A question about making amends??

[mark201233]

Hi,

I am about to make a few amends. I know it is best to make them face to face but if this is not possible is it as effective to do them on the phone, on skype, or by letter or email.

I am aiming to do them in person but if not what are your thoughts on all these?

MarkYou_Rock_

[Taking5]

The book says to "make direct amends wherever possible.....". Would you consider these to be direct amends if done remotely?

Also one question. Are you apologizing or making amends? An apology rarely qualifies as an amends IMHO.

[sugarbear1]

What has your sponsor suggested?

Mine were put in three categories....some were for Now....

[TheJungianThing]

I don't know. Don't have the experience. Maybe your sponsor will say you do it that way and then you will. If, after doing so, something is lacking then you know. If the person receiving the amends doesn't warm up to it, then you'll know. Then you can share your experience with others ?


Haha, I still gave my opinion on an experience I never had. I did two amends via phone because I called the folks first to set up the meeting. They absolved me, was glad I was finally getting sober and passed on the face to face to face. What do I do then ? Argue with them ? That's the closest I can get.

[omegasupreme]

I'd love to give a cute canned response of "ask your sponsor" and tell you I run every amend I make by my sponsor...but what if you don't have a sponsor? Heresy right? For a period of a year, maybe a bit more, I didn't have much in the way of a physical human sponsor. The one I had was overcome by the obsession to shoot amphetamines because no one in our lineage was doing what is outlined in the Big Book and we were failing to perfect and enlarge our spiritual lives...we were doing bits and pieces of what is outlined in some cute, easier, softer workbooks...which I nearly left the fellowship on behind suicide, but that's another topic. The point is, it was quite difficult to find a sponsor using the first 164 in remote parts of Texas.

So what was I doing without a sponsor in regards to amends? These two guys, Mark H. and Joe H. have a handful of workshops on compact disc. I began listening to them...all of them...and they took me through the book, line by line, page by page. Mark and Joe said jump, this guy said how high? I followed precise, clear cut directions, blow by blow. When I got to amends I had plenty that were scattered about the state of Texas...it's big here...lotta distance to cover. Some, especially ex girlfriends I had not seen in years and face to face didn't quite "feel" right...new 6th sense right? Prayer, meditation, write a letter, pray again, meditate again...for maybe a month at a time on each letter...to send or not to send. Slowly but surely every ex began to appear on Facebook. One made the implication I shouldn't contact her anymore...being the good alky I am I wrote her another letter and then never contacted her again. Another, my motives were less than pure and I had to make that amend a second time...her and I are great friends today...way better than when we were together. The other 5 or 6 were finished via online chat sessions...they all expressed sincere gratitude and thankfulness for my willingness to set things right and get my act together.

What about one's that may cause harm? I loved chasing women that were married/in relationships. I only made amends to one's that I knew for sure the relationship had expired...so that left me with one that was unknown. I left it alone as to not cause harm to her husband. Nearly a year after that decision she looks me up on facebook and wants to make things right. Her marriage failed and she got divorced...so I got to clean up my side too.

At various times in my personal adventures I had some misconduct in the male/female dynamic that was nearly unspeakable for the longest...until it's not and it has to come out or I drink. Activity that arises when blackouts are no longer blackouts and everything is crystal clear...and I can't believe the monster I had become...behaviors that a direct amend would 99% sure cause harm to at least one individual...perhaps more given the circumstances. There is One who has all Power right? God is a part of me and a part of you and a part of everyone right? Oneness right? So I 5th step it with a woman in the program that was a victim of the same behavior...and it becomes crystal clear an amend is in order. So another lady in the program comes into my life...victim of the same behavior...BINGO!...a surrogate. The amend was made through her...I still remember with clarity the day she told me my amend for that was complete...for nearly 24hrs I lost the ability to speak...intense visions began showing up in meditation...a clear understanding of the Oneness, the Unicity, call it what you will....

Some I never saw or wouldn't see me: My ex still expresses she wants no amends. Her parents, when I tried calling would never answer. 3 calls is the limit. On the third I leave a voicemail expressing/explaining the nature of my call. Never hear back from them. Prior to this, in public they would look the other way if we met in public...never even acknowledge my existence...the strangest thing started happening after that third phone call...next time I run into her father he walks up, shakes my hand, and asks me how I am doing.

I could list more...if you perhaps have a specific amend in question to narrow down the spectrum...but all of those were made under the supervision of the Ultimate Sponsor only...no human power.

Now...for some cute canned responses I love saying to anyone in amends:
Remember...it was agreed at the beginning we would go to any length for victory over alcohol.

AND

9 times out of 10 you will be amazed...

AND

This program isn't about relief...it's about freedom...so how free do you want to be?

[tomsteve]

there are many ways that it can be done. however, i found suggestions for the best way starting on pg 76. there was a lot of practical experience used to write it, so i went with what worked for them. worked good for me.
the main thing with em iffen i had to use the phone or write a letter was checking my motives for why.

