Open Minded

[UpperbucksAAguy]

Of necessity there will have to be discussion of matters medical, psychiatric, social, and religious. We are aware that these matters are, from their very nature, controversial. Nothing would please us so much as to write a book which would contain no basis for contention or argument. We shall do our utmost to achieve that ideal. ( BB page 19)

We shall do our utmost to achieve that ideal- As I read it, the ideal is to not be controversial. The three main influences on AA at that time were:

Religion

Psychiatry

Social influences

The book then goes on to tell us:

Most of us sense that real tolerance of other people’s shortcomings and viewpoints and a
respect for their opinions are attitudes which make us more useful to others. Our very lives, as ex-problem drinkers, depend upon our constant thought of others and how we may help meet their needs. (BB page 19-20)

They are asking the reader ( and would be member of AA) to have an open mind on these very charged and polarizing topics. What does it mean to have an open mind?

An open mind simply means you keep from making decisions before knowing all of the facts. Bill's story provides us with a classic example of a closed mind as he takes Ebby's inventory:

I was aghast. So that was it—last summer an alcoholic crackpot; now, I suspected, a little cracked about religion. (BB page 9)

Bill's mind was clearly not open. But Ebby did no ranting. He even caused Bill to question his own conviction. How did he accomplish this? He simply told Bill what had happened to him as a result of following the directions offered to him. Bill's reaction a few pages down:

It began to look as though religious people were right after all. Here was something at work in a human heart which had done the impossible. My ideas about miracles were drastically revised right then. Never mind the musty past; here sat a miracle directly across the kitchen table. (BB page 11)

Ebby did no preaching, issued no warnings to Bill. Even offered him absolute freedom by suggesting he choose his own conception of God ( see page 12 of Bill's story) True tolerance to Bill's shortcomings and viewpoints were more convincing than the most powerful lecture.

We occasionally hear religious folks in the fellowship voice their frustration that any Higher Power other than a Christian one is acceptable in AA; that is not without validity based on many meetings where the mere mention of a certain Carpenter's name will bring up some age old intolerance. How did Ebby handle Bill's defiance? Was not Bill's offering him a drink a "button pusher"? Did it raise an eyebrow in Ebby? How did he match that act? The Big Book tells us on page 68:

We never apologize for God. Instead we let Him demonstrate, through us, what He can do.

What message are we carrying when we insult an Athiest in a meeting? Let alone a Christian? What message are we carrying when we belittle the efforts of the medical community?

[Music]

An "open mind" was explained to me in the beginning to mean that I should be open to new suggestions and ideas, due to the fact that I'd been running things "my way" for so long that I needed to make some changes as my way wasn't working. Acceptance and Tolerance are two key words here. However, some folks take an open mind to mean that I shouldn't judge; that I shouldn't make any decisions or commitments. On the contrary. As the old song says, "If I don't stand for something, I'll fall for anything." At some point in my recovery, I found myself setting boundaries dealing with people, in and out of AA. I changed my meeting schedule from feeling like I had to go to meetings daily in order to stay sober, to going to meetings according to other responsibilities having to do with work, family and personal needs. I know people who've been in AA for 20 years who still go to meetings almost every night of the week. IMO, they've missed the message somewhere along the way. My acceptance and tolerance level has changed very little when taking into account that the people I meet in AA are "here because they ain't all there". My sobriety comes first and today, sobriety has less to do with drinking than it does with living life as God would have me live life. Funny how focusing on God takes the emphysis off getting drunk.

[DayTrader]

Originally Posted by UpperbucksAAguy

What message are we carrying when we insult an Athiest in a meeting? Let alone a Christian? What message are we carrying when we belittle the efforts of the medical community?

A $hitty one, IMO.

The folks who can't stand talk of someone else's HP are just as bad as the Jesus/Allah/Mohammad/Buddha/etc folks who try to push their beliefs.

And as you mentioned bucks......isn't it curious to hear the long-term sober "spiritual gurus" in AA wax poetic about the steps, quote the book, carry a wonderful message.......and include something about how the medical community ruined AA.......or treatment centers a killing drunks.....

.......or even funnier, me passing judgement on them -- LMAO!

[NYCDoglvr]

What message are we carrying when we insult an Athiest in a meeting? Let alone a Christian? What message are we carrying when we belittle the efforts of the medical community?

This is the ego and grandiosity of someone who hasn't worked the steps. You can be sober and still be stupid.

[Music]

Maybe I've been going to the wrong meetings but I've never heard anyone insult anyone for believing or not believing in God or a Highe Power. I have however, heard people get on the soap box and speak of Jesus; the core message being if you don't believe in Jesus, etc. Personally, that's a turnoff to me. I express my experience, strength and hope when I talk. Consequently, my return to church and organized religion and the effect it's had on me and my life is part of my message. If that is a turnoff to someone, I guess it's just going to have to be a turnoff. My first sponsor told me I'm to share from the heart and what others do with it is up to them. For some it may be a good time to call their sponsor....or get one.

