As Bill Sees It-Time Versus Money

[CarolD]

*~*~*~*~*^As Bill Sees It^*~*~*~*~*

Time Versus Money

Our attitude toward the giving of time when compared with our attitude toward giving money presents an interesting contrast. We give a lot of our time to A.A. activities for our own protection and growth, but also for the sake of our groups, our areas, A.A. as a whole, and, above all, the newcomer. Translated into terms of money, these collective sacrifices would add up to a huge sum.
But when it comes to the actual spending of cash, particularly for A.A. service overhead, many of us are apt to turn a bit reluctant. We think of the loss of all that earning power in our drinking years, of those sums we might have laid by for emergencies or for education of the kids.
In recent years, this attitude is everywhere on the decline; it quickly disappears when the real need for a given A.A. service becomes clear. Donors can seldom see what the exact result has been. They well know, however, that countless thousands of other alcoholics and their families are being helped.


TWELVE CONCEPTS, pp. 64-65
Copyright AAWS

[jimhere]

Sounds like our area assembly a couple of weeks ago. All the motions were about money. The delegate was pandering for money on behalf of G.$.O. and our area treasurer was doing the same on behalf of the area. Group contributions are down he says and he made a pitch for the groups to contribute money to the area. He said that when your group sends money to the area or G.$.O., it helps bring new members to the group.

I told him that our group just takes its message in the local detoxes and that we don't need a membership drive. Our good friend Mr. Whiskey brings new prospects. We just need to be able to offer them something besides a meeting and don't drink no matter what when they get to us.
Jim

[FightingIrish]

I am curious about this skepticism about GSO needing money. All non-profits need to raise money, if only from their own "members". How or why should A.A. be any different? Is there a scenario under which A.A. could raise money yet not draw such ire? What would that look like?

As someone who has worked in the philanthropy arena my entire career, it amazes me that A.A. has been able to maintain any kind of formal central service structure at all. The yearly variation in private support must be drastic, yet they can't keep a large reserve. How do they know if they're going to be able to pay their employees, or keep renting the office?

[navysteve]

Here is one reason:

German AA "crime"

In 1993, following the disastrous legal action by AAWS concerning the circle and triangle, the General Service Conference formed an Ad Hoc Committee to look into how best to protect our trademarks and copyrights and stay within the Traditions. This Committee was to report back to the 1994 Conference with their recommendations. The Committee met and, unable to come to a consensus within that Committee, they reported back to the Conference with a recommendation that the Conference allow the entire Fellowship to discuss the issue for a period of two years, to allow a general discussion among the the Fellowshop, and arrive at an informed opinion of what measures should be taken in matters of protecting the trademarks and copyrights. In the meantime AAWS formulated what they called a new policy concerning litigation. That policy, to paraphrase, was that AAWS would enter into litigation only after all other avenues had been exhausted. A "Floor Action" was introduced asking the Conference to accept the "new" AAWS policy on litigation. This "Floor Action" was voted on by the 1994 Conference and was rejected by a vote of 80 some odd opposed and 30 some odd in favor. In spite of the better than two-thirds rejection by the Conference, the "new" AAWS policy on litigation is still in effect.

I have no problem throwing a buck in the basket, but I have a problem when my voice isn't listened to. I was sober when all this went down and it pissed me off. I drifted away from AA for years and crap like this was central to my decision to get away. I have since come to believe that I must fix AA from within. Does that sound a bit egotistical? No more so than the balls it took GSO to NOT liten to the wishes of the fellowship!

Question GSO about money?

Every damn penny!
The German lawsuit was in response to folks in Germany printing their own Big Book- the translated ones given to them by GSO were horrible. Here is a website that addresses some of the issues with the book:

AA Corps Sue Member

The 11 chapters contain the word "spiritual" 108 times in the multilith manuscript and 106 times in the 3rd Edition. The German GSO translation of 1983 contains the word "spiritual" only eight times. The result of anti-spiritual efforts, it was mostly replaced by "seelisch -- psychological" and/or by "geistig -- intellectual."

Having been to AA meetings in Eastern Europe I noticed that God was not talked about, no prayers at the meetings were said- I wonder if it was the culture or the translation of the books from New York?

