"Only a spiritual experience will conquer"

[awuh1]

I have been puzzling about a sentence from the first paragraph of the chapter “We Agnostics”. It states, “You may be suffering from a malady which only a spiritual experience will conquer”. Does this mean that a spiritual experience is necessary (required) for recovery from alcoholism? Another way of saying this would be, “you may or may not be an alcoholic, but if you are, then only a spiritual experience will conquer your malady (alcoholism)”.

A second interpretation might be to think of “a malady” as a specific “type” of alcoholic. That is, one type of alcoholic of which there might be several types. In other words, all alcoholics either cannot quit entirely, or when drinking have little control over the amount they take (as stated earlier in the paragraph), but your malady, has some (as yet) unspecified characteristic in addition to this, and requires a spiritual experience in order conquer it.

The next paragraph points to one such variety of alcoholic, the hopeless variety.

My question is … is a spiritual experience always necessary for recovery from alcoholism, in your opinion?

There may be other interpretations of the meaning regarding the requirement of a spiritual experience. I would love to hear them.

Thanks



All BB Quotes-1st. Edition

[tomsteve]

is a spiritual experience always necessary for recovery from alcoholism, in your opinion?

no. many people have recovered without it.

the sentence before says,"if, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or even if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take in,you are probably alcoholic."

now, you left out the part: "if that be the case...."

now, the definition of that lil word "if" = on condition that; supposing.

so, "if" a person is like as described( which the descriptions are in the first 3 chapters), then it may( may= the possibilty that something is true) be a spiritual experience is required.

so, in short, it is saying that there is the possibilty that a spiritual experience is necessary

[Mark75]

Originally Posted by awuh1

“You may be suffering from a malady which only a spiritual experience will conquer”.

Another way of saying this would be,

“you may or may not be an alcoholic, but if you are, then only a spiritual experience will conquer your malady (alcoholism)”.

I disagree, I don't think that those two statements say the same thing. And I believe that is where we get into that endless, somewhat antagonistic, debate with our non AA brothers and sisters in recovery.

The reader of the big book may, infact, be suffering from a malady that ONLY a spiritual experience will conquer... and I have absolutely no problem with that. My own spiritual experience has conquered many of my "isms" and I am very grateful for that... it's a simple solution to what seemed like a complex problem...

But this gets interpreted by others, in and out of AA, that if you get recovered sans a spiritual experience, then you must not be a "real" alcoholic. I don't think that is what the Big Book meant here.

Peace...

[CraigA]

I believe that you have to have a spiritual experience to overcome alcoholism. I tried on my own, mixing it up several different ways, even when I knew I was going to lose everything, i couldn't stop. I did ask for help but never followed thru, never felt I had a chance to stay stopped. Always an excuse came up, something bad or something good.

When I finally reached the end of my rope (Life) I asked for help (through prayer- in the woods with a rope) and said i will try this sober thing one more time. I ended up on a halfway house where they had you go to AA meetings, get a sponsor, counseling, etc... . Through this I had spiritual experiences which started to change the way I think and behave. First I always asked my Higher Power for help and tried to do the next right thing even if it hurt. Once when I believed in a Higher Power which was not myself (I realized that I had no power over the drink/drug) it was GOD that kept the urge at bay ( urge not using thoughts, this was my part to work on when they came in) that is when I was able to do do what it states in the BB on page 27----"Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called VITAL SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES. To me these occurences are phenomena. They appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements. Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set conceptions and motives begin to dominate them. ..." It does go on but I understood that, spiritual experiences are when you invite God in to help you work through your garbage, human denial is hard to cut through and without God it is tough. If you are lucky enough to stay sober without changing people might not like you so much.

This is for the alcoholic who can't stay sober on their own and need help, not everybody is one but you can quickly diagnose yourself because noone else can diagnose you. I still get on my knees in the morning and at night asking for help and thanking Him, even with the time I have. My story started out asking God for help and after all these years he blesses me with another day of sobriety.

Work the steps and you will have a SPIRITUAL AWAKENENING!!
God bless your journey and thank you for the topic!!!!

[Db1105]

"My question is … is a spiritual experience always necessary for recovery from alcoholism, in your opinion? "

Step 12 tells me that if I work the previous 11 steps correctly, and to the best of my ability, I'll have a 'spiritual awakening'. It certainly was a spiritual experience for me. The foundation of recovery in AA is reliance of a power greater than oneself, so the answer to your question is in Alcoholics Anonymous, yes.