[DayTrader]

I've never heard anyone insult anyone for believing or not believing in God or a Highe Power.

I hear it ALL the time....hangin' with the smokers outside in the meeting after the meeting - which is the meeting when ppl like me (when we're new) finally get REALLY honest and don't run the same BS we just ran on the table......

[omegasupreme]

I've been asked to leave because I am not Christian. The tirading fire hazard with 26 years of dry time spiraled even further into obsurdity after that. 6 months later I made amends to him for being a pompous, Big Book wielding zealot...amazingly he made amends to me, "Aaron, I know I've been wrong this whole time.". Two minutes later he was shoveling Jesus down my throat again, fascinating deal.

[shockozulu]

Originally Posted by Music

An "open mind" was explained to me in the beginning to mean that I should be open to new suggestions and ideas, due to the fact that I'd been running things "my way" for so long that I needed to make some changes as my way wasn't working. Acceptance and Tolerance are two key words here. However, some folks take an open mind to mean that I shouldn't judge; that I shouldn't make any decisions or commitments. On the contrary. As the old song says, "If I don't stand for something, I'll fall for anything." At some point in my recovery, I found myself setting boundaries dealing with people, in and out of AA. I changed my meeting schedule from feeling like I had to go to meetings daily in order to stay sober, to going to meetings according to other responsibilities having to do with work, family and personal needs. I know people who've been in AA for 20 years who still go to meetings almost every night of the week. IMO, they've missed the message somewhere along the way. My acceptance and tolerance level has changed very little when taking into account that the people I meet in AA are "here because they ain't all there". My sobriety comes first and today, sobriety has less to do with drinking than it does with living life as God would have me live life. Funny how focusing on God takes the emphysis off getting drunk.

Music, what is wrong with some people who go to meetings almost every night of the week? I only ask because I know some people that do and they seem balanced and happy. Granted others still appear to be clinging to life in AA and act like its a necessity. Other people honestly just seem as if most of their friends are in the rooms so just as I would go to my book club, they keep coming back for the fellowship. As long as they have a good solid program what's wrong with this? I mean, its not like they aren't working during the day or that meetings determine the rest of their schedule.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by UpperbucksAAguy

What message are we carrying when we insult an Athiest in a meeting? Let alone a Christian?

I have gone full-circle on the idea that one needs a God to get results out of the steps. At first I thought it was impossible to stay sober without God. Then I came to believe God was optional. Now I suspect God might not be the best form of Higher Power for an alcoholic.

Looking back at my experience, I failed to stay sober believing in a static Christian God. I got results when I started to think of God as someone (or something) more or less flexible and growing at the same rate I was growing.

The more results (promises) that I experience, the more faith I have in the Path and/or Principles as the ultimate form of a Higher Power. Such as;

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."
(page 58)

"...practice these principles in all our affairs."
(page 60)

[Mark75]

God never changes, my perception, understanding, experience and definition does.

[Music]

Originally Posted by shockozulu

Music, what is wrong with some people who go to meetings almost every night of the week? I only ask because I know some people that do and they seem balanced and happy. Granted others still appear to be clinging to life in AA and act like its a necessity. Other people honestly just seem as if most of their friends are in the rooms so just as I would go to my book club, they keep coming back for the fellowship. As long as they have a good solid program what's wrong with this? I mean, its not like they aren't working during the day or that meetings determine the rest of their schedule.

I read and re-read what I stated above and nowhere do I see where I said anything about being "wrong." I did say it seemed to me they missed the message somewhere along the way. Getting sober isn't about substituting one addiction for another. I didn't get sober so I could go to AA meetings every night of the week. I have friends at work, church, and many other places who are just as important to me as my AA friends. And believe it or not, I hear less complaining about the sad state of affairs from friends outside of AA than I do in meetings. I choose to spend the majority of my time with positive people. Truthfully, the people in AA have changed a lot since I first came around. Most of the people I hung with in the beginning were serious about working the program of AA, not sitting around griping about doing this and doing that, questioning sponsorship and the steps like I hear so much now days. I guess maybe because back then, I had to work to get sober and do what I was told where today it seems like people want things handed to them with little or no effort on their part. I guess it's kind of indicative of our society these days. Problem is, people keep wondering why they keep drinking.

[Tommyh]

thank you Music



bucks,I have never seen anyone insulted in a
meeting because of any beliefs they had or did not have in the HP.

