AA Alcoholism Illness Solutions

[RobbyRobot]

Hey.

I'm hoping we can have a discussion about what does it mean for us when we say our alcoholism illness has been or otherwise is spiritually arrested, in remission, sleeping, behind us, treated, non-active, etc... you get the idea... living the real solution.

I'd like to hear from experienced members, and some of my reason is altogether selfish. I'm feeling really good about my AA sobriety, and I'm a bit beside myself for my attitude towards those who say they are recovered, and yet they talk about having obvious alcoholic struggles in real time... as if they were back with their alcoholism in their face for whatever reason.

Alcoholism is or isn't active... can't be both in the same moment.

This thread is in this 12 Step forum for a specifc purpose: lets not pretend or be all politically correct, okay?

Let's call a spade a spade, yeah?

Who wants to play?

[tomsteve]

well, thats a good one, robby, and one i can still struggle with. that principles before personalities can really be a bugger for me.

i am an alcoholic as the BB describes. i believe what the BB says. i have recovered from the hopeless state of mind that made me drink. however, i am not cured. i only have a daily repreieve contigent on the maintenence of my spiritual condition.alcoholism is cunning, baffling,powerful, patient, and deadly.

what happened to me seems to work sometimes for others:
if i hear something that is contradictory to what the BB says, i go up to the person after the meeting and say something to the effect," i was listening to what you said about(fill in the blank) but i just cant seem to recall where it says in the BB that is the case. can you help me find it?"

i dont have a drinkin problem today, but i still have a thinkin problem.

[Mark75]

I felt that I was "recovered" when I felt like nothing was missing.

Simple answer... but that, for me has been profound.

It can be as simple as being on a camping trip with family, or after skiing all day with my long time friends, and not feeling left out, or uncomfortable because I am not drinking.

Or it can be as profound as not feeling like I am at the edge of an abyss of uncertainty, confusion and isolation.

Or as tangible as reaching past my young adult son's case of Miller in the garage refrigerator and feeling nothing but mild annoyance because he pushed my diet Coke's to the back and I had reach waaayyyyy back for one, jeez, LOLOL



No struggles here, It took some time, hard work and a lot of soul searching, but I freakin' made it... AWESOME!!

[RobbyRobot]

Originally Posted by tomsteve

well, thats a good one, robby, and one i can still struggle with. that principles before personalities can really be a bugger for me.

i am an alcoholic as the BB describes.

i dont have a drinkin problem today, but i still have a thinkin problem.

I hear you, thanks Tom.

Ok, but do you still have an alcoholic thinking problem? Do you think with an alcoholic mind?

[RobbyRobot]

Originally Posted by Mark75

I felt that I was "recovered" when I felt like nothing was missing.

Simple answer... but that, for me has been profound.

No struggles here, It took some time, hard work and a lot of soul searching, but I freakin' made it... AWESOME!!

Yeah, totally awesome, heh heh.

No alcoholic struggles, right? Just ordinary person struggles having nothing to do with alcoholism, yeah?

[tomsteve]

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot

I hear you, thanks Tom.

Ok, but do you still have an alcoholic thinking problem? Do you think with an alcoholic mind?

welp, if thinking with an alcoholic mind means thinkin like i did when i was drinkin, somewhat. but not as bad and not as often. as time has gone on and i put in the footwork on my thinking, it keeps gettin better.

[Mark75]

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot

Just ordinary person struggles having nothing to do with alcoholism, yeah?

Yeah...

Sure, I still struggle with all that living a life on the planet stuff... And all that being a human being stuff... Pride, self will, sure... But now I can deal with it sans substances, just like everyone else.

[bbthumper]

I believe whole heartedly that I am recovered. That my alcoholism is in remission. I feel that I have been placed in a position of neutrality.

I had a wet drunk in my car a week ago. Had to get him a drink to prevent dts. My heart broke for this guy. Went to bed more concerned for him than I was for myself.

Something occurred to me about 3 years in that really hit home. When faced with difficulties, although my human nature still causes me to worry, become angry etc, I have developed a habit of seeking a spiritual solution first rather than exhausting all other options before turning to God.

Today and for the last few years I have been reasonably happy with my life. That is a long way off from where I was years ago.

These are examples of one major event. A complete change in the way I act and think. In the way I WANT to act and think. In the way I respond to life. A spiritual awakening.