[navysteve]

In Mexico many groups became aware that their Service Structure,
Central Mexicana, was getting too far into money, property, and
authority. They were operating too much like a business. The Big Book
cost was too high for most members to afford. So 1,500 groups broke
away and formed a new Service Structure, Seccion Mexico (Section
Mexico), which was to grow to nearly 2,500 groups in the next 10
years.
This new service structure utilized our 36 spiritual
principles to the extent that they were intended. Even their
Conferences were completely paid for by the "voluntary contributions
of the groups" and admission was free ("no dues or fees"). Section
Mexico printed and sold the Big Book at cost and for this Section
Mexico has been punished and were to suffer greatly from the very
fellowship they loved.
In Mexico copyright violations are criminal and not civil.
Also in Mexico any anonymous book was only protected for 50 years
after publication. Even if our big book would not have been public
domain due to publication without copyright notice in January 1939,
any protection would have expired in Mexico no later than 1989.
Mysteriously a name, Wyne Parks, appeared from our GSO/AAWS as author
of the Big Book. Also there was a notarized letter from GSO giving
permission to Central Mexicana to take whatever actions they wish to
protect their right to be the sole distributor of the Big Book. Then
our trusted servants lied to the fellowship by stating it was an
internal problem in Mexico and they had nothing to do with it.
Section Mexico decided to follow our spiritual principles and not
fight the criminal action. Warranty Five of Concept Twelve: "That no
Conference action ever be personally punitive or an incitement to
public controversy." Also from Warranty Five: "Those early
Conferences believed that the power to sue would be a dangerous thing
for us to possess. It was recognized that a public lawsuit is a
public controversy, something in which our Tradition says we may not
engage."
The result of the criminal lawsuit besides having the Federal Police
raid their AA offices and confiscate all their literature and books
on July 4th, 1994, was the enormous cost taken away from 12-Step
work: two million Mexican Peso's, according to a letter of 9/16/95
from Dr. Guzman, Chairman of the Mexican AA GSB. Also AA members had
our treasured anonymity broken against their will, and tragically one
member of the Service Board (Xavier) was even sentenced to one year
in jail.


GSO helped send people to jail over money. They were selling the Big Book at cost

[FightingIrish]

Hmm...thanks for the answer. Didn't know about that.

In German, "Seele" means "Soul" and "Geist" means "Spirit".

[navysteve]

seelisch has to do with psychology my friend. The root seele is soul.

Geist does not translate very clearly into English. It is often associated with the mind, as well as the spirit

[CarolD]

Everytime I have attended a state Assembly
in Fl. and Ga.
I've been given a print out of all groups
and the ammmount they send off.

Many groups give zero...it's not mandatory.
Their vote counts equally with those who do.

Certainly there are appeals to delegates to
ask their groups to give. Why not?

Each organization I've ever belonged to
needs financial assistance to futher their goals.

"The Lord Loves A Cheerful Giver"

Yes I am aware of the germany and Mexico
legal happenings. I don't think those people
are now in GSO positions.

[jimhere]

no, those people aren't involved anymore Carol. But ask them about it and they will either deny it happened or whitewash it. To this day, G.$.O won't directly acknowledge the Mexican and German litigations.

Our group has decided to withdraw from the service structure, except a local, grassroots level. We don't contribute to the district, the area, or to GSO. Won't don't buy literature from AAWS. We buy our books either from Anonymous Press or from second-hand stores and give them away. We do our work in the jail and in the hospitals. We don't even pass the hat at our meeting. Our group is supported entirely through the voluntary contributions of its own members and we have plenty of money to pay our way. We trust that if there is a need, God will provide through the spirit of trusting God through the Seventh Tradition.
Jim

[CarolD]

Jim...
When when you brought up your experience with
your assembly I decided to share mine.

Considering your stance .on GSO....often expressed here
and your groups decision to not support the
service structure ....I was surprised you attended area.

If y'all don't have an elected GSR ...how do you vote
in Assemblies?
Of course any AA member may attend if they are interested.

[Ago]

"The Lord Loves A Cheerful Giver"

This Lord?

there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!

So do The IRS, Insurance Companies, Hara Krishna's and Jehovah's Witnesses, that don't make it right

Thankfully "The Lord" aint part of AA and never will be

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by CarolD

Jim...
When when you brought up your experience with
your assembly I decided to share mine.

Considering your stance .on GSO....often expressed here
and your groups decision to not support the
service structure ....I was surprised you attended area.

If y'all don't have an elected GSR ...how do you vote
in Assemblies?
Of course any AA member may attend if they are interested.

We had decided that we would withdraw after the assembly. Up to this year's assembly we did have a GSR.