One main problem I have heard old timers talk about and I believe they are right is each ones own conception of the Great Reality or HP
the fuss comes in when we want everyone to know just what ours is,which is not that important sometimes to others.
what is really critical is we help the newcomers get their feet on the path to find theirs and a Faith that works for them.
we MUST allow them that freedom!

that was one of the greatest gifts AA`ers gave me when I was new
they allowed me the freedom to find my own conception and then follow after it

I,for one,am not interested in anyone else`s conception.How you got that conception,is of interest to me.


that way,there should be no fuss or insult what so ever

[TSDD]

Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr

This is the ego and grandiosity of someone who hasn't worked the steps. You can be sober and still be stupid.

What kind of message are we carrying when we insult someone who hasn't done the steps?

Try not to climb up the self esteem ladder using the backs of other alcoholics.

I guarantee we could spend an hour and a half talking about God in a meeting and the people who walked in Jews will walk out Jews, the Catholics will walk out Catholic, the athiests will walk out athiest, and the newcomer who is shivering and shaking will get 0 help in putting down a drink.

Stick to sharing what works "FOR YOU", don't get preachy, and from my own experience the only people who care what you think God's name is are the people who want to sell you their version of it.

[TSDD]

Originally Posted by Boleo

I have gone full-circle on the idea that one needs a God to get results out of the steps. At first I thought it was impossible to stay sober without God. Then I came to believe God was optional. Now I suspect God might not be the best form of Higher Power for an alcoholic.

Looking back at my experience, I failed to stay sober believing in a static Christian God. I got results when I started to think of God as someone (or something) more or less flexible and growing at the same rate I was growing.

The more results (promises) that I experience, the more faith I have in the Path and/or Principles as the ultimate form of a Higher Power. Such as;

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."
(page 58)

"...practice these principles in all our affairs."
(page 60)

Has anyone considered the possibiltiy that God is clever enough and loving enough to help people who don't believe in him and don't ask for his help?

Just saying..... then again there's a billion people in India that think God has an elephant head and 4 arms...

[UpperbucksAAguy]

"Has anyone considered the possibiltiy that God is clever enough and loving enough to help people who don't believe in him and don't ask for his help?"

Yes- Ebby carried this message to Bill who had great doubts that God could and would...

[DayTrader]

God couldn't POSSIBLY be that smart...........

[NYCDoglvr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr View Post
This is the ego and grandiosity of someone who hasn't worked the steps. You can be sober and still be stupid.
What kind of message are we carrying when we insult someone who hasn't done the steps?

Try not to climb up the self esteem ladder using the backs of other alcoholics.

I guarantee we could spend an hour and a half talking about God in a meeting and the people who walked in Jews will walk out Jews, the Catholics will walk out Catholic, the athiests will walk out athiest, and the newcomer who is shivering and shaking will get 0 help in putting down a drink. Stick to sharing what works "FOR YOU", don't get preachy, and from my own experience the only people who care what you think God's name is are the people who want to sell you their version of it.

Apparently I conveyed myself poorly to get such a reaction. You are correct, I should write first person because it is just an opinion.

I'm an agnostic and have been one my entire life. Where I live I never hear people talk about religion or even God in meetings... it's phrased "my higher power". It's always been my impression that this is a very private matter. I needed a higher power to work the steps and came up with GOD = group of drunks. When I dashed off the post I was thinking of recovering alcoholics I know with a lot of time who say inappropriate things that hurt others. This is the kind of person who would put down others in the program.

I've never heard anyone belittle someone in AA. Why talk about spiritual beliefs to other people? It's for working with a sponsor and doing steps. The same goes for other mental illnesses and medication. "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking...."

[muvinon]

People who simply MUST make their religious preferences (or lack of) as part of their shares rarely get my attentions. In fact, I rarely listen to ANY agenda share.

Speak from the heart......or I'll just do my grocery list.

[Db1105]

I've been sober 34 years and have not seen anyone insult anyone about their Higher Power beliefs. I've seen a few people with other issues go off about Jesus, or a few bible thumpers, but the general conscense was to just "consider the source", and move on with the meeting. I'm sure incidents of intolerance of beliefs occur, but they are not the norm. The bottom line is that the Fellowship of AA continues to help those still suffering. It will never be perfect. We are human beings with the disease of alcoholism. I was taught to see what is right with AA, instead of looking for the wrongs. AA is what I make it.

[RobbyRobot]

I've been AA since 1981, and I've heard every insult going, including of course, peoples HP or lack there of. Not sure how some others may have missed such experiences... I sure didn't...

Anyways, as for what message is being carried when insults are flying around, the answer is obvious: a lousy message, yeah?

AA tolerence works well enough for folks to enjoy freedom from alcoholism, and that has been going on ever since starting back circa 1935. Interesting thread. Tolerence. Has to be experienced to be believed and appreciated.