What the heck is happening - Al-Anons sponsoring Alcoholics???

[ICantHeCan]

I was recently at a convention where many Al-Anon members, for lack of a better word, proclaimed that they were and are capable of sponsoring alcoholics because they utilize the Big Book while sponsoring the alcoholic/s.

I find this rather disconcerting. While I don't have the media (literature or cd) readily handy to quote from at the moment, I seem to recall Bill W. speaking to the idea of a member from another 12 step program (take your pick) trying to work with an alcoholic or vice-versa. In summary he inferred that it would be nearly an impossible arrangement because the only one who can truly relate to how an alcoholic thinks or feels (or sometimes the lack of either) is another alcoholic.

Additionally, a few months ago I listened to a CD of Lois W. She spoke to why she and Anne B. founded AFG -- to help families and friends of the alcoholic. They would work/cooperate with Bill and the RAs to identify the families and friends that were in need of Al-Anon 12 step work which I believe is touched upon in Al-anon's 5th tradition including cooperation in their 6th tradition.

Nowadays though, its like a lot of Al-anon members just want to 12 step the alcoholic rather than the family or friends... a recipe for that a struggling new RA. Instead of cooperating with RAs to identify families and friends that the RAs are working with, many Al-Anons are going in to AA meetings to 12 step the alcoholic. (In the back of my head I keep wondering "an Al-Anon slip[?]" especially after hearing Lois' story and why the two groups began.)

Don't get me wrong either..., if an RA after working the steps with another RA, sees the need in their life to incorporate another 12 step program such as Al-Anon, CODA, etc. into their lives, by all means they should do so and with the help of a sponsor from that chosen program but not before they have worked the 12 steps of AA with another RA.

Enuff said...

[ncgirl]

We Alanons are supposed to be focusing on ourselves, not the alcoholic. Did you say anything when you heard these people say what you reported? This is NOT Alanon, and not approved Alanon anything. We have enough issues keeping our own side of the street clean.

NC Girl

[ICantHeCan]

Originally Posted by ncgirl

We Alanons are supposed to be focusing on ourselves, not the alcoholic. Did you say anything when you heard these people say what you reported? This is NOT Alanon, and not approved Alanon anything. We have enough issues keeping our own side of the street clean.

NC Girl

Yes, I had plenty to say ncgirl -- pretty much what I have said here. Please believe me though I also understand that not ALL Alanons are 12 stepping alcoholics. As I said previously, its rather disconcerting and dangerous for all concerned.

[sailorjohn]

This is something outside my experience, and I am a member of both groups, attend meetings of both groups at the same location on different days.

We have my Alanon group members attend the open AA meting at the end of the month, and folks socialize on the outside, AA with Alanon and vice versa, but that's about the limit I've ever seen.

Wonder how a non-alcoholic-Alanon member or not-could share their esh with an alcoholic?

A last thought, a non-alcoholic Alanon member has absolutely no business attending a closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by ICantHeCan

... I seem to recall Bill W. speaking to the idea of a member from another 12 step program (take your pick) trying to work with an alcoholic or vice-versa...

A.A. History – Problems Other Than Alcohol

[CarolD]

Welcome to SR.....

I relocated your thread to our Alcoholism 12
Step Support Forums as it is clearly an AA topic.

I've never seen this happen I joined AA in '84.
Prior to that I was in Al anon for 10 years.

[bballdad]

I know of a open AA group who has over eaters,alkies,food addicts and addicts who attend.

everyone of them are capable and do in fact sponsor anyone who wants to have a Spiritual Experience by taking the 12 steps as outlined in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.Men sponsor women,and sometimes the women sponsor men.

they focus on the solution only and they do great work.Best and most powerful AA meeting I ever attended.My present sponsor is the local founder of that group.


from the Big Book,1st edition
And besides, we are sure that our way of living has
its advantages for all.

that group takes that line very serious

[Music]

Originally Posted by ICantHeCan

I was recently at a convention where many Al-Anon members, for lack of a better word, proclaimed that they were and are capable of sponsoring alcoholics because they utilize the Big Book while sponsoring the alcoholic/s.

These people can "proclaim" anything they want but I contend that no one can sponsor an alcoholic except another alcoholic. Experience, strength and hope. Non-alcoholics can't share what another alcoholic can share. They haven't lived it.

