the LORD'S PRAYER ?

[magic]

I was wondering how many of you close your meetings
I have a home group, 20 years now, and the group
is debating about not allowing the Lord's Prayer for a
closing. We have always unofficially closed with, We
will close this meeting with the Lord's Prayer for those
who care to join. Tho many of our group now are opposed
to this, I have said that there are no rules in A>A> and
when I chair this meeting I will continue to close with that
prayer, and they can do whatever they want to. I am willing
to accept the group decision, but I don't believe the group
can rule out that prayer.
I just thought it was commonly said at many many meetings.
Can you let me know if you use it or not.

[californiacarla]

I'm new to all of this but, I have been to three different meeting as and they say it to close the meeting. As a non-religious person, I just don't recite it. (don't know it anyway) I hold hands, bow my head and repect those who do. Once a lady made a big deal that I didn't say it with them. I didn't get into her face or anyhing. Just smiled.

[phoenix]

You may feel that AA has no rules,but we do have the 12 Traditions which have stood the test of time,and have served AA very well.


These are the two traditions that cover what you want to know.


2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority — a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

This means that decisions regarding the group are made by the members of that group,who have(hopefully)considered all the implications of any decision very carefully.


4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.


And this means that the group is free to conduct itself as it's members see fit,and to make decisions regarding format and group business,so long as those decisions do not have an impact on other groups or AA as a whole.

If your group chooses not to use the Lord's Prayer it would be wise to accept that decision and to abide by it when you chair.If it troubles you too greatly,maybe you should consider exploring other meetings.

I do understand your loyalty to the group,and your feelings about the prayer.But the traditions were developed over 60 years ago,after much debate and strife over how groups should operate.They protect the group and the individual as well.

Regards,

phoenix

[Recoveree]

This is an excerpt from another newsletter,

It is from NA members, but the thoughts apply to any 12 step program.

“Then someone was asked to lead us in prayer. He started, "Our Father," and I started crying bitter tears. The last thing I wanted to hear was the Lord's Prayer. It's funny -- that prayer used to give me goose bumps. But not anymore; upon reflection, I realized that it's a Christian prayer and excludes those with other concepts of God. I much prefer the simple NA Third Step Prayer, "Many of us have said, 'take my will and my life; guide me in my Recovery; show me how to live."' It's inclusive. I abstained from reciting the Lord's Prayer with the rest of the room as tears flowed freely.�

Here are some quotes from 12 step fellowship members on a discussion board about this subject.

“Since day one in NA I have sought loopholes: seeming contradictions that were and are proof positive that I ought not seek my relief via the NA way. When you told me that NA was not a religious program, for example, then proceeded to pray to a Christian God, I became skeptical. It could have been the excuse I needed to head for the door. Only a Goddess that I have come to know, possibly unlike the "father who art in heaven," has empowered me to ingore the lies I tell myself. Open and close with the Serenity Prayer. Please don't give me another reason, however illogical, to convince me that I don't need you.�

Comments
Personally, I think using the Serenity Prayer at both ends of our meetings is the best and seems to be universal. But since our strength really IS our diversity, I would like to encourage members to show a warmth and generousity to the sometimes confused members who may be Christian and let them know we are not rejecting them with this policy. I knew a family of recovering addicts where the guy had a high pressure job in one of the unions and spent much of his time at work or in the field. I was by his house and as a very welcome guest, was running off at the mouth about some of the changes in NA at that time and ran through the thing about how you would feel if you were Jewish and got hit with a Christian prayer every time you went to a meeting. He experienced such honest confusion because to him, while he understood the prayer was Christian, it was never meant to be offensive or exclusive. To my knowledge, he never properly processed this and it could have hurt his recovery at that point, or even now. Callousness is not spiritual and my heart goes out to our semantic victims who get caught in a word crunch where improvement is intended but harm is sometimes at least a factor in the result. It would have been better to have at least an inclusive prayer statement in the form of an ip or something to help these people process and deal with the changes.

Comments
The Lords prayer is without a doubt a Christian Prayer that does not belong in a Narcotics Anonymous meeting. What's even worse is that people are taking the high road on this issue, and trying to use the tenth tradition to hide behind. This is not an outside issue as it is addressed in "What is the Narcotics Anonymous Program". We are NOT CONNECTED with any political, RELIGOUS or law enforcement groups... The 3rd step says that the right to a God of my understanding is total and without catches, and to say any religious prayer in a meeting implies an endorsement of that religion. If you feel like maybe that’s not the case, the next time you are asked to close a meeting, ask everyone to kneel down, place their forehead on the floor and chant in the style of Hindu's. I look forward to hearing the response you get when you do this.�

