I just dropped someone I sponsored

[Pilgrim]

Hi all.

This is the first time I dropped someone I am sponsoring and Im feeling angry and upset.

Some of you here might know that I am a rigid Big Book thumper. I belong to a group that follows the Primary Purpose of AA - no open discussion format - we just work to understand how best to help the still suffering alcoholic. We use the book and nothing else for sponsorship directions. I don't go to open discussion meetings for fellowship. I tried that and I nearly died in the rooms because no one told me how to recover and I couldn't find a sponsor. That was my experience and it was as dangerous to me as the alcohol. Listening to people's problems day after day (same problems) is not an instruction for recovery I can find in my BB.

The people I have sponsored are my friends in AA and a fellowship has grown around me. Almost everyone I have sponsored (and there has been at least 10 this past year) got recovered and they are working with others themselves now. I am lucky - I found a sponsor who was sponsored by somone Joe Mcq sponsored. Joe was sponsored by Bill W.

For problems, I go to see a counsellor or I dump on my husband and talk through my stuff with my sponsor so I can find my part and discover more defects....I still seem to have quite a few...LOL. I also come here to vent.

Anyway - shutting up about all that and getting off my soap box now.

I have a friend that I took through the steps who just won't be honest with me. I know when she starts drinking again because she texts me to say she has the flu. Its always the same and it makes me feel sick when she does that. I then go through days of worrying about whether or not she is still alive. I try not to but I find it very difficult not to worry. I do care about her. I know I am powerless over her drinking but OMG - it's hard to switch off when you give a s**t.

She was in AA for two years just going to discussion meetings and not drinking. She didn't do the steps during those two years. I believe she is a real alcoholic and drank again, as we do. She got bad very quickly and had to go to hospital after her friends called for help. That has happened twice in the time I have known her.

During her two years in discussion meetings, I think she got the idea that she could control her drinking herself. She knows in her head she has a problem and she knows all the words to say that will make people think she is trying to recover. But she isn't OK and she isn't trying to recover. Her heart is full of dishonesty. I think she is good at lying and manipulating and I believe she is a complete fake.

She is using me and the group and her friends and her treatment centre (they love her there) to save her after each binge and her head seems to be telling her that she can get away with some drinking sometimes and just come waltzing back to her support network and pick up where she left off. She thinks we won't notice she drank. Does she think we are so stupid?

She has been drinking this past two weeks. Yesterday she rang to say she slipped one day last week and she wanted to be honest with me about that. I asked her if that was true (just one day) and she got upset. She said the person who told me she was drinking was not to be trusted. She finally admitted that she had been drinking longer than she said.

Her children went away for two weeks and they come back soon so she knows she has to try and sober up before they get back.

Last weekend she called me drunk early in the morning and demanded I go over to her house. I said I had a doctors appointment but that I would be over in an hour. She wasn't there because she was trying to hide her drinking from me. Later she said she must have been out walking the dogs but the dogs were barking when I went over. She was slurring her words when she rang. I presented this information to her last night and all I got was "please don't be angry with me". I said it wasn't a question of being in trouble or me being angry, but that she has a fatal disease and if she isn't honest, she won't make it.

I am prepared to do anything to help a sick alcoholic who wants to recover but I feel like I am being manipulated and I resent her. So this morning I told her I don't want to be her sponsor any more. I said I would be happy to talk to her about why if she wants. I also said I hoped we could stay friends.

The truth is - I am so mad with her. I don't want to see her. I don't want her to come to our meetings and sit there all prim and smiling knowingly about how her God is so important in her life pretending to be spiritual. I don't want her to sponsor people because I think she will kill sick newcomers with her dishonesty.

What does AA do when someone comes in who will not be honest and who uses the group and all the people in their life to help them drink/stop/drink/stop? Can we tell them to go away until they get honest? One of our traditions says we can deny no person who wants to recover. So can we deny them if they don't want to recover? If we are only thinking about those who are sick who want to recover, can we eject the fakers who might kill with their message of "I get away with it sometimes and I can show you how"?

