PhaseTwo

What makes me believe that AA is definitely religious is every time someone posts literature from it such as " AA promises" lady blue posted there is always something like step 12 that uses the word god. I only went to one meeting in which they did a couple prayers and used the word god several times. This is just my experience. Either way I think its safe to say these arguments are pointless. I have yet to see a religious person or atheist suddenly jump to the other side of the fence based upon a comment on this board

legna

Well said. I attend AA meetings and work the program. I attribute AA with saving my life. That said, I see where people find AA religious; I recognize that AA has been referred to as religious by legal entities. I acknowledge these because if I don't, then I am unable to help the alcoholic who is put off by what they perceive to be the religious component in AA.

Bill W. himself, in an article in the Grapevine (The Dilemma of No Faith) stated that while we have helped over 300,000 alcoholics (at the time) we may have had 500,000 or more come through our doors and out again because of religious pride.

I see the religious component that puts people off and yet I've seen past that to have my own spiritual awakening despite being an atheist. Seeing it, I discuss it. Discussing it is not bashing. Discussing different points of view and acknowledging that others point of view has merit is not, in my opinion, a big ego running amok.

AA has the ability to save lives. If we were to pick one thing, more than anything that prevents people that desperately need it from getting help from AA, it would probably be the perception that AA is religious. At the very least, that one perception would be in any discussion about the greatest reason AA is a bad fit for many.

And so, the perception needs to be changed. But as my sponsor told me when I first came in: If someone calls you a horses ass, you can tell them to kiss yours. If a dozen people tell you that you're a horse's ass, think about pricing saddles. Hundreds of thousands of alcoholics have came into and left the lifesaving power of the twelve steps and AA because of the perception it is religious. If our primary purpose remains unchanged, then it is my opinion that we should do something to change that perception.

Ohio1

I love any analogy that works in Jews and Christians lol. I would argue AA can be like a Jew joining a catholic parish if there was no other option around. I'd rather be a Jew hanging around with Catholics I don't totally agree with than pure atheists.

As for the point about PTSD regarding religion, that sounds a bit dramatic. Most of my friends hate religion, like really really hate it. I am not big on religion, I don't like it, but I also can easily ignore it if I feel like it and I certainly wouldn't let it stop me from using this program that is free, with no bosses, no leaders, no rules.

Kathleen41

I'm sad for lots of folks who don't understand, not just alcoholics!! Folks running around fretting about the future, trying to "run the show", oblivious to the hurt they cause others, etc.

This "program" is a way of life. It's not just a solution to alcoholism.

fraankie

you are so right
it took me ten years to finally commit to aathe higher power
what is that?
finally, i made the group my higher power
for a while
it was the dooriknob to the door to a meeting
and
powerless
no, alcohol made me superman, bulletproof, powerful
it wasn't until i changed my thinking
by going to meetings, meetings and more meetings,
service, the steps, using the telephone, spirituality, the big book, sponsor, helping others
did i realize i was powerless over alcohol
but
powerful enough to say no to john barleycorn

lots of good replies
thanks for posting

fraankie

RobbyRobot

With all respect, do what!?

My thinking is as long as the "God" word is being used in the 12 steps, perceptions will remain unchanged for the larger community. The descriptor God word is universally recognised and expected in common understandings of religion.

The twelve steps cannot be altered and still be authentic AA. There is no real work around for the wording of the steps - God is plainly embedded.

Does religious experience equate with spiritual experience? Not for me, but the vast majority of religious seekers freely equate their experiences as spiritual in nature and substance. For practical purposes most do not discriminate between the two experiences, is my opinion anyways.

You know, no matter how many people defined me as whatever, when it comes to matters of faith, the only definition which matters as a real responsibility in my life is my own. Interestingly enough, my being called a horse's ass by those who have not my experience or faith is not nearly enough to have me venture out to be fitted for a saddle anytime soon.

Fandy

Please don't be "sad" for me, because I REALLY don't want what you have.

I hope you find world peace.

I've been reading this thread for the last 2 days, it's enlightening.

wish the AA-ers the best, but it is not for me, all the dwelling makes me crazy.

FeenixxRising

I find AA to be a spiritual program with heavy religious overtones, especially Protestant Christianity.

At present I have no real problem with this, as I find I can just focus on the spiritual aspects and ignore the more Christian components of the program. However, the Christian influence on Steps 4 through 7 are hard to ignore. As Dr. James R. Milam wrote in his book Under the Influence, "The Christian formula of sin, repentance, and redemption can be clearly seen in A.A.'s Twelve Steps, especially Steps 4 through 7".