I'm not familiar with other methods, but I bet many have stopped drinking without any spiritual experience.

[KnowHope]

Originally Posted by awuh1

I have been puzzling about a sentence from the first paragraph of the chapter “We Agnostics”. It states, “You may be suffering from a malady which only a spiritual experience will conquer”. Does this mean that a spiritual experience is necessary (required) for recovery from alcoholism? Another way of saying this would be, “you may or may not be an alcoholic, but if you are, then only a spiritual experience will conquer your malady (alcoholism)”.

[FONT=Calibri][COLOR=#000000]A second interpretation might be to think of “a malady” as a specific “type” of alcoholic. That is, one type of alcoholic of which there might be several types. In other words, all alcoholics either cannot quit entirely, or when drinking have little control over the amount they take (as stated earlier in the paragraph), but your malady, has some (as yet) unspecified characteristic in addition to this, and requires a spiritual experience in order conquer it.

AA is designed to treat the chronic alcoholic, also described in the book as the real alcoholic. It seems to me like the the basic components of alcoholism are distinguished, over and over again, in chapters such as "The Doctor's Opinion," "There Is A Solution," "More About Alcoholism," "We Agnostics" and "To Wives," along with what we will need to to about it.

I see that first paragraph in "We Agnostics" as a concise definition in and of itself:

"If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely,"

As I understand it: Do you have the mental component of this illness, suffering from a mental obsession with these strange mental blank spots that are stronger than your power to stop and stay stopped based on your own resources? For sure, no matter how many times I tried to choose not to drink, I couldn't stay stopped.

"or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take,"

As I understand it: Do you have the physical abnormal reaction to alcohol, likened to an allergy, so that when you put alcohol into your body it triggers the phenomenon of craving causing a compulsion to keep putting alcohol into your body that is stronger than your power to stop? For sure, no matter how much I wanted to be able to control my drinking, I had lost the ability to control the amount I took.

I think a key part of this is the word or. If you have one or the other - the physical allergy or the mental obsession - or of course both, you had probably better find out because as far as I know, non-alcoholics never suffer from either one of these two symptoms, and if you're an alcoholic you've got a progressive illness that wants you dead but will settle for you drunk.

"you are probably alcoholic."

We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic (it doesn't mean we don't know the difference), but if you're these things I don't know what else you would be.

"If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer."

I think it just means what it says. If you've got alcoholism, which has just been described up until now throughout this book, and even in this paragraph, then it may be that only a spiritual experience will be able to create a change significant enough to save your ass.

See the story with Dr. Jung in "There Is A Solution":

"The doctor said: “You have the mind of a chronic alcoholic. I have never seen one single case recover, where that state of mind existed to the extent that it does in you.” Our friend felt as though the gates of hell had closed on him with a clang.

He said to the doctor, “Is there no exception?”

“Yes,” replied the doctor, “there is. Exceptions to cases such as yours have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences. To me these occurrences are phenomena. They appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements. Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them. In fact, I have been trying to produce some such emotional rearrangement within you. With many individuals the methods which I employed are successful, but I have never been successful with an alcoholic of your description.”*"

If you are interested in reading more about this, there are also some great letters between Dr. Jung and Bill Wilson that you can find here:


Bill Wilson's Letter To Dr. Carl Jung , Jan 23, 1961


A.A. History -- Dr. Carl Jung's Letter To Bill Wilson, Jan 30, 1961




Big Book quotes from the first edition

[KnowHope]

Originally Posted by awuh1

The next paragraph points to one such variety of alcoholic, the hopeless variety.

If we are chronic alcoholics as described in the Big Book, we are the alcoholics of the seemingly hopeless variety.

If we don't have the physical allergy, we're not powerless over alcohol.

If we don't suffer from the mental obsession, then we're not powerless over the inability to manage the thought or the decision not to drink.

If we don't fit the description, step 1 does not apply to us.

I find some more important information in "We Agnostics":

"Lack of power, that was our dilemma. we had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?

Well, that’s exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem."

The 12 steps are a proven formula to get us to God.

My problem is: lack of power. The solution is: Power.