Grumpy and a bit sad today but taking someone through a fifth step later. Someone who really wants it badly.

God bless.

Steph

[keithj]

Pilgrim,

That's the only time I've ever dropped a sponsee, was when I felt like them having me to pretend they were doing the work was actually doing them harm. No bad feelings, just helping them see the truth.

As a general rule, I don't fire people. They sort of just get less interested if they aren't serious. I've learned (sometimes slowly and painfully) that I can't chase people into taking the steps. I'm here if they want it, or even if they aren't sure but are willing to try.

[McGowdog]

Thx 4 sharing your experience Pilgrim.

I've heard that it's a spiritual axiom that if you don't care, I can't care. But if you do care, I have to care.

If someone is lying about their drinking, that's bad. I did that. It really sucked for me and I was unable to go to meetings and act right. I just couldn't say anything. My peers thought I was smoking weed or something. They just couldn't put their finger on what was wrong with me. Then I finally hit a brick wall and it was a big relief.

For someone to lie and be able to act like nothing is wrong is something! Wow.

Oh well. I'm not a sponsor expert but if I ever become one, I hope I can find a way to not take it personal and get so entrenched in their life to not interfere with them hitting their brick wall.

That brick wall for them might wind up being dead, but what can we do? If we know the honest truth in something, I would imagine it's our duty to bring that Truth out. That could save a life. The book even talks about that. If we're going to live long and happy, we have to get honest with someone.

[Ago]

I stopped reading here:

I have a friend that I took through the steps who just won't be honest with me

I don't sponsor friends or family, I can't keep the necessary detachment then it's me that is ineffective and it ends up with me having codependent tendencies that I end up needing to sort out.

In order for me to be an effective sponsor I need to literally have clinical detachment

[Tommyh]

Steph
Those folks will suck the life right out of you,at least that is my experience.You did the best thing,I think.Turn away from them and find someone who does want to recover.I do not fire sponsee`s,I just back off and let them do their thing,or suggest I `ll help them find another sponsor because we can`t seem to go any further.

As far as someone being booted from AA,no,I do not think we can do that,but any AA group can tell anyone not to come back to their group until they are ready to quit for good and seek help.Around here,most of us say,if you drink,you have removed yourself from AA and are no longer a member,especially our home group.

[Ago]

if you drink,you have removed yourself from AA and are no longer a member

This will be a fun discussion to follow, if someone drinks you kick them out of AA?

[Pinkcuda]

That's what the Wilmington Preamble says. Fortunately, tradition says otherwise.
Pass the popcorn.

The moment he takes so much as one drop of beer, wine, spirits or any other alcoholic beverage he automatically loses all status as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. A.A. is not interested in sobering up drunks who are not sincere in their desire to remain sober for all time. Not being reformers, we offer our experience only to those who want it.

[totfit]

While it might be the best call to drop the Sponsee, don't hold the lying against her forever. Honesty about our drinking is the most difficult is was for me. Now it is more just a matter of being honest with myself about intentions and living problems. Just on a historical note, I knew Joe McQ and never knew of Bill W. being his sponsor. I thought he sobered up and stayed around Little Rock. I did enjoy hearing him speak and chatting with him. He wasn't as much a "Thumper" as an interpreter of the Big Book. He did the treatment thing, "Recovery Dynamics". Do you happen to be around Little Rock/ go to Wolfe St. I haven't been to Little Rock in about 18 years, but spent a couple of very good years there. Learned a lot.

[totfit]

Originally Posted by Pinkcuda

That's what the Wilmington Preamble says. Fortunately, tradition says otherwise.
Pass the popcorn.

Sounds like its Wilmington that could actually booted from AA, not the poor sap that drank.

