Sad for those who don't understand
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by legna 
No one needs to agree that AA is religious; everyone here can put forth the notion that AA is spiritual rather than religious if they like, but it seems that scoffing in contempt (and laughing at other peoples ideas qualifies) at the idea that many folks believe that it is, prior to investigation, is the pot calling the kettle black.
Yes, over the centuries, the courts have readily defined and redefined what is factual within human civilizations. Slavery comes to mind. And witch-burnings. And the Dark Ages. And the ... well, my point is made.
In simple terms, just because whatever is defined as whatever by whatever court simply means it is the legal understanding of the respective age being established, and nothing more. As times change, so do civilised appreciations of what is and is not established fact.
Not so many centuries ago the world was "legally" considered flat, lol.
AA is not a religious experience for me. How it can be for others I can easily and readily understand. Just because I understand doesn't mean I also agree that a legal definition trumps my spiritual understanding and experience of AA. I also know that I myself can invent a new religion at anytime that is totally without merit in any real sense of what it means to be human, but indeed could easily pass any legal definition. Religion is just one of those things that is always in flux when being defined and re-defined by so many individuals. Billions of people can't be legislated into reality - reality is whatever billions of people make it out to be in real time- and legislation is always catching up on what already is established in practice. The world is still a big place, and religion will not easily have a simplistic one-size-fits-all definition any time soon is my thinking anyways.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
AA is not a religious experience for me. How it can be for others I can easily and readily understand. Just because I understand doesn't mean I also agree that a legal definition trumps my spiritual understanding and experience of AA. I also know that I myself can invent a new religion at anytime that is totally without merit in any real sense of what it means to be human, but indeed could easily pass any legal definition. Religion is just one of those things that is always in flux when being defined and re-defined by so many individuals.
I always enjoy your posts.
Mini Novel Post Writer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,649
Great posts!
In finality I would like to say that everyone has a right to hold near and dear to their hearts whatever they did in order to get and to remain sober.
This program did it for me so obviously it's close to me.
I did profess previously too that politics and religion are tough cookies for discussion. Choice of sobriety program can be added to that circle!
I love this board. We can debate a point but still maintain respect and also respectfully agree to disagree.
In finality I would like to say that everyone has a right to hold near and dear to their hearts whatever they did in order to get and to remain sober.
This program did it for me so obviously it's close to me.
I did profess previously too that politics and religion are tough cookies for discussion. Choice of sobriety program can be added to that circle!
I love this board. We can debate a point but still maintain respect and also respectfully agree to disagree.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
... I also know that I myself can invent a new religion at anytime that is totally without merit in any real sense of what it means to be human, but indeed could easily pass any legal definition. Religion is just one of those things that is always in flux when being defined and re-defined by so many individuals.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by LadyBlue0527
How many times have we read the words "I'm not doing AA because I'm not religious" or "I refuse to say that I'm powerless".
If they could only see that AA is far more than a program to achieve sobriety. For me, realizing that goodness and accountability remains on this earth and that it starts with me has restored my faith in humanity and in myself. The perk is I get to get sober at the same time.
If they could only see that AA is far more than a program to achieve sobriety. For me, realizing that goodness and accountability remains on this earth and that it starts with me has restored my faith in humanity and in myself. The perk is I get to get sober at the same time.
First I had a court order to not drink, which worked for all of 5 minutes. It seems the court could not impose sobriety.
Then I was ordered to attend counselling, about which I was cooperative, but the counsellor failed to fix me.
Then I went into the local mental hospital and was again cooperative. I had the idea that most people went to hospital and came out cured.
Had first contact with AA and rejected it as religious. Did what Rowland Hazard did, left the hospital thinking I was fixed, and was drunk shortly after.
Next came sheltered accomodation, if you drink you are out,: I was out in a few days. Next came the parks and all that back to nature living that some of us alcies like so much. 22 and sleeping in the park?
A mistake that a lot of folks make about AA is that it is just another option like the others. If I go there they will fix me, or teach me how to fix myself. Folks of this belief are always sponsored, never sponsoring.
AA is not a self help program. If anything it has taught me how to help others, and in putting that into practice my life has been rocketed beyond my wildest dreams.