As I find it, the steps are designed to clear the channels from the things that are blocking me from that Power. Some things that block me from the power? Alcohol and other drugs, certainly. But also selfishness, self-seeking, dishonesty, fear, resentments, anger, guilt, shame, unmade amends; my mind can become such a noisy or isolated place, I can feel blocked from the sunlight of the spirit and become so swept up in self-delusion that a drink or suicide can seem like a good idea. Yet if I'm connected to the Power, my existence on this earth seems to be magnificent. I experience unity with all things, Love, Knowingness, bliss, harmony, a seemingly endless ability to give, acceptance, forgiveness, a connection to a 6th sense, an active and growing relationship with God.

See step 12:

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

We carry the message of having had a spiritual awakening the result of these steps which is sufficient to recover from alcoholism.

Originally Posted by awuh1

My question is … is a spiritual experience always necessary for recovery from alcoholism, in your opinion?

There may be other interpretations of the meaning regarding the requirement of a spiritual experience. I would love to hear them.

A spiritual experience, or a spiritual awakening. For me, it has been a necessity. I don't know how I could ever stay sober for long, and certainly not happily, without either one of these.

We may not need AA to get there - as it's written, we have no monopoly on God - but I have never personally known anyone who has recovered without one, whether they believe in God or not. Call it a psychic change, I think it's all the same thing.

Does it mean it can't happen? I don't think that's what it means. Really, I know what my own experiences are, the experiences shared and witness by those that have sponsored me and those that I sponsor, but ultimately I have no clue how the universe works, what's possible and what isn't. Who am I to say what God can't do?

Just a thought, however. Just as I can't expect to live off the food I ate two weeks ago, I can't rest on my laurels and expect to be spiritually sated only by the past. "What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition." I think, I don't want to know just about the spiritual experience someone had in 1989 - I want to hear about the one they had today. Yanno? Tell me about your spiritual condition today.


Two full days in a new 5th step last week, nine amends addressed yesterday, I've been broken again and I'm on my knees, more to be revealed.




Big Book quotes from the first edition

[shaun00]

My question is … is a spiritual experience always necessary for recovery from alcoholism, in your opinion?

There may be other interpretations of the meaning regarding the requirement of a spiritual experience. I would love to hear them.

my experience.......i needed to discover what life was like just not drinking, to realize that maybe this internal turmoil wasn't about drinking.
"In the last analysis it is only there he may be found"
Was a spiritual experience necessary for me to recover....?......the fact is, i wouldn't be here .....too long living page 52 would have killed me years ago.

What does my spiritual awakening look like ?....quite simply, a monumental shift in my thinking and outlook on life.

There is no requirement for a spiritual experience or awakening......only that we honesty seek him..a power, divine spirit, ...i call him god.
Its not limited to drunks or even just members of alcoholics anonymous...

[UpperbucksAAguy]

I can only speak for me- The path outlined in the Big Book worked. I am open to other paths, but why would I walk another path?

[PaperDolls]

I had to change the way I was thinking. Change my attitudes and be open minded to other beliefs.

The term 'spiritual experience' made me believe I would have this burning bush thing. Not even close in my experience. I prefer to call it a psychic change ..... to ease my analytic brain.

Psychic Change:
A radical change in our system of beliefs, our belief system we have been living with and operating under all our life ..... in the case of the alcoholic, a belief system based on fear and hate and illusion.

[augustwest]

A spiritual experience was necessary for me to recover. That's all i know and all i really care about the subject.

[shockozulu]

It wasn't until I had my spiritual experience that I was able to put the bottle down once and for all. I've recently been through hell and it barely crossed my mind to drink.

That's just my personal experience.

[muvinon]

Absolutely, for me. I knew I was alcoholic. I even understood the program. However, I did not and could not stop drinking until I awoke one morning and knew, I had been touched.

I am sober by the grace of a God who understands me perfectly.....

Of that, I am sure.

[Innerchild]

I know for myself therapists, doctors, and anyone close to me could not help me stop drinking and I could not help myself. At first, I did not understand the whole HP thing but working with my sponsor I finally understood that since I am powerless over alcohol only a force greater than myself will help me stop drinking. I believe it.

[awuh1]

Thanks everyone for responding.

Tomsteve - I completely agree with you.

Mark75 - I guess I was trying to see what others make of that sentence and not put any one interpretation on it. I like this thought a lot >>>” But this gets interpreted by others, in and out of AA, that if you get recovered sans a spiritual experience, then you must not be a "real" alcoholic. I don't think that is what the Big Book meant here.”

CraigA-- I needed a spiritual experience as well. I guess the crux of the question is ..does everyone?

DB1105 For me the question is more about the nature of alcoholism than the AA solution for it.