[jimhere]

It's like this. If someone doesn't care, I can't care.
Jim

[Freedom1990]

I don't want to see her. I don't want her to come to our meetings and sit there all prim and smiling knowingly about how her God is so important in her life pretending to be spiritual. I don't want her to sponsor people because I think she will kill sick newcomers with her dishonesty.

What were you like before you got dead serious about your recovery?

The only thing separating me and the guy across the room in AA who's reeking of alcohol and thinks no one knows is I've had the necessary spiritual awakening to arrest my alcoholism and make something of my life.

I'm no better than any other alcoholic, sober or otherwise. When I start thinking I am, I'm heading down a very dark path.

[Clutch B]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

What does AA do when someone comes in who will not be honest and who uses the group and all the people in their life to help them drink/stop/drink/stop? Can we tell them to go away until they get honest? One of our traditions says we can deny no person who wants to recover. So can we deny them if they don't want to recover? If we are only thinking about those who are sick who want to recover, can we eject the fakers who might kill with their message of "I get away with it sometimes and I can show you how"?

Short story ...

At one group I frequented (before I moved away), a drunk man came to the meeting every week. And I don't mean he was coming off from a drunk, but he was actually DRUNK.

He'd stumble into the meeting and crash into a seat. Sometimes he'd sit quietly, but sometimes he'd erupt into a nonsensical, speech-slurred tirade.

A few of the men would help him outside (so the rest of the meeting would not be disrupted), and they'd talk with him.

Every meeting, without fail, for 3 years, this drunk guy showed up.

I moved away and stopped going to that meeting. I always wondered about that guy.

I found out from a friend last week: He's STILL going to that meeting.

But he's not drunk anymore. In fact, he just picked up a 6-month chip.

I'm glad the group didn't kick him out. I hate to think of what might have happened to him if he had nowhere to go.

[SoberNVa]

What does AA do when someone comes in who will not be honest and who uses the group and all the people in their life to help them drink/stop/drink/stop? Can we tell them to go away until they get honest? One of our traditions says we can deny no person who wants to recover. So can we deny them if they don't want to recover? If we are only thinking about those who are sick who want to recover, can we eject the fakers who might kill with their message of "I get away with it sometimes and I can show you how"?

Grumpy and a bit sad today but taking someone through a fifth step later. Someone who really wants it badly.

God bless.

Steph[/QUOTE]


I thank God nobody ever attempted to eject me during the 14 years I spent in AA before I finally truly surrendered. Id probably be dead or locked up now. I never carried the message of "I get away with it" nor did I ever want to show anyone how.I do understand your reluctance to continue sponsoring this person. I have been let go by sponsors before myself,and I fully realize why they did so.But,barring this person being drunk and disruptive,I dont think anyone can eject her.If she keeps coming back,she may just get sober someday after all. I did. I kept relapsing for 14 years,and I now have over 6 years sober. There is always hope for any alcoholic.

[joedris]

Pilgrim, I certainly don't mean to be critical, but it seems as if you're being a little too judgemental here. Your ex-sponsee is an active alcoholic. They lie, manipulate, con others and do all sorts of nasty things. Just like we all did at that phase in our drinking. I think you did the right thing in firing her in that she's apparently not serious about working the program. Yet. I've fired a few in my time for the same reasons. Bill W. even refers to dropping others on pg 95 of the BB.

What I would suggest here is that you take an attitude toward sponsees whereby you take no credit for their success nor blame for their failure. As sponsors we function as guides, not dictators. We suggest, not compel. It's the sponsee's program of recovery, not ours. Remember that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. And one of our mantras is "Keep coming back".

I went to AA meetings for two years with a drink in my car and everyone knew it. I kept going because I knew there was hope in the rooms, and if I stopped going I knew that I'd never survive. So I kept bringing the body and the mind eventually followed. My point here is that everyone was aware of what I was doing and there was never any danger of me leading another alcoholic astray.

