Do you think some people are incapable of getting sober?
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Being honest....seeing the world they way it really is...is painful.
For some folks this can be more painful than others. Some can't, for many reasons, tolerate the pain caused by dropping our illusions and resentments, dropping blame, beginning to look at our own actions values and beliefs. ..
Capacity to be honest...as i see it it's not an accusation...that some folks are bad or like to lie....but there are such unfortunates. The pain of waking up and living in the truth would be too great...so we stay living in the lie...
P
For some folks this can be more painful than others. Some can't, for many reasons, tolerate the pain caused by dropping our illusions and resentments, dropping blame, beginning to look at our own actions values and beliefs. ..
Capacity to be honest...as i see it it's not an accusation...that some folks are bad or like to lie....but there are such unfortunates. The pain of waking up and living in the truth would be too great...so we stay living in the lie...
P
paradox
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 665
That first paragraph of Chapter 5 is very important to me.
As a beginner, I would often hear that read out at meetings and it would give me hope.
I was an habitual liar before working the twelve steps.
I still catch myself lying for seemingly no reason.
I also suffer from a grave mental disorder -- bipolar.
In the end, I learned that I could recover if I had the capacity to be honest.
I didn't know it at the time, but I am capable of being honest.
More importantly, I needed to look back at the beginning of the paragraph.
I need to completely give myself to this simple programme.
If I can do that, other stumbling blocks to recovery, like dishonesty, can be overcome.
So, whatever the reasons -- dishonesty, fear, resistance to change, ego, pride, ad infinitum . . .
something stops some of us from completely giving ourselves over to the 12 step programme of recovery.
And which of us has not been slowed down on our path to recovery by some of these impediments?
In my humble opinion: if we can state our first name and say, "I am an alcoholic." then we have the capacity to be honest -- even with ourselves.
The question remains: Can we, or will we, completely give ourselves to this simple program?
Perhaps anyone can. But, will they?
All I can do is carry on.
Fortunately, the programme itself tells me to try and help others.
As a beginner, I would often hear that read out at meetings and it would give me hope.
I was an habitual liar before working the twelve steps.
I still catch myself lying for seemingly no reason.
I also suffer from a grave mental disorder -- bipolar.
In the end, I learned that I could recover if I had the capacity to be honest.
I didn't know it at the time, but I am capable of being honest.
More importantly, I needed to look back at the beginning of the paragraph.
I need to completely give myself to this simple programme.
If I can do that, other stumbling blocks to recovery, like dishonesty, can be overcome.
So, whatever the reasons -- dishonesty, fear, resistance to change, ego, pride, ad infinitum . . .
something stops some of us from completely giving ourselves over to the 12 step programme of recovery.
And which of us has not been slowed down on our path to recovery by some of these impediments?
In my humble opinion: if we can state our first name and say, "I am an alcoholic." then we have the capacity to be honest -- even with ourselves.
The question remains: Can we, or will we, completely give ourselves to this simple program?
Perhaps anyone can. But, will they?
All I can do is carry on.
Fortunately, the programme itself tells me to try and help others.
Last edited by dox; 04-22-2014 at 05:57 AM. Reason: spelling
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Can I say that those men and women who lay under tombstones were incapable, or even unwilling, to get sober?
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Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr 
Sure, there are people who have no interest or intention in getting sober. They don't want it. What I've learned over several decades of sobriety is I'm personally unable to know what's in anyone else's head or heart. I know people who went to meetings for a decade then stopped and are pushing 30 years of sobriety with no program. I think it's pure arrogance to think only AA works, or it's the right thing for everyone. The majority of recovering alcoholics get sober without AA. "It's a program for people who want it, not for people who need it." It's only important for me to know I need AA meetings to stay sober.
