Step two folks...

[Dan]

Any ESH you can send my way on this one? Early struggles here. Totally expected though. Pencil sharpener working overtime. My sponsor smiles a lot when we talk about this step and how I'm approaching it. O.K people...
Tape recorder's on. Thanks,
DD

[Music]

Hey Dan,
Same experience here. Didn't have too much going on with any kind of an HP when I came to AA. I was my HP and I didn't have a whole lot going on there either.
I read and re-read "We Agnostics" in the Big Book. I learned that even if I had a desire to consider the possibility that there was something out there more powerful than I was, that I was well on my way to success. It became very apparent to me that if when I looked the mirror and actually believed there was nothing more powerful than what I was looking at, I had more of a problem than I thought I had.
My belief to day is that there is a Higher Power and it ain't me. I call it God for simplicity. My HP isn't a Religious, idiological God, God just is. That's as simple as I can make it and I'm satisfied with that.
Works for me.

[Mogqua]

In my experience with this step:

Step two is not about a “Higher Power�. It is about a “power greater�.

On step one, you admitted to a problem that you couldn’t solve by yourself. So here you are putting yourself out to others in hopes to find insight. You are looking out to look in. Two heads are better than one. That would be a power greater than one or “yourself�. A group to share with adds to this “power greater than you� and helps to reaffirm trust in your sponsor and your desire to change. Every action you have stated says that you have taken this step. So it’s not an approach needed here but a reflection on how you can confirm it and voice it to your sponsor. You will know how important this is when you take someone through his or her steps.

A power greater than you can be considered your sponsor, your group, the process, other sources and venues such as these.

Developing your concept of a “higher power� is the next step.

"Being convinced" is what puts you on step three.

[Music]

Ok! A power greater than myself. Not a "Higher Power." You win!! Only problem is that my choice of a "power greater than myself" had to be something other than human. Why? Because humans are fallible, finite. Not perfect.

"A power greater than you can be considered your sponsor, your group, the process, other sources and venues such as these."???

I don't think so. What do I do when my "power greater than me" goes back out and gets drunk?

My "Higher Power" had to be perfect....infallible, infinite.

"Being convinced" of what??

[Alice Wonder]

Dangerous- I am not a christian. My religion is Pagan Swinger (hehe)
but my practice is Buddhism. All the HP stuff is what originally put me off AA/NA and I have had discussions with several people working the steps who were also put off. I have found that people who never liked church or organized religion are usually afraid they are going to hear a sermon at meetings. if you are really down... you don't want to be bombarded by anyones religious philosophy... it's too much even when sober. I hope i am not offending anyone here but this is how i felt and i have encountered it quite a bit in talking to others. It has been a major stumbling block when i have encouraged friends who have problems with alcohol to come to a meeting with me. it is a great excuse for them to use. I used it too! I always associated AA/NA with christian religion. That was before going to a meeting.
i think the struggle is that first you are trying to stay sober!! and then you are expected to figure out a concept that seems to elude everyone... even if they practice a specific religion. Figuring out what we really believe and what resonates for us is a major undertaking. so what i did was baby steps. i started with one idea and kept in mind that i would change it if i found something more suitable. kind of a personal steps program for finding a HP. doing it this way took a lot of the pressure off.
Eastern religion is vastly different from Western religion in concept so I have chosen LOVE as my HP to get started. I figure as I learn more my HP can be mutable like so much in this universe. Why does a HP have to be finite? who are we to think we can grasp it in totality? i think we all hold pieces of the puzzle in our hearts and when we come together through love we create a power far greater than anything. i don't know if i have been helpful but i hope i have- alice

[MootPoint]

anything had power over me by the time i started AA. And I believed that i couldn't get any more insane. So I believed that following any GOOD direction could restore me to some form of sanity. Still believe that

[Mogqua]

Music:
It was not my intention to cause you such resentment or to turn this into a debate. There is no competition here so I believe that no one 'wins'. What I offered here was a mere contribution and participation in a thread I have worked extensively with others (and therefore myself also).

"To be helpful was my only aim."