[RobbyRobot]

Originally Posted by tomsteve

welp, if thinking with an alcoholic mind means thinkin like i did when i was drinkin, somewhat. but not as bad and not as often. as time has gone on and i put in the footwork on my thinking, it keeps gettin better.

Okay.

For me, when i was thinking with my alcoholic mind, I didn't have shades of grey, you know? I either had an alcoholic mind, or I didn't... half-measures don't work kinda of thing, for me, you know.

I had zero shame back when admitting I still used an alcoholic mind because it was never my fault in the first place. How do we spell illness?!

I freely and often brought into the light just how alcoholic my mind operated, even without alcohol, lol, of course, as we know alcoholism does not need alcohol to flourish, yeah?

The Truth has always set us free, we can depend on all that, and with our use of rigorous honesty, we are unstoppable... we do get sober.

So, a spade is a spade...

[Music]

It's been told to me that one of Bill Wilson's last wishes, lying on his death bed was for one more drink. This info came from a woman who was best friends with Lois. So, take it for what it's worth.

Say it's true. Then, as the Big Book describes, I am recovered from the seemingly hopeless state that caused me to drink. However, the reason I still go to meetings after over 35 years in AA is because I don't know if there's still something ahead of me that would make me think it's a good idea to take a drink. I'm suspicious of anyone who says they're in tune with God every minute of every day. I'm equally suspicious of anyone who says their sobriety has never been effected by life stuff that makes them crazy every so often. If I read page 100...101 in the Big Book where it talks about the Eskimo and the bottle of scotch, it also says that a person who thinks like that still has an alcoholic mind. I don't fit that discription. I'm not afraid to go anywhere, anytime if I have a good reason. Just two days ago an old friend of mine whom I hadn't seen in about 5 years told me about his sponor of 36 years sobriety, watching TV and drinking no-alcohol beer. Personally, I wouldn't give you a dime for that guys state of mind. My friend asked my opinion and I told him "if you hang around a ***** house long enough, you're going to get laid." Why would an alcoholic even want to taste the stuff that turned his life upside down? Not to mention, (no-alcohol) beer is not entirely alcohol free!

When someone asks me how long I've been sober, I tell them I haven't had a drink in over 35 years with a little bit of sobriety sprinkled in just for good measure. Being sober is not only being free of being drunk, it's being of sound, healthy mind and I don't know about any of you all, I get nuts sometimes just from life stuff. However, as of right now, I haven't found it necessary to drink over any of it.

[RobbyRobot]

Originally Posted by bbthumper

I believe whole heartedly that I am recovered. That my alcoholism is in remission. I feel that I have been placed in a position of neutrality.


Something occurred to me about 3 years in that really hit home. When faced with difficulties, although my human nature still causes me to worry, become angry etc, I have developed a habit of seeking a spiritual solution first rather than exhausting all other options before turning to God.

Yeah. You got it going on. Nothing alcoholic-minded in your response, and you take responsibility for being human day in and day out. Awesome.

Neutrality.
Remission.
Recovered.
Spiritual solution.
Human nature.

[keithj]

I don't want to derail the thread into the 'recovering vs. recovered' debate, but I consider myself a recovered alcoholic as the term is used in the BB. This means that I don't suffer from any obsession to pick up a drink, and the 10th Step promises are a general fact of my existence.

Now, does my human tendency towards selfishness show its face at times? Absolutely. I make mistakes frequently. I screw up and have to make amends. This is why I have a daily process of taking inventory and the appropriate actions as needed. The bottom line for me is, my life today is god-centered and god-directed (however I may define that higher power, or not define it). Instead of being driven by fear and basing my actions on self, for the most part my thoughts and actions are based on spiritual principles and the will of something greater than me. To my mind, that is a very far cry from untreated alcoholism, whether drinking or not. However, I still have flaws, defects, and all sorts of other opportunities to have self show up in my life. I'm convinced, through my own experience, that this is OK. As long as I'm willing to follow the program on a daily basis, which keeps me tapped into this power, I have an opportunity to grow towards the person I was always intended to be.

[muvinon]

When I go to a meeting, I say a prayer on the way, "God, direct me to that which you would have me hear." Then, I just sort of pay attention. Always hear at least one thing that rings firm and true......and it's a great meeting, then.

I also listen respectfully to others, but I don't necessarily agree or relate even.

I have some pet peeves, but that's all they are. Whether people are recovered or recovering isn't one of them.