[freya]

I don't exactly know how to say this because it's very weird, and I am fully aware of the fact that it's very weird...but it's also the truth and it's very much related to this topic so here goes:

I (Al Anon since 1/27/04) have a sponsee who is an AA woman who has been sober about 80% as many years as I have been alive. She heard me share my story at a conference and immediately afterward asked me to be her sponsor. I thought she was joking. She wasn't. She said that, based on what I had said about how I work my program and what was happening for me spiritually in my program, she really felt drawn to me and that I could help her. This woman is very connected spiritually and works an amazing program...she is pretty much considered to be like an AA spiritual guru around here......So, when she asked me, it was really kinda mind-blowing to me. I mean, it was one of those things like, imagine, the Pope suddenly phoning you up out of the blue and asking you to be his spiritual advisor: On the one hand, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but, on the other hand, "No" is very clearly not an option.

So, I said "Yes," because, even though I felt totally inadequate to the task, very intimidated, and pretty much scared to death of making a fool of myself, I also had recently made a very definite commitment to going where HP leads me and, obviously, that is going to mean some pretty big stretching for me and my doing some things that I might not necessarily "understand" how they're going to work out.

And it is working out. Actually, in my mind I think of it more like a mutual 11th Step sponsorship kinda thing, because it's more like when we talk we really do seem to be thinking about and working on spiritual matters that compliment and challenge each other in very productive ways......So, it seems to be going well...but really, I feel very strongly that it is all about HP, not about me, like I just show up pretty much praying desperately that I don't make a total *ss of myself, and, somehow, HP seems to just make good stuff happen for both of us....and I am learning/growing a lot from it...and she says that she is, too, so I'm going to believe her.

Also, as I've said elsewhere, the person who acts as my "sponsor" is also AA....It just happened that way because I couldn't find an Al Anon sponsor, and I started hanging with this woman, and we ended up helping each other through some hard stuff a few years back. So, it just grew into this sponsorship-type relationship that is really good for and important to me.

So anyways, all that being said, because I do attend a lot of open AA meetings, I have had several young, relatively new-to-AA women also ask me to sponsor them...and that I absolutely will not do. I am just way too aware of the fact that I really cannot "get" the compulsion to drink like another alcoholic can.......and even when I have double-winner Al Anon sponsees (which, at this point, most of my Al Anon sponsees are), I am pretty adamant about their having and being in close contact with their AA sponsors, especially if there are triggering things going on in their lives.

In general, I guess the thing (aside from the not "getting" the compulsion to drink, which is, in my mind, an insurmountable problem to begin with) that really raises a red-flag in my mind about Al Anons sponsoring AAs as some kind of general practice is the whole codependent give-me-an-alcoholic-to-control-and-save issue. I mean, that sh*t is just sick, and to have it potentially permeating the sponsor/sponsee relationship is just too dangerous and risky. Also, I do have to say that even in cases that I know where there are very, very codependent AAs (not in Al Anon and not working on their codependency issues) sponsoring others AAs I have seen some very weird, enabling and unhealthy sh*t going on.....

......So, yeah, as a general rule, I think it is just probably not a real bright idea to have anyone with untreated codependency issues around relatively newly sober As in any capacity at all.

freya

[Ago]

of course Al-anoners are more qualified to run our program then we are, they are more qualified to run every aspect of our lives then we are, that's the nature of codependency, is to run other peoples lives and think they know better, I don't know why that should be a surprise, that's like drunk people all know how to quit drinking and aren't afraid to share their vast knowledge about that either. I mean remember the threads about Naxa whatever? 5 drunk guys down to 50 "units" a week telling us all how to get sober a few months ago?

That's what sick people do is run other peoples lives when their own is unmanageable, myself and I suspect every person who reads this has some experience with that at some point in their lives.

"Non-members" by their very nature of neither being sober nor having a desire to stop drinking sponsoring members of Alcoholics Anonymous? Someone who drinks sponsoring someone trying to be sober? who would be so ill as to do that, play God with others lives? Trying to pass along something they don't have and never did?

It's one thing for members of alanon to sponsor sober members of AA in Alanon but seriously, any non member of AA that started sponsoring alcoholics in AA would literally be insane by definition, yes? especially one attending a program to work on their issues with codependency which by definition is trying to control alcoholics?

any group of ALCOHOLICS gathered together can call themselves a meeting of alcoholics anonymous PROVIDED THEY HAVE NO OTHER AFFILIATION.

This is why God invented closed meetings.

If it isn't by alcoholics, for alcoholics, it isn't AA.