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Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr
Sure, there are people who have no interest or intention in getting sober. They don't want it. What I've learned over several decades of sobriety is I'm personally unable to know what's in anyone else's head or heart. I know people who went to meetings for a decade then stopped and are pushing 30 years of sobriety with no program. I think it's pure arrogance to think only AA works, or it's the right thing for everyone. The majority of recovering alcoholics get sober without AA. "It's a program for people who want it, not for people who need it." It's only important for me to know I need AA meetings to stay sober.
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: torrance ca
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i think constitutionally is referencing the fact that some people are born with chemical and mental problems...constituted literally means what you are made of...which is why its unfortunate, they can't change how they were born....he's just painting a picture of why some will not be able to "get it"
he starts the paragraph by saying if you follow the path you will get it...although if you cannot or will not be honest you won't...and for those people who cannot or will not its usually cuz they were born like that, with a problem other than alcoholism.
he starts the paragraph by saying if you follow the path you will get it...although if you cannot or will not be honest you won't...and for those people who cannot or will not its usually cuz they were born like that, with a problem other than alcoholism.
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: torrance ca
Posts: 14
to often this paragraph is used as a cop out by newcomers or people who relapse as a way of again dodging the truth of the matter..."well i must just be incapable"...but the reality for me having been a relapser and a person who often thought this to himself is that i was unable to see my own powerlessness until i had relapsed a number of times and my life was again in the toilet was i able to see my own truth.
to often new people walk into aa and hear **** like "just don't drink today" or "don't drink no matter what" and they start believing it, feeding there own ego and believing that they once again they have power over there own alcoholism...forgetting the very reason they walked into AA was because they couldn't stop drinking BEFORE they start drinking.
the simple fact for me is i can't ever stay stopped...and until that was fully realized to the extent where the last flicker of hope for me to do the job myself was snuffed out, i couldn't stay sober.
to often new people walk into aa and hear **** like "just don't drink today" or "don't drink no matter what" and they start believing it, feeding there own ego and believing that they once again they have power over there own alcoholism...forgetting the very reason they walked into AA was because they couldn't stop drinking BEFORE they start drinking.
the simple fact for me is i can't ever stay stopped...and until that was fully realized to the extent where the last flicker of hope for me to do the job myself was snuffed out, i couldn't stay sober.
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Wisconsin
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I don't know what makes me different from others. I think that there are people who wanted to get sober every bit as much as I did and have been incapable of it for some reason.
If there is any divine intervention, this is mine. It is a moment, or experience of clarity that I had to change and then opened myself to change.
Constitutionally refers to a persons constitution akin to their personality, their being. It is a term of the time the bb was written.
I think that some people truly have intermingled their addiction with their selves and perhaps a co existing mental condition that just makes it too hard to overcome.
I also think that the longer you live as an addict, the harder it is to do the hard work of changing your whole life, and reckoning with all you've done over the years. It is simply overwhelming to stay sober and deal with the wreckage, your life, reinventing yourself.
If there is any divine intervention, this is mine. It is a moment, or experience of clarity that I had to change and then opened myself to change.
Constitutionally refers to a persons constitution akin to their personality, their being. It is a term of the time the bb was written.
I think that some people truly have intermingled their addiction with their selves and perhaps a co existing mental condition that just makes it too hard to overcome.
I also think that the longer you live as an addict, the harder it is to do the hard work of changing your whole life, and reckoning with all you've done over the years. It is simply overwhelming to stay sober and deal with the wreckage, your life, reinventing yourself.
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Perhaps it would help if you define "incapable" by giving examples. It's ludicrous to say or imply "all alcoholics" "no alcoholics". If you're talking mental illness, some do, some don't get sober. I have no way of knowing why some get sober while others don't.
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Great thread don't get me wrong but it's a pretty obvious answer to the question posed if you have been sober in AA a while. I know a good 2 handfuls of people who were incapable of getting sober and are dead.
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 285
No individual is ever beyond hope. I've only been at this a couple of years and already I've seen a lot of miracles.