To support my previous post I offer this:

"Listen, if you will, to these three statements. First, Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe anything. All of its Twelve Steps are but suggestions. Second, to get sober and to stay sober, you don't have to swallow all of Step Two right now. Looking back, I find that I took it piecemeal myself. Third, all you really need is a truly open mind. Just resign from the debating society and quit bothering yourself with such deep questions as whether it was the hen or the egg that came first. Again I say, all you need is the open mind."
(page 26 ~ 12x12)
--------------------
"This is only one man's opinion based on his own experience, of course. I must quickly assure you that A.A.'s tread innumerable paths in their quest for faith. If you don't care for the one I've suggested, you'll be sure to discover one that suits if only you look and listen. Many a man like you has begun to solve the problem by the method of substitution. You can, if you wish, make A.A., itself your 'higher power.' Here's a very large group of people who have solved their alcohol problem. In this respect they are certainly a power greater than you, who have not even come close to a solution. Surely you can have faith in them. Even this minimum of faith will be enough. You will find many members who have crossed the threshold just this way. All of them will tell you that, once across, their faith broadened
and deepened."
(page 27/28 ~ 12x12)
------------------------
"Therefore, Step Two is the rallying point for all of us. Whether agnostic, atheist, or former believer, we can stand together on this Step."
(page 33 ~ 12x12)
--------------------
Being convinced, we were at Step Three...
(page 60 ~ "Big Book")
___________________
I agree with the books.
In love and service...

[ted]

RIGHT NOW FOR ME I'M USING (GOD) GOOD ORDERLY DIRECTION!I HEARD THAT AND IT MAKES SENSE TO ME.I DO PRAY ALOT,JUST WAITING FOR ANSWERS.LEARNING TO ACCEPT THE ANSWER,WHEN I GET IT,THAT'S TAKING TIME.RIGHT NOW ALL I HAVE IS TIME. STAY STRONG BUDDY! ted :band

[collinsmi]

What instructions did your sponsor give you Dan; what are the directions for your 2nd step writing? What specifically are you having trouble with?

I had to do a lot of writing for my steps, and it was like pulling an eyetooth! I used to think it was just difficult, and that was true to an extent. But most of it was my mind convincing me that it was difficult, so I'd have an excuse to screw off instead of working (it's happening to me as I write this for a small college homework assignment).

Step work has the advantage that pain will drive you to the pencil (if you've made the gut level connection that doing this makes your life easier)!!!!

[Dan]

Thanks for the question collinsmi. After we decided to move on to Step Two, we talked about the spiritual progress that had occured in my life during Step One. He then asked me to write about and identify things that are "not" a power greater than myself. Having done that and come to terms that I am approaching this step as an agnostic, he then asked me to write about the things I am willing to do to be restored to sanity. At this point, it is becoming evident to me that I may be able to identify HP only in a state of spiritual fitness, given that I believe in the spirituality of my species and that in it lies the hope of my blue planet. So I write on, knowing this simple exercise of putting thought to paper brings me ever closer to sanity, regardless. Hope this clears things up a bit.

Alice, I want to hear more about the Pagan Swinger thing! I'm still reading and digesting your post as well as Music's and Mogqua's. Thanks for the response. And if Jeff C doesn't get here soon, I guess I'll have to call him!
Is there a secular version of Step Two...!
DD

[collinsmi]

Sounds like a good plan Dan! I had to drop a few (all) of my old ideas about God also. My sponsor gave me an exercise to see what they were. But basically, I stopped looking at God as running some kind of spiritual protection racket, and started to look at him/her as a loving father/mother. That really helped with my willingness to believe. But, whatever you find works for you..... One sentence from my exercise that I had to turn into a question about me (who could comprehend a supreme being anyhow) sounds like it fits us both! I try to keep the idea as simple as possible, and worry about the action part of it.

[Dan]

I'm liking a lot what I just read in an NA step working guide. It affirms that I am looking not for a power to believe "in", but rather "a" power that will restore me to sanity. Inasmuch as I believe I have free will, I think I have just reconciled for myself a few things. A moment of clarity perhaps...

DD

[collinsmi]

There you go Dan! Sounds like something right off of page 45 of the big book: "lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this power? Well, that's exactly what this book. It's main object is to enable you to find a power greater than yourself which will solve your problem".

It reminds me of the 3rd step too. While my sponsor and I said a little prayer together, he also said the step represented a commitment to do the rest of the steps.

[Digits101010]

Dan- Hi!!