Comments
“My personal experience was that the group I joined when getting clean used this prayer. For me, even with years of attending church and trying to do the right thing and because of that, saying the Lord's Prayer at the end of the meeting was highly uncomfortable. I chose to join the circle in unity but declined to say the prayer aloud. I recall one meeting when a newcomer was asked to close the meeting. He apologized to the group but said, "I don't say the Lord's Prayer." I can't describe what I felt at that moment but it was something akin to relief but realized that it made no difference when he closed with an Islamic prayer and I knew that as long as I tied spirituality together with religion, I would have trouble.�

Comments
“I consider myself a spiritual person. Yet when I went through treatment we were required to go to a Christian based recovery group. Not that I have anything against people who practice those beliefs, but it bothered me that people who didn't believe that way had no place in those rooms. I simply feel that we must be careful about religious overtones in our meetings. Every addict should be able to come to a meeting without feeling they are required to either change their religion or to even have to have one. Not one person I know likes to feel left out . Let's leave religion outside the rooms.�

Comments
I have found it interesting that in a lot of other recovery programs the Lords Prayer is used a lot. When the same people come to an NA meeting they respect the wish of many not to say it as we are not a religious program. Many of us have had bad experiences with organized religion and many newcomers are grateful that the program allows them to work out their feelings without having religion forced upon them

Comments
My beliefs have changed a lot over the past 5 1/2 or so years that I have been clean. I do not go to a house of worship, or read any one religious text. NA is not a religious program it is a spiritual program and every individual is entitled to their own beliefs no matter what they are. That is why; at least the meetings that I have attended, the meetings are usually close with the serenity prayer, rather than “The Lords Prayer.�

Comments

[Recoveree]

Is AA Just for Christians?

At the beginning of every meeting of my home group, we read, "AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes." This statement makes me feel good. As a person with strong spiritual, social, and political convictions, I wouldn't have lasted a month in the program if AA had supported a political movement, economic interest, or organized religion. As it is, I've enjoyed two years of sobriety, spiritual growth, and amazing personal development in AA. I am past retirement age, but have never had a happier two years in my life.

However, there's a fly in the ointment, for me and a few other AA members I know. It's the practice of saying the Lord's Prayer at the end of our meetings. Two people have told me that they left my home group because of this. To me, insisting on the use of a prayer taken from the New Testament of the Christian Bible (Matthew 6:9-13) is a contradiction of AA's commitment never to be "allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution." As a Christian Internet source states, "Through this prayer, Jesus invites us to approach God as Father. Indeed, the Lord's Prayer has been called a summary of the Christian gospel." I am not a Christian. My spirituality does not embrace a personal God in the image of a deity of either gender.

I often attend Big Book study meetings where we read AA's assurances to alcoholics that they're free to choose their own higher power: "When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God." We also read, "To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive."
When I voice my objection to members of my home group, I'm generally told that the Lord's Prayer is universal and applies to alcoholics of all creeds and religions, which is untrue. (The people who say this usually come from Christian backgrounds.) Some have implied that I'm being rebellious or controlling - in other words, behaving like an alcoholic. One woman suggested that I bring the matter up for a group conscience vote. I'm afraid to do this because I think I know what the outcome will be, and it will make me angry, and resentment is a feeling I can't afford.
So, at the close of each meeting, I murmur my own prayer in cadence with the Lord's Prayer, loud enough for my ears but not loud enough to disturb the group. While this helps, I still feel excluded from the group during the closing prayer. A little voice in me asks, "Why do they tell me I can have my own conception of God and then force theirs on me at the end of each meeting?"
Moreover, I've often wondered why we have no Jews or Asians in our large morning meeting. Are there no Jewish or Asian alcoholics in Gainesville? Are they, too, turned off by our Christian orientation? Are we unwittingly discouraging people with nonChristian beliefs from attending AA meetings?
Recently, I did an Internet search using the words "Lord's Prayer" and "AA meetings" to see whether other recovering alcoholics shared my concern. I found more than two hundred links. In an e-journal article in Sober Times, a recovering alcoholic wrote, "Prayer at meetings, specifically the Lord's Prayer, is a long-running hot topic that crops up on a regular basis at AA meetings around the world. To many AAs, the Twelve Steps may be, as the Big Book puts it, merely 'suggested as a program of recovery,' but the Lord's Prayer is mandatory. . . . Insulting people with a prayer they do not believe in, or making them feel apart from instead of part of, is not helpful." That's exactly how I feel when I stand in the closing circle of our group and hear the Lord's Prayer recited by everyone but me.