I came to AA defeated, useless and full of self pity. But today I am of use, I have been given the power to help others, my life has meaning and purpose. I go to AA to help others, and in doing this, have recieved all the help I need.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Gottalife
A mistake that a lot of folks make about AA is that it is just another option like the others. If I go there they will fix me, or teach me how to fix myself. Folks of this belief are always sponsored, never sponsoring.
AA is not a self help program. If anything it has taught me how to help others, and in putting that into practice my life has been rocketed beyond my wildest dreams.
Spot on. Anyone who thinks AA needs to please them first or live up to their standards in any way is setting themselves up for failure."All expectations are seeds for resentment".
(Chaung Tzu)
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Melbourne Australia.
Posts: 3,748
Originally Posted by foolsgold66
Still funny, Confucius Boleo. While I'm enjoying the little trap you're laying, I have read the Big Book, and know that there are a few circular passages about finding said power within.
Please don't imply that you know the level of dedication I had to getting said program to work for me. Mentally it put me back on a kneeler in fourth grade and despite my efforts I could never overcome that feeling.
Please don't imply that you know the level of dedication I had to getting said program to work for me. Mentally it put me back on a kneeler in fourth grade and despite my efforts I could never overcome that feeling.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Murchovski
I understand a higher cosmic power as a force transcending limited secular reasoning; something eventually felt rather than quantified......
Your post makes absolutely no sense to me. Keep up the good work.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Huntington Woods, Michigan
Posts: 465
Originally Posted by Boleo
Spot on. Anyone who thinks AA needs to please them first or live up to their standards in any way is setting themselves up for failure."All expectations are seeds for resentment".
(Chaung Tzu)
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by Boleo
Murch
Your post makes absolutely no sense to me. Keep up the good work.
Your post makes absolutely no sense to me. Keep up the good work.
took me some hard knocks to get the pedestal knocked out from under me and start lookin across at people instead of down on them.
live and let live.
Our actor is self-centered - ego-centric, as people like to call it nowadays. He is like the retired business man who lolls in the Florida sunshine in the winter complaining of the sad state of the nation; the minister who sighs over the sins of the twentieth century; politicians and reformers who are sure all would be Utopia if the rest of the world would only behave; the outlaw safe cracker who thinks society has wronged him; and the alcoholic who has lost all and is locked up. Whatever our protestations, are not most of us concerned with ourselves, our resentments, or our self-pity.
the PM's ya sent me and yer posts remind me length without a drink doesn't determine mental and emotional sobriety.
Mini Novel Post Writer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,649
Something very powerful happened last night in my AA meeting. I chose yesterday to post this thread because I truly wish that those who haven't done the research who balk at AA because of the surface premise of the program knew what it really is all about. The replies have been insightful and some really great comments have been made.
Two things occurred last night at the meeting that were strange. I don't think I have heard my higher power come through more magnificently.
With that being said, before the meeting facilitator handed it over to the speaker for the evening she stated that she had thought about it that day and she wanted to read something before she did that. Typically this doesn't occur, the meeting goes right to the speaker. It was something that I have not yet read in the Big Book. It was The Promises. She finished and I was floored. Almost moved to tears.
Is this not exactly what I was referring to yesterday? Every single one of those is coming true. I can't stress enough that what led me to start this thread was because I was trying to express #1.
Last week the person reading "how it works", when reading the phrase "There are those, too, that suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders" raised his hand and looked around the room when he read it. My daughter, who attends with me, was questioning me as to why he did that. She thought it was bit off. I told her that she had to look further into that he was trying to state that no one is exempt from that statement and he'd be the first to admit it. Our discussion of it was left at that.
Last night after the speaker finished and it was opened up to the floor. The man who had read "How it Works" the prior week raised his hand. He then proceeded to explain why he had raised his hand the previous week when he had read the portion. My daughter and I looked at each other in disbelief.
Random occurrences? I think not.
There was also a third thing that occurred that's a little too personal to post so I'm not counting it.
It was all very moving and powerful. Again, you have to chose your own program and do what works for you but I can't begin to describe how much better my life is and I can't be more thankful for AA.
Two things occurred last night at the meeting that were strange. I don't think I have heard my higher power come through more magnificently.
With that being said, before the meeting facilitator handed it over to the speaker for the evening she stated that she had thought about it that day and she wanted to read something before she did that. Typically this doesn't occur, the meeting goes right to the speaker. It was something that I have not yet read in the Big Book. It was The Promises. She finished and I was floored. Almost moved to tears.