Plus, my group proposed a consideration to the area concerning the high cost of our assemblies in recent years. I was given a few minutes at the mic during host committee bids for future assemblies to give this consideration. Although it was met with favorable response by a few, we have no stake in the outcome at this point and do not really look for any changes to be happening anytime soon. Too many are attached to the "way we've always done it."

We are now officially withdrawn from the service structure.

[CarolD]

Ago....
My Lord is with me daily and
Yes that includes my AA committment.

So do The IRS, Insurance Companies, Hara Krishna's and Jehovah's Witnesses,

I have no opinion on the above groups
nor do I speak for AA when I share.

[CarolD]

Thanks Jim for clarifying the situation.
I'm glad you had the opportunity to express your concerns.

...On a local level I'm getting ready to bring
up unnecessary spending at our GC.
I think we as a group need to cut back the "frills"
and get re centered on our primary purpose.
I don't expect I'll get a standing ovation.

[jimhere]

Our big concern is that the area is getting so large both area and population wise that we must hold our assemblies in large, expensive venues. The cost of being in service is become beyond the reach of some. This issue is what led to the forming of Seccion Mexico. Now we aren't looking at forming a whole new structure, but we believe that there are simple, spiritual solutions to this problem. Earlier this year myself and several other members were looking at drafting a motion that would petition the Conference for the creation of a new delegate area. Actually, we need at least two more new areas. But after a past delegate friend of mine informed me that the conference would not be favorable to the creation of any new delegate areas because it would upset the balance of their committees, I withdrew from that ad-hoc committee. This is an attitude that runs through out our service structure and I no longer wish to fight it. I will say one thing though-I thought the trustees and the delegates served us and it isn't them that decides what is best for the fellowship.

You mention frills Carol. Our assemblies are three day affairs. Basically they are round-ups with a business meeting held on Saturday. Basic registration fee (I thought we had no dues or fees) is $20. That in itself isn't a problem. But add in $30 for Saturday night dinner, $22 for Saturday lunch, $22 for Sunday "spiritual" breakfast, $7 for ice-cream social and then travel and lodging and it becomes another story. Many small groups can't afford to fund their G.S.R.'s, let alone a G.S.R. and an alternate G.S.R.

One of the area committee pointed out to me that groups and individuals don't HAVE to pay for the frills. We were aware of that, but that really isn't the issue. The issue is what about those that want to but can't? What we have done is to inadvertently create a second class of trusted servants, which is direct contradiction of Concept IV, which addresses our spiritual right of participation. Several principles are badly bent here, if not broken: Tradition Three: "Nor ought membership ever depend on money and conformity," Tradition Six, problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us from our primary spiritual aim, and Tradition Seven, which is really about trusting that if there is a need, God will provide.

We have a vision of smaller, local assemblies held in high school gyms. These would be one day affairs strictly devoted to business. Food could be either potluck or buffet-style with a contribution can. The whole affair would free and it would be supported by passing the hat. This is how they do it in Seccion Mexico and it works.

On a local level, our group wrote a motion that did away with funding the district's annual Gratitude dinner with Seventh Tradition monies contributed by the groups. Surprisingly the motion passed, but then a committee was formed to put together a Gratitude Dinner. Instead of keeping it simple by renting a hall, inviting the groups to contribute turkeys and hams and the rest of the food be potluck and then passing the hat to support the deal, they made it way complicated. Instead of trusting God, there was a spirit of fear that there wouldn't be enough and that there wouldn't be a dinner this year. They organized fund raisers and printed tickets with three different prices. Not surprisingly, the deal fell through and this year there won't be a Gratitude Dinner and some blame my group.

They have only their own lack of faith and ignorance of spiritual principles to blame. Instead of a Fellowship Of The Spirit we have became a fellowship of fear.
Jim

[jimhere]

Here is a point I forgot to mention.

Over the last several years our area has worked towards making service more accessible for the deaf to participate in, to the point of creating an area accessibilities standing committee. ASL is now provided at our assemblies if there is a need.

At last year's assembly there was a large contingent of deaf GSR's. This year none of them were present. Down in the southwestern part of the state, about two hundred miles from where this yea's assembly was held, there is treatment center that specializes in serving the deaf alcoholic and addict. This is the only facility of its kind in the country that I am aware of and all of the deaf GSR's, with the exception of one are from this part of the state.

Someone asked where all the deaf GSR's were. The area chair said that their groups couldn't afford to fund them.
Jim

[navysteve]

Our little groups rent is 120 every 6 months, our average take is 5 dollars per week. Our DCM wanted to know why we couldn't be more supportive??????