(I was one of those who believed my own lies for years. I have been able to get sober, but it also required a doctor and multiple psych meds to get me to a point that my brain could grasp honesty, willingness, and sobriety. I'm not looking to start another debate here about medications, just saying that some may need a different path than others. I refuse to believe that my higher power would put a person on this earth that's doomed to a life of misery through addiction).
(I was one of those who believed my own lies for years. I have been able to get sober, but it also required a doctor and multiple psych meds to get me to a point that my brain could grasp honesty, willingness, and sobriety. I'm not looking to start another debate here about medications, just saying that some may need a different path than others. I refuse to believe that my higher power would put a person on this earth that's doomed to a life of misery through addiction).
paradox
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 665
I have to agree with Riverbird.
Never give up.
However, Yeahgr8 has a point.
But, do we ever know that they WERE incapable of getting sober until they are dead?
I think not.
I know a couple of us who were extremely close to death's door and yet miraculously found their way back to living through the 12 step programme of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Their stories are hope-inspiring.
Then there are those of us who have been in and out of AA for ten or more years. Seemingly hopeless, they would never "get it", some might say.
Then something happens -- call it a miracle -- and they do it.
Their stories are no less inspiring.
There comes point where we have to detach with love when trying to help an alcoholic that doesn't pick up what we are offering.
Nevertheless, their higher power may have plans for them that we don't know about.
Life ain't over 'til it's over.
Never give up.
However, Yeahgr8 has a point.
But, do we ever know that they WERE incapable of getting sober until they are dead?
I think not.
I know a couple of us who were extremely close to death's door and yet miraculously found their way back to living through the 12 step programme of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Their stories are hope-inspiring.
Then there are those of us who have been in and out of AA for ten or more years. Seemingly hopeless, they would never "get it", some might say.
Then something happens -- call it a miracle -- and they do it.
Their stories are no less inspiring.
There comes point where we have to detach with love when trying to help an alcoholic that doesn't pick up what we are offering.
Nevertheless, their higher power may have plans for them that we don't know about.
Life ain't over 'til it's over.
Last edited by dox; 04-28-2014 at 10:30 AM. Reason: grammar
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OK I am not trying to be a smart*ss here, but the whole reason that the 12 Steps exist is because I am incapable of getting sober.
Before I recovered, "I can't" was one of the top 2 scariest things I could ever imagine saying...now, when those words come out of my mouth, my immediate second thought is: "...but God can."
When I -- or anyone else -- am with God and acting in accordance with His will for me at that moment, my own limitations are irrelevant. God, of course, has no limitations...other than insofaras I limit what He can do in my life by deciding certain things are impossible.
freya
Before I recovered, "I can't" was one of the top 2 scariest things I could ever imagine saying...now, when those words come out of my mouth, my immediate second thought is: "...but God can."
When I -- or anyone else -- am with God and acting in accordance with His will for me at that moment, my own limitations are irrelevant. God, of course, has no limitations...other than insofaras I limit what He can do in my life by deciding certain things are impossible.
freya
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Originally Posted by freya
OK I am not trying to be a smart*ss here, but the whole reason that the 12 Steps exist is because I am incapable of getting sober.
Before I recovered, "I can't" was one of the top 2 scariest things I could ever imagine saying...now, when those words come out of my mouth, my immediate second thought is: "...but God can."
When I -- or anyone else -- am with God and acting in accordance with His will for me at that moment, my own limitations are irrelevant. God, of course, has no limitations...other than insofaras I limit what He can do in my life by deciding certain things are impossible.
freya
Before I recovered, "I can't" was one of the top 2 scariest things I could ever imagine saying...now, when those words come out of my mouth, my immediate second thought is: "...but God can."
When I -- or anyone else -- am with God and acting in accordance with His will for me at that moment, my own limitations are irrelevant. God, of course, has no limitations...other than insofaras I limit what He can do in my life by deciding certain things are impossible.
freya
Not about being sober.
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Originally Posted by AdarOne
I believe we were talking about "incapable of being honest..."