But again, this is a hurdle I believe I can overcome. BTW, in his book Dr. Milamis advocates the use of AA in recovery.

legna

Robby, that I think something needs to be done doesn't mean I think that I have the answers. Perhaps a group conscious at the world level would lead to discoveries of great idea's. However, if I had to come up with one suggestion, perhaps not ending a meeting with the Lord's Prayer. One more, perhaps? How about not reading out of the Bible at meetings. I mean, the Lord's prayer is kind of reading out of the Bible...it's just that people have it memorized so they don't actually have to crack the book.

And if you've never been to a meeting in which the Bible is cracked open and read out of, I'm going to guess that the majority of the meetings you've gone to have been in a limited number of geographical locations. There is no meeting in Stevens County, WA, for instance, that hasn't had the Bible pulled out and read from. I've been to meetings where the Bible is read from during meetings in Mississippi, Alabama, Oklahoma and others. Not getting crabby, just used to people who argue that religion is not in AA not having been to AA meetings where religion is that explicitly 'in' AA and simply heading off that argument.

It is plainly embedded, but I don't know that the wording of the twelve steps can't be changed and still be authentic AA. I do expect that there would be some huge challenges and discomfort around changing the word God to anything else - and I suspect it would mostly come from the folks who believe that atheists and agnostics are making too big a deal out of a word... which is kind of ironic.

I know that there was a great deal of backlash and discomfort when gender equality folks demanded that fireman be changed to firefighter or chairman to chairperson and yet society has emerged rather unscathed.

I like you Robby - and I wouldn't for a moment suggest that you need to be fit for a saddle, though it was a useful tool for me when I was given it. i.e. if everyone told me that I was an alcoholic...perhaps I was.

And I get it and agree, we have the same sentiments about people defining us....but my conversation isn't about me or you - it's about the new fellow, or new gal walking into AA and walking right back out again. Yeah, it's on them but maybe we have a responsibility too. That last line isn't just my opinion but Bill's as well in the aforementioned Grapevine article.

Kathleen41

You are always welcome here. However I'm curious as to why and others read and post on a 12 step alcoholism recovery area. Since you don't want what we have, and all the dwelling makes you crazy, why bother??

Dee74

Back when I was just member Dee I used to post on here cos I liked the discussions

I like sushi but I'm not Japanese

D

Kathleen41

Yea, I get that Dee, and I enjoy your sharing, AA member or not. But others are like, "I hate sushi and I'm not Japanese. I'm going to go to the sushi restaurant and read the menu and then complain about everything on it!"

And as I said, all are welcome and can state their opinion. Just bear in mind you all are on a 12 step alcoholism recovery area of this website. So when the people on it are posting pro AA thoughts, it shouldn't be surprising or controversial. And if people are strongly anti AA, maybe there are other areas of SR where they can find like minded people.

Ohio1

You could say the same about prison though too, or a pissed off wife

I rob a bank, I go to prison, I get let out. I haven't done step 4-7 yet but the truth is I don't really associate admitting the bad things I've done then reconciling with Christianity although obviously if someone was Christian they could use that as a bit of a template.

I really don't think its that hard to do AA sans religion- if I had to be a Christian to be in AA I wouldn't be in AA- I just have to do some translating at times.

awuh1

I could not agree more with Robbie here. People’s perceptions are their perceptions. Some cannot distinguish between the spiritual and the religious, nor do some even make an attempt. Hell, people cannot even agree with what is meant by religious (just scroll up). AA is a spiritual program and need make no apology for this.

AA is what it is. If people get a distorted idea of it due to insufficient investigation, and/or an unwillingness to try out the program (the steps), then so be it. There are lots of other methods to try. The door to AA is always open as long as there is a desire to stop drinking.

I wondered about those people who were not in AA posting here as well Kathleen41. What I have noticed is that the tenor of an individual’s postings (including the context in which they say it) speaks to the quality of their sobriety

RobbyRobot

Well thanks legna, I like you too.

I agree we do inherent a responsibility towards the newcomer and as well for those otherwise bewildered away from AA for whatever reasons from whatever levels of experience. Even as it might be obvious, I'm not really any fan of religion of any kind, including my own Christianity. Religion for me is just another word for politics, and yet, I of course realise the importance and essential requirement for both religion and politics in our civilized world.