Sigh...

[bballdad]

Over in Germany in the 1990`s,some people took it upon themselves to print their own Big Books,and distribute them to Germans.Soon after that,they began distrusting them to a few other Countries.
Each country is given a license to publish the Big Book in it`s own language.Those Germans Books was printed outside the German license,and there for,illegally done.They had their say in court and lost.That simple.If memory serves me correctly,they may have printed a few in other languages,which was also illegal.
Since the beginning of AA,things have progressed and grown.
AA did what it thought was necessary to protect the Society and it`s material.The criminals should have known they would get caught,but ain`t it just like a alkie to think they are different?

As far as a group supporting the local Inter Group,District,Area or GSO,if my group did not support them,I would find a group who did.I will not put much support into a isolated group,with attendance or money.

[bballdad]

couple questions for you AGO

how do you know?
or
is that what you would like to believe?
or
is that just your opinion?

Originally Posted by Ago

This Lord?



So do The IRS, Insurance Companies, Hara Krishna's and Jehovah's Witnesses, that don't make it right

Thankfully "The Lord" aint part of AA and never will be

[Rob B]

I'm a big fan of forming opinions based on facts: Anyone interested in litiagation by GSO should check out this link:

Why Study A.A. History? - Alcoholism

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by bballdad

Over in Germany in the 1990`s,some people took it upon themselves to print their own Big Books,and distribute them to Germans.Soon after that,they began distrusting them to a few other Countries.
Each country is given a license to publish the Big Book in it`s own language.Those Germans Books was printed outside the German license,and there for,illegally done.They had their say in court and lost.That simple.If memory serves me correctly,they may have printed a few in other languages,which was also illegal.
Since the beginning of AA,things have progressed and grown.
AA did what it thought was necessary to protect the Society and it`s material.The criminals should have known they would get caught,but ain`t it just like a alkie to think they are different?

As far as a group supporting the local Inter Group,District,Area or GSO,if my group did not support them,I would find a group who did.I will not put much support into a isolated group,with attendance or money.

Question is why was G.S.O. putting any interest in the legal proceedings at all? Legal or not isn't the question. Ethical or not isn't the question. Like the early members told Bill, we have got operate on something a little better than ethics.

Legal rights notwithstanding, we had no business being involved in any kind of punitive litigation trying to retain property that brought us into public controversy and broke member's anonymity. These actions were in direct contradiction of Warranty Five of Concept XII: "That no Conference action ever be personally punitive or an incitement to public controversy." The fact that legal advice was supplied to both the Mexican and German GSO's by attornies kept on retainer (with monies contributed by the groups through the Seventh Tradition at GSO for just such purposes) is one of the big reasons why our group withdrew from the service structure.

We do support our local Central Office because it is our clearinghouse for Twelfth-Step work. And we don't attempt individual member's participation in the service structure. One of our members is the H & I Committee Chair at the district and another is the CPC Committee Chair. We don't send a GSR however or participate in any area service that we feel serves no purpose.

And we don't care about appealing to the masses. We don't want your money. In fact we won't let you give it to us. When you are at our meeting, you are our guest and we don't believe in letting our guests support us. If you are at my house for dinner, you are my guest and I wouldn't ask you to help pay for the meal and coffee would I? And when you are at my home group, you are in my home. We are about one thing: sponsorship using the Big Book. The group has grown by about five members in one month since we adapted our new format and stripped it down to the bare essentials.
Jim

Quotes From "The A.A. Service Manual combined with The Twelve Concepts For World Service."

[navysteve]

stand for nothing?

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by navysteve

stand for nothing?

And fall for anything.

[CarolD]

Hmm....am I not allowed to choose a Christian God
of my understanding?
Of course I am and have.

Am I not allowed to choose a group that does
support the service structure of AA?
Of course I am and have.

I won't be changeing my mind on either.

Because I don't agree with some members
does not mean I stand for nothing nor
am I unimformed.

The most interesting part of this thread to me
was Jim's share on his home group.
Again.....thanks Jim.....

Time to watch the Falcons play the Bears
Go Falcons.....and I won't be changeing
my mind on that either.........

Y'all enjoy the evening....

[jimhere]

I think I've said all I need to say on this subject. I know where I stand and hopefully everyone else knows where I stand too. And I respect each individual's right to stand for or against anything they wish. Or stand for nothing and be uninformed of they wish.
Jim