Period

I am not saying it shouldn't be done OUTSIDE AA, but it aint AA if it aint alcoholics, read the traditions.

[Music]

When I made my comment above, I was thinking about sponsoring in the most literal sence, which in my mind means taking a recently wet alcoholic, getting him started in AA with meetings, f2f discussions about the steps, working the steps together, etc. Having said that, I do realize that a sober alcoholic, which for the purpose of this discussion would be someone with several years in AA, could feel the need for guidance in a particular area such as spirituality, health, marriage or relationships in general. In that case, he may feel the need to talk to someone with expertise in a special field such as a pastor, priest, relationship counselor, etc. I suppose there are alcoholics who feel the need to go to Al-anon who may have an Al-anon sponsor as well as an AA sponsor but care should be taken not to over step boundaries and responsibility. When it comes to sponsoring someone, I tend to limit myself to talking about what happend, what it was like, and what's happening now. In other words, if I don't have the experience, I don't/can't share. I will recommend to the person to seek out a more qualified person for the simple reason that I can't share what I don't have, or hanen't experienced. In short, if an alcoholic were to ask an Al-anon to sponsor him in a particular area for a particular reason, I can understand the need but care should be taken on both sides to realize limitations.

[bballdad]

my post refers to sponsoring outside of AA
at that meeting only AA members share,the rest listen.

[jimhere]

I know this woman who I am pretty sure isn't alcoholic, although she claims that she is.

She is a "double-winner" (I don't care for that term) and goes to Al-Anon as well as AA meetings. I don't think that she is alcoholic, I think that she loves alcoholics. Dad was, both husbands, current boyfriend, etc. I think she loves to be around us, craves that like we crave a drink.

But she has never been able to successfully sponsor a woman alcoholic. And has never been able to be successfully sponsored in AA by a woman alcoholic. Which is why I think what I think. She comes to my home group meeting, which is closed and the meeting format allows for considerations. I am considering posing this question to her "Could it be that you are not alcoholic? Could it be that you just love alcoholics and that you are doing a disservice to AA, to yourself, and the alcoholic women in AA that you attempt to sponsor by misleading yourself about the true nature of your malady?"
Jim

[Ago]

Originally Posted by bballdad

I know of a open AA group who has over eaters,alkies,food addicts and addicts who attend.

everyone of them are capable and do in fact sponsor anyone who wants to have a Spiritual Experience by taking the 12 steps as outlined in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.Men sponsor women,and sometimes the women sponsor men.

they focus on the solution only and they do great work.Best and most powerful AA meeting I ever attended.My present sponsor is the local founder of that group.


from the Big Book,1st edition
And besides, we are sure that our way of living has
its advantages for all.

that group takes that line very serious

Of course they focus on the solution, since they don't have the same problem, AA groupies, overeaters, addicts, and food addicts sponsoring alcoholics out the Big Book?

It all sounds very nice, it isn't AA though, since it isn't alcoholics

This thread makes me think of something Bill Murray said once:

Dr. Peter Venkman: This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.
Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?
Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath-of-God type stuff.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.
Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling.
Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes...
Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria.

YouTube - Biblical Proportions

[bballdad]

sure it is AA since it is a open meeting and only aa`s share on the solution
you contradict yourself ago

[Ago]

Originally Posted by bballdad

sure it is AA since it is a open meeting and only aa`s share on the solution
you contradict yourself ago

Maybe

you write overeaters, addicts and food addicts attend and sponsor others out of the BB and alcoholics sponsor non alcoholics

everyone of them are capable and do in fact sponsor anyone who wants to have a Spiritual Experience by taking the 12 steps as outlined in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.Men sponsor women,and sometimes the women sponsor men.

How is non alcoholics sponsoring other non-alcoholics and alcoholics AA? How is Alcoholics sponsoring non alcoholics AA?

Did I not get the memo that AA isn't for alcoholics any more? That our primary purpose changed from carrying the message to the alcoholic that still suffers? That to be a member you have to be an alcoholic with a desire to stop drinking?

I'm not saying it's bad, I'm sure it's a good thing

It's just not AA, the way I understand AA which is by alcoholics FOR alcoholics

[Pinkcuda]

I thought there was a misconception that open meetings were for anyone and the fact that is still an "Alcoholics Anonymous" meeting is completley disregarded. Therefore it's a free for all where everybody shares on whatever they want.
That's my experience.