Not about being sober.
Not about being sober.
But the truth is, at least for me, that I am incapable of recovering whether or not I am capable of being honest or not...In fact, I'd have to say that, based on my own experience and on what I've seen with the women I sponsor, the inability to be honest is inseparable from the condition of untreated alcoholism/addiction. (Actually, I'd have to say that it is inseparable from self-will run riot regardless of how that self-will manifests, because, insofar as I am in self-will, I am by definition not being honest about my powerlessness or about the fact that I am not management material!)
Insofar as my disease is untreated, I am going to be incapable of being honest -- because justification, rationalization and denial (not to mention out-right lying when necessary and/or convenient and the inability to tell the true from the false i.e. to totally make sh*t up and to totally believe it) are part-and-parcel of the disease.
So, if God can remove the physical craving and He can remove the mental obsession (and, for me personally He's also removed some even deeper seated things), then why wouldn't He be able to remove the dishonesty?
Like I said earlier, I just find it very, very problematic when I start saying (or thinking or acting as if) 'God can't anything'...because, of course, He can, and it's not my place to be deciding what He will or won't do for any particular individual, regardless of that individual's character defects and where those character defects come from.
freya
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Location: torrance ca
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by freya
Right...and that's only important insofar as it is a potential dis-qualification for getting sober: If freya is constitutionally incapable of being honest with herself, she may be incapable of getting sober.
But the truth is, at least for me, that I am incapable of recovering whether or not I am capable of being honest or not...In fact, I'd have to say that, based on my own experience and on what I've seen with the women I sponsor, the inability to be honest is inseparable from the condition of untreated alcoholism/addiction. (Actually, I'd have to say that it is inseparable from self-will run riot regardless of how that self-will manifests, because, insofar as I am in self-will, I am by definition not being honest about my powerlessness or about the fact that I am not management material!)
Insofar as my disease is untreated, I am going to be incapable of being honest -- because justification, rationalization and denial (not to mention out-right lying when necessary and/or convenient and the inability to tell the true from the false i.e. to totally make sh*t up and to totally believe it) are part-and-parcel of the disease.
So, if God can remove the physical craving and He can remove the mental obsession (and, for me personally He's also removed some even deeper seated things), then why wouldn't He be able to remove the dishonesty?
Like I said earlier, I just find it very, very problematic when I start saying (or thinking or acting as if) 'God can't anything'...because, of course, He can, and it's not my place to be deciding what He will or won't do for any particular individual, regardless of that individual's character defects and where those character defects come from.
freya
But the truth is, at least for me, that I am incapable of recovering whether or not I am capable of being honest or not...In fact, I'd have to say that, based on my own experience and on what I've seen with the women I sponsor, the inability to be honest is inseparable from the condition of untreated alcoholism/addiction. (Actually, I'd have to say that it is inseparable from self-will run riot regardless of how that self-will manifests, because, insofar as I am in self-will, I am by definition not being honest about my powerlessness or about the fact that I am not management material!)
Insofar as my disease is untreated, I am going to be incapable of being honest -- because justification, rationalization and denial (not to mention out-right lying when necessary and/or convenient and the inability to tell the true from the false i.e. to totally make sh*t up and to totally believe it) are part-and-parcel of the disease.
So, if God can remove the physical craving and He can remove the mental obsession (and, for me personally He's also removed some even deeper seated things), then why wouldn't He be able to remove the dishonesty?
Like I said earlier, I just find it very, very problematic when I start saying (or thinking or acting as if) 'God can't anything'...because, of course, He can, and it's not my place to be deciding what He will or won't do for any particular individual, regardless of that individual's character defects and where those character defects come from.
freya
Sober since 10th April 2012
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 6,047
I knew 2 brothers who were alcoholics, and were warned they had 5% liver function left, and who died within a day of each other. Were they capable of being sober? Maybe in some circumstances, but they willingly went to their graves in full knowledge of the consequences of their drinking.
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