As for recovered from alcoholism, yes.....I've been restored to sanity. I have no obsession to drink. Rarely think about it and, when I do, it's fleeting. All the rest is spiritual growth....which is enjoyable most of the time. The "angst" is gone.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot

... what does it mean for us when we say our alcoholism illness has been or otherwise is spiritually arrested, in remission, sleeping, behind us, treated, non-active, etc... you get the idea... living the real solution.

I'd like to hear from experienced members...

I can honestly say I no longer suffer from alcoholism. For me the problem "does not exist". I not only stopped thinking about drinking, I also stopped thinking about not drinking. I no longer worry about relapse and I no longer try to manage my abstinence in any way shape or form. Some Power Higher than me is doing all that for me.

I would not call myself cured. My sobriety is contingent on my staying spiritually fit ODAAT. However, my sobriety is not contingent on anything external like meetings, encouragement or slaps on the back.

I am not alone in this experience. I have met dozens of others who's experience is similar. It is described quite accurately in the Big Book:

"We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality - safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is our experience. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition."
(page 85)

[RobbyRobot]

Originally Posted by Music

I'm suspicious of anyone who says they're in tune with God every minute of every day. I'm equally suspicious of anyone who says their sobriety has never been effected by life stuff that makes them crazy every so often. If I read page 100...101 in the Big Book where it talks about the Eskimo and the bottle of scotch, it also says that a person who thinks like that still has an alcoholic mind. I don't fit that discription. I'm not afraid to go anywhere, anytime if I have a good reason.

Just two days ago an old friend of mine whom I hadn't seen in about 5 years told me about his sponor of 36 years sobriety, watching TV and drinking no-alcohol beer. Personally, I wouldn't give you a dime for that guys state of mind. My friend asked my opinion and I told him "if you hang around a ***** house long enough, you're going to get laid." Why would an alcoholic even want to taste the stuff that turned his life upside down? Not to mention, (no-alcohol) beer is not entirely alcohol free!

Being sober is not only being free of being drunk, it's being of sound, healthy mind and I don't know about any of you all, I get nuts sometimes just from life stuff. However, as of right now, I haven't found it necessary to drink over any of it.

Thanks, Music.

Yeah, I know all about that Eskimo story, and I don't fit that description either. I totally agree the sponsor drinking no-alcohol beer is still thinking with an alcoholic mind, poor guy. 36 yrs, eh? What a waste.

I like what you said about still going to meetings, and kicking the sober tires so to speak, just to make sure things are still rolling smoothly.

No reason to drink. Yeah. Nuts about the ups and owns of life sometimes, yeah, me too.

Once we get past the alcoholism, we're just ourselves doing our sober non-drinking thing, and nothing wrong in that.

Ain't life grand?!!

[wellwisher]

I personally see my recovery to be two-pronged. There is the obsession/compulsion element; the second is the thought-process element.

The compulsion to drink has left me a long, long time ago. I remember a rehab counselor talking about him having a sleeping tiger within; one that snarls and growls and tears at your insides, but eventually settles down and can do no harm as it goes to sleep. All one has to do is add alcohol, and the tiger will roar to life. That image really stuck with me all this time, and I have no fear of the tiger re-awakening. I won't feed it. So far in my recovery, I have had several "perfect storms" of everything going exactly wrong; loss of loved ones to disease, near financial ruin, yet I have not experienced that compulsion to drink in all these years. It is seared in my brain that no problem will be made better by drinking.

The second prong, to me, is the pointy one. I have to continue to be vigilant on my thought processes. I was handed, and accepted, a belief system about myself and people around me as I grew up in an alcoholic home, and it is after these post-recovery "perfect storms" that my thinking starts to go south. I agree with the concept of the "ism" in alcoholism, and it is where I have to continue to work. It is easy for me to reach for my AA tools when things have already gone south, and they provide me much comfort.

I pretty much do okay in times of external crisis, believe or not - so easy to reach for those AA tools for comfort. It is in the day to day, as I'm living the benefits listed in the promises, where I end up getting in trouble, and the effects are cumulative. When things are going well, my mind seems to get lazy and I move to automatic pilot; the old way of thinking starts creeping back in. I lose that daily review of the day that is so necessary for me, and assessment of what I could have done better or what I am grateful for, and the cumulative effect of living days or years like this brought me to a painful place about two years ago. By my not living mindfully, I reverted back to the old thinking, and man, I made a mess of it. I call it my dry drunk period, and I know people eschew that term as being derogatory or fallacy, but for me, it was very real. There is no stigma attached to that phrase for me; to me, it is what it is.