[Cubile75]

My best friend in the universe, besides my wife, both of which are non alcoholic...

My friend is in a bible study group. It is amazing the parallels between his program and mine. We have incredible discussions about powerlessness and self will and character defects and on and on. In a sense, I guess, we sponsor each other. In fact along these lines we get more into it than I do with my own AA sponsor.

But the closest he can get to the obsession with and compulsion to drink alcohol is with his relationship to ice cream.



Mark

[ElegantlyWasted]

Sounds like very dangerous ground to me...
"Nowadays though, its like a lot of Al-anon members just want to 12 step the alcoholic rather than the family or friends... a recipe for that a struggling new RA."

My take is that it could work with the
right people, there is too much room for unintentional passive
aggressive BS happening. Especially when I factor in some of the behavior I've seen from people w considerable dry aa time that sponsor and are loose with how they choose how to mentor ees. People who are serious and get how to use aa ultimatly end up in the right cilque, yet early on most people are in discovery mode for a while and are all over the map as to what is really going on. Would an Alanon member be comfortable with an alkie early in recovery sponsoring them??? They shouldn't if they are. I like the idea of general cross pollination at respective open meetings though.

[sailorjohn]

In Michigan, and I could be wrong as I haven't attended every AA meeting in the state, 'open' meetings are speaker meetings. Guy gets up and tells his story, no 'shares', everyone is welcome to attend.

Closed meetings are what the name implies, alcoholics, or those that possibly only think they have a drinking problem.

Not overeaters, relationship addicts, codependents.

Just me, I was definitely a typical stubborn alcoholic, I would probably have used anything to continue to justify my drinking, dealing with someone that didn't have a drinking problem when I was early in recovery, 'suggesting' to me what I might do to solve my drinking problem might have been enough to justify, in my sick alcoholic mind, continuing on the path I was on.

While the solution the 12 step programs offer might be almost, identical, the problem is definitely not, and I think sharing the experience is absolutely vital early in recovery, and non-alcoholics, as much as they might know, simply don't have that experience.

[barb dwyer]

I met someone this very summer who said she was sponsored by a 'black belt al-anon'.
A term I find offensive, in fact.

While I kept my opinions to myself -
after spending the summer up here, with OUR community,
she got herself an alcoholic sponsor.

And is now returning to HER community
with an alcoholic sponsor.
I think she's far better off.

These things work out, but yeah, I'm not real hip with that idea, either.

[AlwaysGrowing]

WHO CARES.. It is their business not yours. The phrase 'If you want what we have and are willing to go to any lengths to get it" comes to mind. Maybe that Alanon member has something others want..

Now it might be tough for a true Alanon to relate to and 12 step someone in the jails suffering but the steps are to me God following//seeking.

What are you doing to serve within that convention? Serve others not your own 'View Of'.

AW
(AA Old Timer)

[Ago]

This is probably one of the most disturbing threads I think I have ever read on SR, I come from a hippy dippy granola eating left wing area where everything under the sun takes place, in and out of AA, and as alcoholics, we argue, that's what we do, we splinter into groups, "the trudgers", North marin, Southern Marin, Hardliners, etc.

However, we are ALL alcoholics though and we have one thing on which we ABSOLUTELY agree

To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

BB 1st ed and AA's 12 traditions

I have been coming here for awhile, watching Pink, Jim, Steve, Trucker etc talk about AA and I've been like waaa waa waaa in my mind, you know the noise the parents make on Peanuts? I have been amused thinking they were "viewing with alarm for the good of AA" because in my experience while every meeting I have ever been to hasn't always been a good meeting, and I've even been to a few horrific meetings, it was still AA

What I'm reading about here in this thread by definition literally isn't AA

It's very upsetting actually to me

5.) Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

A line we take VERY seriously where I am from, I literally didn't believe the rhetoric I have been reading here about that being in danger since I have never seen it with my own eyes....now I have, and I don't like it.

[barb dwyer]

Serve others not your own 'View Of'.

I was asked for *my view of*.

thanks for sharing!

[AlwaysGrowing]

Many people are disturbed in this world. The two guys who went on a killing spree are humans but have issues.

I may not agree with an Alanon person(s) but who am I to play God and say I know better. I do what I can do and spread the word but beating the BB into the heads of an Alanon is not MY job. My job is to carry the message as Ago stated above. Maybe one day they will say I did it right, or I screwed it up.. Not for me to judge. I 'do' but not for me to hold that thought if you know what I mean.