KnowHope – I’m quite familiar with the Wilson–Jung correspondence. The fact the Jung even took on Hazards case would seem to indicate that Jung believed that a psychotherapeutic method held the promise of a solution. In his reply to Bill he lists three ways that the “higher understanding” can be found. All of these, it could be argued, involve spirituality. I believe that he could, incorporate his psychotherapeutic method in the latter of those three mentioned solutions.

Shawn00 – I like your description of what spiritual awakening looks like and I could not agree more that there is no requirement for it.

Upperbucks- I agree it works, and has for literally millions.

PD – Yes the educational variety. I believe what Jung referred to it as “a higher education of the mind beyond the confines of mere rationality”.

Augustwest – I must confess that that’s what I care most about, most days myself.

Shockozulu - That’s been my experience as well.

Muvion – “An act of grace”

Innerchild – None of those helped me either and I tried all of them, often.

Thanks again everyone for responding. It’s lots of food for thought.

[Tommyh]

I had to have the spiritual awakening or physic change as Paperdoll put it or I would have died

[KnowHope]

Originally Posted by awuh1

KnowHope – I’m quite familiar with the Wilson–Jung correspondence. The fact the Jung even took on Hazards case would seem to indicate that Jung believed that a psychotherapeutic method held the promise of a solution. In his reply to Bill he lists three ways that the “higher understanding” can be found. All of these, it could be argued, involve spirituality. I believe that he could, incorporate his psychotherapeutic method in the latter of those three mentioned solutions.

I could be mistaken on some of the details, in which case I would love some solid references (actually, I would love some either way), but as it has been recounted to me on a number of occasions, Roland had already appealed for the help of both Freud and Adler, who both chose to turn him away. As a result of Roland's work with Jung, Roland "believed he had acquired such a profound knowledge of the inner workings of his mind and its hidden springs that relapse was unthinkable," yet he relapsed on his way back to America before even getting out of Europe. Making his way back to Zurich, he returned to seek Jung's help again, looking for answers. He was at that point told by Jung that there was no medical or psychological hope for an alcoholic of his type, that his only hope was a vital spiritual or religious experience, which Jung had never been able to produce in an alcoholic of his type (the chronic variety, or real alcoholic). It appears Jung had initially assumed that Roland was not as serious a case as he actually was in their first year together. As it reads, "I have been trying to produce some such emotional rearrangement within you. With many individuals the methods which I employed are successful, but I have never been successful with an alcoholic of your description.”* When he determined Roland to be an alcoholic of the hopeless variety, he did not continue to treat him. As it's written in the BB, "In the doctor’s judgment he was utterly hopeless; he could never regain his position in society and he would have to place himself under lock and key or hire a bodyguard if he expected to live long. That was a great physician’s opinion." What was shared by Jung about the necessity of the spiritual experience played a part in our 2nd and 12th steps, as Dr. Silkworth's contributions played a part in our 1st step. As Jung also described in the letter to Bill, it's "spiritus contra spiritum." Therefore, unless I'm misunderstanding, I don't believe Jung thought a psychological approach would work to sufficiently treat chronic alcoholism.



Big Book quotes from the first edition

[Bazerington]

My question is … is a spiritual experience always necessary for recovery from alcoholism, in your opinion?

Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!! :-)
Now, I've been wrestling with this question all day, and doing my head in thinking how do you put it etc. Then you go and ask the question I was thinking :-)!!
Thanks so much
Thanks to everyone, I was worried maybe AA had the monopoly on spiritual awakenings... Glad so many people are getting them and hope I too will get one :-)!!

[totfit]

Well, I had to change my mind about drinking.

[Route164]

God had to change my mind about not drinking. Having lost the power of choice in drink it required an act of providence to restore me to sanity in relation to alcohol. The steps awakened me to the grace. By surrendering and submitting to his way of life for me I stay awake. I now see God does care about me. He does have an opinion about my life, ALL areas. There is a price for salvation but the benefits are priceless. This is a huge change in my life, to not pontificate and theorize God but to know that the power of God in and through me is the ONLY reason I can write inventories, make amends, help newcomers . I wanted to be saved on my terms and conditions , I kept getting drunk and stoned as a result. To be sober I have to agree to Gods terms and give credit to him in all ways, always! I have the 12 steps to thank for getting the spark of God in me. I needed and need a spiritual experience to keep me recovered and free, a slave to nothing. The spiritual experience freed me.