[bbthumper]

I would ask what makes them not possible to do face to face. Is it just that it is not possible right now? Maybe you have to save some money to travel somewhere to make the amends? Or wait till you have time off of work to do it? Id talk to your sponsor about it.

[PaperDolls]

I made several of mine by phone because they lived too far away. It was either that or just not do them.

[muvinon]

I'd make direct amends when possible. When that's not possible, phone call works.

Really, it's a matter of simple logistics. What's far more important is that it comes from your heart.

[NoelleR]

People seem to be confused about the definition of the word 'direct' when it comes to amends. 'Direct' does not mean face-to-face, it means directly to the individual and not through someone else...........

In other words, I made direct amends to my brother Sam. Well, that would not be a direct amend to the rest of my family because I presumed he would pass it on (those would be indirect amends).

Direct means directly to the person in question; it can be in person, by phone to that person, by mail......it doesn't mean it must be face-to-face (that's only one way of making 'direct' amends.

.....and remember, it only says 'direct amends wherever possible.' There may be some amends not possible to be made directly.


(o:
NoelleR

[freya]

Well, I guess it kinda depends -- did you hurt them over the phone? by letter? with an e-mail? on Skype?

I think letter can work well with someone who's died -- or was never "alive" in the conventional sense, like an aborted child. I have a suggested format for those kind of amends (written by Scott L., Nashville) and I've used it myself as well as with several sponsees. It's a pretty intense process, but has always worked well.

Have you ever heard of the Amends World Tour? I've known several people who have done those, usually in several legs, due to time and expense considerations. I guess, for me, it's more important for the amend to be direct than for it to be done quickly -- although having to do a tour does not justify putting it off any longer than is absolutely necessary for one to get the tour(s) planned.

I'm not a big fan of Virtual Reality...and the idea of virtual amends kinda blows my mind. Luckily, I didn't have this problem, as no one I had to make amends to had moved off the continent -- although, in that case, I'm pretty sure my sponsor would have had me saving up air fare -- So, OK, off the planet.

I guess if it really, truly is totally impossible to do it face-to-face ever, I wouldn't have any choice, but I think I'd pray long and hard for a choice and a chance (You might be surprised how creative HP can be!) before I'd resort to virtual amends.

freya

[paul99]

I have made all my amends so far face to face, but that's because I can - all those I need to make amends to so far are in my city. But I have some that live half way across the world, so I will no doubt have to do those by phone. I personally feel that if I truly am making a strong effort to try and find these people, and try to make the approach so that I can speak to them face-to-face and it doesn't work for some reason, then yes, I will go the phone route.

I just have to be careful in trying not waiting for the "perfect" moment (is there such thing?), as I might lose my chance to do it. So if that means it's a call or even an email, as opposed to missing my opportunity, I will do so.

[FredG]

I think the step reads "Made direct amends to such people - where ever possible - except when to do so would injure them, or others"

My interpretation is "Made direct amends" means directly, as in face to face.

"Where ever possible" means if it can be done, do it, somehow. During the years I was out there, I pushed drugs to a lot of young people. I've no idea who they were or where they are now, so direct amends weren't possible, but I went to the local police, admitted what I did, knowing full well they could lock me up and became willing to accept the consequences for my actions, whatever they were. Up to and including jail time. Lucky for me they put me to work councilling young people on drug abuse, rather than making me serve time.

"Except when to do so would injure them or others". Like you OmegaSupreme, I took advantage of a lot of women in those days. Most, if not all, have committed relationships now. To go back and start making amends now would probably injure their current relationships, so right now making my amends isn't possible. Maybe at some point in my life I will run into them and I will be able to make amends then, and I am willing to do so, but only if it's not going to cause them more harm now than I did then.

[PaperDolls]

It wasn't possible for me to fly from the Midwest to the West coast to the East coast and back to the Midwest. Stalling on my amends until that was possible would have been a horrible decision for me. Although making those amends by phone was not ideal they had a huge impact on me and my ability to heal past wounds and move on.

I could never suggest someone not make the amends until you can be face to face because it would have been a dangerous place for me. Sometimes it's simply not possible to be face to face. Period.

For me it was important to do them from the heart. I hate to think where I might be today if someone had suggested to me that I must do them face to face or not at all.

[bbthumper]

Bottom line for me is, How free do I want to be? I am told to "make direct amends wherever possible except when to do so would injure them or others". Not "except when to do so would be difficult or inconvenient." I think consulting with your sponsor about what makes the direct amends not possible is essential.

[PaperDolls]

"Difficult or inconvenient" are not the same as impossible.

[bbthumper]

Agreed. I personally need to consult with another person about what is impossible. Im walking on thin ice if I make that decision on my own.

[wow04]

For me, direct amends meant face to face. There are some I couldn't do face to face, based on people moving. I had a person who moved clear across the country. I couldn't fly out there, so I called her.

Now there are some amends I am unable to make at the moment as it would injure relationships they are in now. If the time comes I can make those amends, God will show me.