The AA Promises
1. If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed
before we are half way through.
2. We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness.
3. We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it.
4. We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace.
5. No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience
can benefit others.
6. That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear.
7. We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows.
8. Self-seeking will slip away.
9. Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change.
10. Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us.
11. We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us.
12. We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for
ourselves
1. If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed
before we are half way through.
2. We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness.
3. We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it.
4. We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace.
5. No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience
can benefit others.
6. That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear.
7. We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows.
8. Self-seeking will slip away.
9. Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change.
10. Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us.
11. We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us.
12. We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for
ourselves
Last week the person reading "how it works", when reading the phrase "There are those, too, that suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders" raised his hand and looked around the room when he read it. My daughter, who attends with me, was questioning me as to why he did that. She thought it was bit off. I told her that she had to look further into that he was trying to state that no one is exempt from that statement and he'd be the first to admit it. Our discussion of it was left at that.
Last night after the speaker finished and it was opened up to the floor. The man who had read "How it Works" the prior week raised his hand. He then proceeded to explain why he had raised his hand the previous week when he had read the portion. My daughter and I looked at each other in disbelief.
Random occurrences? I think not.
There was also a third thing that occurred that's a little too personal to post so I'm not counting it.
It was all very moving and powerful. Again, you have to chose your own program and do what works for you but I can't begin to describe how much better my life is and I can't be more thankful for AA.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by LadyBlue0527
The AA Promises
1. If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed
before we are half way through.
2. We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness.
3. We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it.
4. We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace.
5. No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience
can benefit others.
6. That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear.
7. We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows.
8. Self-seeking will slip away.
9. Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change.
10. Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us.
11. We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us.
12. We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for
ourselves
1. If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed
before we are half way through.
2. We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness.
3. We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it.
4. We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace.
5. No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience
can benefit others.
6. That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear.
7. We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows.
8. Self-seeking will slip away.
9. Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change.
10. Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us.
11. We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us.
12. We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for
ourselves
Is this not exactly what I was referring to yesterday? Every single one of those is coming true. I can't stress enough that what led me to start this thread was because I was trying to express #1.
Last week the person reading "how it works", when reading the phrase "There are those, too, that suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders" raised his hand and looked around the room when he read it.
It was all very moving and powerful. Again, you have to chose your own program and do what works for you but I can't begin to describe how much better my life is and I can't be more thankful for AA.
Those promises really did eventually all come to be true and real in my day to day life. And as well, I am also one who came to AA with a grave diagnosed mental disorder (chronic undifferentiated schizophrenia). Those promises manifested in my life now these many years are a direct result of spiritually arresting my alcoholism illness, followed with the changing out of my alcoholic mind for and with a complete renewal of my entire psyche. Wow.
There really are not enough words to say enough about my gratitude for how those promises are abundant in my life. They didn't come easy, and they didn't come without responsibilities, and they don't stay if I don't make use of them either. Spiritual experiences are nothing if not experienced daily.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Chicago Burbs- Illinois
Posts: 202
Its amazing to me that people will forgo freely available support from people who suffer like them because there are religious sounding concepts discussed in AA. Who cares? No one can make you do anything, AA is what it is, the support is there, there is nowhere else you will find a network of people like you will at AA.
I think the biggest issue is that AA bashers seem to have some serious ego problems- that is what is truly dangerous to them.
I think the biggest issue is that AA bashers seem to have some serious ego problems- that is what is truly dangerous to them.
Grateful to be free
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by Ohio1
Its amazing to me that people will forgo freely available support from people who suffer like them because there are religious sounding concepts discussed in AA. Who cares? No one can make you do anything, AA is what it is, the support is there, there is nowhere else you will find a network of people like you will at AA.
I think the biggest issue is that AA bashers seem to have some serious ego problems- that is what is truly dangerous to them.
I think the biggest issue is that AA bashers seem to have some serious ego problems- that is what is truly dangerous to them.
I have taken advantage of AA, and have no beef with it but there are a few things here I would like to comment on.
Some people have PSTD concerning religion and things that appear to THEM to be religious and it sets off bells, whistles and triggers of anxiety, rage and panic. They are not merely acting thus to be contrary or iinsulting.