I don't really buy into the justification given that religion is what sways people away from AA. Personally, I believe its more like actual responsibilities towards spiritualism is what really causes people to stumble with AA - and this they refer to as pertaining to religious circumstances and situations. As I already noted, differences exist between religious and spiritual experiences, for me anyways.

I think being a good example of sobriety for its own worth is more valuable and attractive then my supposing that how I achieved sobriety is the essential thing to be discussed. When I help others, the last thing I want to tell them is how I got sober because I already know sobriety is such a personal journey, and many of my trials, challenges, and achievements may not have commonality with others except in the broadest sense. I really believe in attraction rather then promotion hands down. I'd much rather give from what I now have with sobriety then explain or attempt to explain and justify how what works for me would work for them if only they would really, really try. I hated it when others told me I could be just like them. Yeah, I would think, I could be, but I won't be, because I'd rather be whatever I can be, even if it means failure in my attempts. Sooner or later I'll be successful in being who and what I am if I believe in myself. As it turned out, I am successful in being a sober me. The fact that I am sober from AA is purely circumstantial - ie I'm an alcoholic and they have an awesome solution for alcoholics who don't want to die drunk - otherwise I would have gotten sober some other way because it was my choice to not die drunk that got me sober. AA is simply how I chose to accomplish my sobriety.

So for me, the best we could do to be of help to those who leave AA because of religious/spiritual concerns and circumstances/situations is to be an example of being able to be of an open mind to all opinions and experiences including the veracity of those who absolutely believe that AA has no place in their lives. I have no problem with people who can become successfully sober without AA and do so after having had prior bad experiences with AA. Whatever works is the best choice hands down.

For those who cannot become sober in anyway of their choosing, I have nothing but empathy as I readily remember when I couldn't become sober either. I don't like taking sides in situations where personal choices have my earnest respect on all sides. There is no upside for me to yea one side and nay the others - I've experienced enough pain in my life to know ignorance and arrogance come into play when one chooses what is right for others based only on personal experiences. I can only anyways be an example for those with a open mind, and for those with a closed mind, nothing I can ever do will be valuable anyways, so why waste myself trying?

Sorry if I've rambled on - sometimes I say the same thing in different ways, lol.

Awesome enough thread, eh?!!

Dee74

Yep...welcome to the internet Kathleen

We mods will look out for rule breakers. You guys can help us by reporting those.

For disagreements of opinion that still fall within the rules we prefer a self regulatory thing wherever possible - especially in a forum like this where I assume you want to keep things open to encourage new folks to check out AA.

if other posters annoy you, I encourage use of the ignore function

D

DayTrader

That's such a true and great (and knowing you personally, I know it to be true) F'n post Mick, I don't know what to say about it other than - THANKS.

You DO get it....and it's wonderful to witness.

Ohio1

Robbie Robot presidential run in 2016? (I don't care that he's Canadian)

Great post though in all seriousness.

Gottalife

All this talk of religion and God based steps keeping people out of AA reminds me of my experience when I first came to AA. I was fortunate to find a sponsor who knew about the steps and that's the reason I am still sober today.

But back then, though I was unaware of it at the time, it seems the fellowship of AA was in the midst of a huge experiment. It seems to have been international in nature, but certainly happened in my home town.

Essentially the fellowship substantially reduced or removed references to God and the steps from the meetings. The Lords prayer was only said in one meeting out of about 60. People were told not to worry about the God bit, or the steps, just don't drink and come to meetings.

We had no Big Book studies and no steps meetings, in fact iany meetings did not even have a Big Book in the room. Probably the most dangerous thing that was commonly preached was that the steps were entirely optional and there was no rush. No need to worry too much about the spiritual side of the program. Our meetings were more like therapy sessions.

This didn't bother me much at the time. AA is what it is when you come in the door, I was unaware of the difference, but what was really happening was that we got away from the core principles, the steps and traditions that were proven to work, and started doing something else.

The result is today AA is smaller, has fewer members, in my home town than when I came in. On a worldwide basis, AA stopped growing and in fact went into decline in the same way. People stopped recovering.

More recently we have seen lots of litterature based meetings working much more closely along the path laid out by the founders. And people are getting and staying sober again and our numbers are on the increase.

The idea of modifying the program to minimize the God/spiritual angle is not new. The fellowship tried it, and failed miserably. It lost a lot of credibility in the process.

RobbyRobot

@Ohio LOL!

Hey, thanks. Ironically enough, my wife is American.