I'm on step 2 right now with another meeting I am in and things like..."When I am sick" a doctor can restore me to health or at least I come to believe that she can. Then I step 3 and, "Make that decision" to take the medicine she dispenses"... Or I can step 2 and "Come to believe that a power greater than myself" can fix my plumbing problems and then the plumber comes out because I have "Made a decision to turn my pipes over to the care of him."

For me, because steps 2 and 3 are only after 1, it gets me to see that I am not my own alpha-omega. That I need help in many aspects of my life. It's not a sign of weakness, like the BB suggests, but rather a source of strength so we can go about our lives with the things we *can* control or have power in.

In my step 1 with this new group I was able to list things I had no power over and then alongside that, things I do have power over. It's amazing how much power I do have and that, to me, is where my free will comes into play. I will be quick to add that this newfound power I do have was not recognized when I was drinking. For example: I have the power to extend my hand to anyone in need of my help. [I wasn't able to do that before but really, it's a tremendous gift and is an act of power within.]

When I drank/was drinking/at the depths of my illness, I realized I had no power - NONE - in ANY area of my life. But by this point, it was so unmanageable and I had NONE of the power I had today, much less was I still able to control the things even today I cannot control. When I'd arrived at step 2 I was so desperate for help I made AA my higher power...made my sponsor my higher power...anyone who looked as if they had a modicum of anything going on that resembled joy and release from the bondage of alcohol, they were my higher power...and I threw myself into their hip pocket. Eventually, and it was my process, I found God/Spirit THROUGH these people. I was probably on step 7 when I had found a Spirit Concious of my own....which on Pg 45 of the Big Book says that is what the book is about.

A book I like that I've been bringing up at my meetings is "Came to Believe" and I like it alot....it's AA Approved and it's personal accounts of people coming to believe.

Digits

[Dan]

Thanks Digits,

I find myself this morning in a state of readiness. Much reading and much writing has helped me isolate my concerns and view them for what thet are. Simply concerns. I believe that a gut level spiritual belief is my path in this step. Because I have accepted that I have no power to "control" addiction, I also accept that a power unseen has brought me to sanity and recovery.

Leaving behind the pragmatic, ever questionning me to allow for once in my life the simple beauty of faith and desire.

DD

[Jeff_C]

I’ve yet to find a “belief system� which the 12 steps is at odds with. Anyone is as valid as is another, and none of them preclude an effective working of the steps. Generally in walking through them with another person, (for me) it’s crucial that they are able to enunciate to some degree what their vision of that Higher Power is, AND how it constitutes being their Higher Power. It’s also of more than passing interest that they have the ability to describe in some detail precisely in what way that force is afoot in this world, be it “the group�, or some personal and iconoclastic vision, that is more exclusive than inclusive.

The point being, that if it “works� for them, it can work within the frame work of the steps. Since it is the stated aim of the Big Book to bring us into a fuller understanding of that relationship, there probably should be an awareness that such “understanding “ will itself mutate the perception of BOTH entities. Rarely if ever is that the case, and most often in the rigidity of early recovery we’re desperately holding onto what we believe are fixed values, and immoveable ideas. Translated, I guess that means we are desperately afraid of becoming that “hole in the donut�.

My sponsor led me gently down the path that I myself pointed to, and also would equally point out the inconsistencies that my life made of that relationship. Years later, I continue to do the same thing with guys that I work with, and it rarely fails----------if we’ve gotten to that state of “readiness� that you describe. The “funny� thing is, that as I grew, so did my Higher Power, now bearing little resemblance to what I presented with when I began this journey, Go figure eh.
Jeff

[Dan]

Thanks Jeff. I knew you'd get here sooner or later. I enjoyed your airplane story in another thread. You reaffirm in your post what I've come to believe these last few days. That my higher power need not be static and immovable, but rather fluid and adaptive, if that makes sense and if I'm reading you correctly. My sponsor believes this to be necessary and I tend to share his view. He told me this morning after reviewing my step work that he thinks it's my call to move on. I am surprised at this since he held me for about a month of extra writing and f2f when I so wanted to leave Step one to arrive at the second. Well I'm not gonna question it. Like I said in my previous post, I'm allowing myself "the simple beauty" to take over and believe my path is true. Thanks Jeff C.

Dan L.