The people in AA may well be wonderful and amazing, but AA does not have a monopoly on wonderful people or wonderful network, not even when it comes to alcoholism. I posit SR as an example of a similarly wonderful network of people surrounding recovery.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
I think it is important to distinguish those who forgo AA and those who bash it.
I do think you are right that the bashers tend to be people with ego problems. But for those of us who forgo it without bashing, it is a matter of conscience. If honesty is part of your recovery, it is wrong to profess beliefs that you do not actually hold. I learned a lot from AA and respect the literature--enough to keep me plugging away in the program for many years. But for me honesty became more important than "getting along" in a group.
And frankly it felt disrespectful to AA to take part but not really subscribe to the program.
What is the point of being in AA if you cannot do the steps? Certainly, no one will make you do them (as you state), but it is kind of like a Jew joining a Catholic parish. Sure they CAN do it and no one will force them to do anything--but would a Jew be able to form a network of people who support their faith within a Catholic parish? Would a person who does not believe in higher powers really find support in an organization that has such a belief as its foundation?
I do think you are right that the bashers tend to be people with ego problems. But for those of us who forgo it without bashing, it is a matter of conscience. If honesty is part of your recovery, it is wrong to profess beliefs that you do not actually hold. I learned a lot from AA and respect the literature--enough to keep me plugging away in the program for many years. But for me honesty became more important than "getting along" in a group.
And frankly it felt disrespectful to AA to take part but not really subscribe to the program.
What is the point of being in AA if you cannot do the steps? Certainly, no one will make you do them (as you state), but it is kind of like a Jew joining a Catholic parish. Sure they CAN do it and no one will force them to do anything--but would a Jew be able to form a network of people who support their faith within a Catholic parish? Would a person who does not believe in higher powers really find support in an organization that has such a belief as its foundation?
Mini Novel Post Writer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,649
Originally Posted by FormerBeerLover
Why does there have to be big, profound "reason"??? Believe it or not, there are some of us that aren't in AA simply because we found another solution to our problem.
The fact that we didn't pick up a drink today is a good thing no matter the path taken.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 821
Originally Posted by FormerBeerLover
Why does there have to be big, profound "reason"??? Believe it or not, there are some of us that aren't in AA simply because we found another solution to our problem.
I respect AA for what it is. I spent years trying to "work the program". Then one day I quit drinking. That worked. I have attended 3 meetings in the last 6 months or so and I don't mind the fellowship idea but, I don't want to be in AA. That's it.
Really its simple. I don't bash AA or dislike it. I just choose not to involve myself with AA. Not everyone wants what AA has.
However, to the OP I am really glad it is working for you.
Fellow Traveler and Seeker
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,408
Originally Posted by miamifella
I think it is important to distinguish those who forgo AA and those who bash it.
I do think you are right that the bashers tend to be people with ego problems. But for those of us who forgo it without bashing, it is a matter of conscience. If honesty is part of your recovery, it is wrong to profess beliefs that you do not actually hold. I learned a lot from AA and respect the literature--enough to keep me plugging away in the program for many years. But for me honesty became more important than "getting along" in a group.
And frankly it felt disrespectful to AA to take part but not really subscribe to the program.
What is the point of being in AA if you cannot do the steps? Certainly, no one will make you do them (as you state), but it is kind of like a Jew joining a Catholic parish. Sure they CAN do it and no one will force them to do anything--but would a Jew be able to form a network of people who support their faith within a Catholic parish? Would a person who does not believe in higher powers really find support in an organization that has such a belief as its foundation?
I do think you are right that the bashers tend to be people with ego problems. But for those of us who forgo it without bashing, it is a matter of conscience. If honesty is part of your recovery, it is wrong to profess beliefs that you do not actually hold. I learned a lot from AA and respect the literature--enough to keep me plugging away in the program for many years. But for me honesty became more important than "getting along" in a group.
And frankly it felt disrespectful to AA to take part but not really subscribe to the program.
What is the point of being in AA if you cannot do the steps? Certainly, no one will make you do them (as you state), but it is kind of like a Jew joining a Catholic parish. Sure they CAN do it and no one will force them to do anything--but would a Jew be able to form a network of people who support their faith within a Catholic parish? Would a person who does not believe in higher powers really find support in an organization that has such a belief as its foundation?
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