My Internet search also revealed that many Jews are troubled by AA's use of the Lord's Prayer. A website sponsored by Jewish Alcoholics, Chemically Dependent Persons, and Significant Others (JACS) contained an article by Rabbi Steven Morris describing his work with Jewish alcoholics. He says that he's often asked, "Rabbi, can I say the Lord's Prayer at the end of an AA meeting?" Rabbi Morris wrote, "The struggle for an answer has been a major focus of my rabbinical studies these last two years." Obviously, I have company in my concern.
In another Internet article, reprinted from the Journal of Reform Judaism, a now-deceased alcoholic rabbi described how he requested the Central Committee of American Rabbis to address this issue in the mid-1980s. "The response of the committee was that the profound Christian associations of this prayer - particularly because it was prescribed by the founder of that faith - makes its use unacceptable to Jews." A member of the committee advised, "As it is recited at the conclusion of the meeting, there is really no reason to participate. One can stand in silence, and I am sure that this would be respected and understood."

An alcoholic who covered the Civil Rights movement in the sixties as a reporter, recently conducted an informal Internet survey of AA members and groups around the world, asking them to answer the questions: "What prayers do you use at your meetings?" and "Why?" E-mail responses came from sober Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Shintoists, Native Americans, atheists, and pagans from North America, Europe, Australia, Asia, and Africa. The responses indicated that most groups in nonChristian parts of the world, particularly India and Asian countries, use the Serenity Prayer to close their meetings. A recovering alcoholic in Bangalore, India, reported that the Serenity Prayer has been translated into eight Indian languages and is used in most Alcoholics Anonymous meetings attended by Hindus and Buddhists. Some Japanese language groups modify the Serenity Prayer to omit the word "God." Even in some primarily Christian countries like Australia and New Zealand, the Serenity Prayer is more common than the Lord's Prayer. Other closing recitations reported in the survey were the Promises and AA's Declaration of Responsibility. Native American groups often use a prayer to the Great Spirit.

If AAs are truly compassionate and accepting, why do they insist on closing meetings with a prayer to a God some of us don't believe in? If I'm encouraged to find a God of my own understanding, why am I asked to pray to theirs? Words are important. If we mean what we say at the beginning of our meetings - "AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution" - we should honor these words in the way we close our meetings.

Barb C.
Gainesville, Florida

© AA Grapevine, Inc. 2003

[magic]

Thanks for all your responses. I appreciate them all. I do
believe that the group conciense is the final say, and I
will abide by that. I however still love the Lord's Prayer, and
I am not any particular religion, in fact I don't like religion.
I like A>A> and I don't think of that prayer as a particular
religion, although I see now that many people do. I will
vote how I feel and see how it goes. But thanks for
letting me hear how other people feel, because as I said
this has never been an issue in our meeting, for 20 years
I have gone there, and so now that it is, I need to take heed,
and I certainly don't want to drive anyone out. Things change
meetings change and I have been fortunate enough to change
with them. I keep coming back and I am sure I will continue to
do so whether I hear that prayer in the meeting or not.
Thanks again everyone, stay sober.

[Mogqua]

I have gone to meetings where the word, God is not received well at all. They will cut it out of the third step prayer and the serenity prayer and "jump" on anyone that shares God as part of their recovery. There are other prayers such as the 11th step prayer which is considered to be Catholic first, and then Christian. The "Lord's Prayer" does not pray to the Christ but to the Father. Therefore, it shouldn't matter as long you are of any Monolithic God based religion. But a Christian is the one that should have a problem with it since Christ instructs that it should be said after retiring in your own closet. (in private) and never as a vain chant of pagans. While I am of the Monolithic God Belief. I do understand that there are others that are not and I wouldn't want to do anything to limit their membership and therefore their desire to recover from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. However, these people really are just showing us that they have prejudices and contempts to work on first before they can truly recover. They wish to strike down the messenger so they won't have to listen to the message.
Contempt PRIOR to investigation will keep us in everlasting darkness. Ask not what offends them by these prayers but what the prayers honestly mean to them in aiding their recovery. :okay: :shades2:

[magic]

ty yes it seems that the sole purpose of A>A> is sometimes
lost in the shuffle, but that is how it works and that is how
people work on their own character. I just have to go along
with the steps and let it all go. That is my choice, but I am
so glad I have learned (SOME) patience and tolerance it
makes it all so much clearer. Thank you for your response.

[AvieG]

The Lords Prayer is never used to close meeting here in the UK. We use theSerenity Prayer in closing, and the chair usually says, "Would all who care to join me in the serenity prayer, using the word GOD as you each understnd it"

Some meetings stand, not all hold hands, but some do. Other meetings don't stand, just remain seated.

Other meetings say 'Keep coming back, it works if you work it' after the prayer, which many members DON'T like, but I do like it.

I personally am happy to go along with whatever each group does, so long as the FULL undiluted AA message is being passed INCLUDING the GOD stuff!!!

NO GOD - NO PEACE
KNOW GOD - KNOW PEACE

And I am NOT a religous nut by any means. The only way I could accept GOD was when someone said GOD= Group Of Drunks.