hard drugs. I know many other people who lie, cheat, steal, ect for no reason at all. I had an old drinking buddy who seemed to steal for the sake of stealing. He had no motive for doing the things he did he just did them for the sake of doing them. He doesn't drink everyday either. He had no drug habit to support. He has never expressed the slightest bit of shame or guilt for the things he does. I kind of think that he would still be nuts if he got sober. I was looking at the stipulations for a drug court program in a city near where I live. It was specified that there was a difference between addicts who commit crimes because of their addiction and criminals who happen to use drugs. I really think some people are just stone cold narcissists. I don't think they need drugs to numb their minds as I did. I could do shady things while intoxicated because my conscience would be silenced. Some people seem to be able to do dirt regardless of whether or not they are on a mind altering substance.