So, for me, when I say I am recovered, I refer to the obsession. The second prong, the mindful living required of me on a daily basis, is an ongoing process and one that never ends. For this thinking, this fantastic program of step work and design for living so brilliantly put together, I am forever grateful for it.

[tomsteve]

i like these promises from the BB:

And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone - even alcohol. For by this time sanity will have returned. We will seldom be interested in liquor. If tempted, we recoil from it as from a hot flame. We react sanely and normally, and we will find that this has happened automatically. We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality - safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is our experience. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition.

It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on our laurels. We are headed for trouble if we do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all of our activities. "How can I best serve Thee - Thy will (not mine) be done." These are thoughts which must go with us constantly. We can exercise our will power along this line all we wish. It is the proper use of the will.

[RobbyRobot]

Awesome posts guys, thanks.

I gotta go and pickup my good wife at the airport, so I don't have time to respond more just now, but I wish I did, lol. She's been gone a week stateside, and we miss each other alot, and that missing feeling, that too is from having a good sobriety full of life and love...

Later.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by wellwisher

The second prong, to me, is the pointy one. I have to continue to be vigilant on my thought processes. I was handed, and accepted, a belief system about myself and people around me as I grew up in an alcoholic home, and it is after these post-recovery "perfect storms" that my thinking starts to go south. I agree with the concept of the "ism" in alcoholism, and it is where I have to continue to work. It is easy for me to reach for my AA tools when things have already gone south, and they provide me much comfort.

"Vigilant" is a good word for how I now manage my Spiritual Fitness. I no longer try to control my thoughts or feelings with diligence. That is, I don't force the result with willpower, I simply pray and meditate and wait patiently for the results.

The sobriety I have now is the "Emotional Sobriety" Bill Wilson talked about in his Grapevine articles. Or the kind mentioned on page 15 "It is a design for living that works in rough going."

I got divorced while sober. I went 18 months without a paycheck while sober. I lived 6 months without electricity while sober. I lost my house while sober. I went 10 days without food while sober. There were times when I thought of committing suicide while sober but drinking never entered my mind even when I was destitute.

When I finally got a job as an long-haul truck driver, I had to work and live in the truck for two weeks before I got my first paycheck. I had to stay out on the road for nine weeks straight before I got a day off (or an AA meeting). I spent my first few weekends off in a sleeper-cab without any form of entertainment except an AM-FM radio and a pocket sized Big Book.
Not that I am complaining. I did learn something extremely valuable from it all;

"In this life - pain is inevitable - suffering is optional."

[PaperDolls]

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot

..... our alcoholism illness has been or otherwise is spiritually arrested, in remission, sleeping, behind us, treated, non-active, etc...

I don't use any of those words personally.....I'm a sober alcoholic in recovery.

The obsession ... that's what we recover from .... my brain is always still there. Cranking away, sometimes spitting out some crazy thoughts.

I have absolutely no desire to drink. I do, however, have fleeting thoughts. They generally last about 1 second or less. Luckily, I automatically think the entire thing through. NOT something I used to do.

This weekend, I went out for the first time in over a year. It was an actual club so a night like that .... it's probably been 3 years. My drink was right in front of me. Soda. As I was talking I picked up my glass without looking. It wasn't mine. Coke and whiskey. It took me a second to process it and then my brain started cranking ..... longer than a second this time....and then the thought was gone. I found hubby and talked to him about it (he's also sober). Told him the craziness that went through my head and then we went on about our night. Sober and happy.

In the past, this triggered me. I think mostly because I didn't really want to not drink .... not to mention, I wasn't happy in the least. I wasn't worried about loosing my sobriety because I had accidentally sipped a drink. In the past it would have. I was worried about what others would think. If they thought I wasn't sober anymore because of that then I may as well drink, right? Today, it's MY sobriety. That was very powerful for me. It made a difference.

So "spiritually arrested, in remission, sleeping, behind us, treated, non-active, etc..." I suppose some of those apply today. Honestly, I'm afraid of calling myself "recovered" because I think my brain might take it as "I don't have to keep working at it". I want to keep working .... growing. That's what I'm supposed to do. Behind me - No. Never.