Your friend may be one of those unfortunates who are incapable of being honest with themselves. If that's the case she'll eventually stop going to meetings. Meanwhile, I suggest that you treat her as you would anyone else in the room. So if she ever does "get it", you'll be there to help her.

[meditation]

Don't they always say in AA "We will love you till you love yourself" Where is the love? If AA can't help the suffering alcoholic who can they help? I am puzzled... who is AA for then?

[Pinkcuda]

One of our traditions says we can deny no person who wants to recover. So can we deny them if they don't want to recover? If we are only thinking about those who are sick who want to recover, can we eject the fakers who might kill with their message of "I get away with it sometimes and I can show you how"?

Yes, It can be done at the group level. They may still call themselves AA members and find a group that will take them. Usually this is not done for drinking but done if someone compromises the well being of the group or any of its members.

[Pagekeeper]

It's a tough situation. I know because I'm in it right now. My sponsee was so loaded on pills at the meeting the other night she was nodding out on my shoulder. This is the second time that has happened in a week.

After the meeting, I pull her to the side and confront her, again. She denies all of it, again, and swears up and down she's not loaded. So I say to her, "You have to get HONEST. If you can't be honest with me then I can't help you."

Two days later and she's still lying. So I'm done. If ever she's ready to get honest then I'll consider working with her again.

I need to allow her that same grace that was granted to me: the grace of being beaten into a state of reasonableness.

I had to try everything. Everything for her may include going to meetings loaded, lying about it, and trying to "work a program" under the influence. For all I know, that may be her ticket to grace. And I'm not saying that judgementally or sarcastically. I don't know what it takes for other people. I suppose that's where love and tolerance come in.

[McGowdog]

In my group, drinking is not considered acceptable behavior.

If we suspect somebody to be drinking and/or pilling during a meeting, we ask that person if they are. We at least need to know their condition. If they are, they probably will not be asked to share and will be talked to after the meeting.

I am told that drinking hurts a group... especially if it's tolerated. I've been told, if you're gonna drink, drink out there, not in here. That kind of makes sense to me.

[Pinkcuda]

I've decided that I'm going to try a new approach and shoot for the "Spiritual Awakening" to do the job. Mainly because anything I say isn't working when it comes to combating the obsession and the cravings. If we were to keep score when it came to successes and failures of sponsees we would be batting a dismal 5-10 percent at best.
So, next time I get my hands on some fresh meat I'm going to explain the "Spiritual Awakening" and how we come to this "as a result of these 12 steps" and how our desire to drink is about to be removed due to this awakening.
So when they tell me a sob story about how they "slipped" I can say that I don't give a %$&%$& if they drink or not since I don't have the power to stop them. Then we can mush on with the steps.

[Pagekeeper]

Dog: Well it makes sense, yeah. But we're talking about alcoholics, who make anything but sense. Why someone would want to go to a meeting under the influence is beyond me, but hey, why someone would want to smoke crack after downing a fifth of vodka is beyond me too, even though I've done it.

[shaun00]

What do i have to offer to someone doesnt want to recover......zilch..

i cant look down at them from a high place either.....

and if im angry and upset because they "wont tow the party line" and then act like a drinking alkie......then what was my driving force to sponsor them in the first place?..

i dont work with friends..or relatives......unless theres no other option.

hope the girl is ok and finds the answer to the dilema.

[tiburon88]

Perhaps they should have mandatory breathalizers at all all AA meetings? If you blow numbers into the machine you should be suspended from every AA meeting from coast to coast? I'm sure that would help the still suffering alcoholic recover.

tiburon88

[tricky164]

theres been some good responces here.

i watched one of my friends in and out for years, he asked me to sponsor him at least 5 or 6 times, every time i said NO because he is a friend. after watching him go out for a night last year and end up cutting all his arms up with a carving knife, stealing his baby son from his ex at 2am, then getting sectioned at a mental health unit where they just pumped him full of drugs to keep him quiet. when he was released from there he asked me again. "please sponsor me" i going to die if i dont sort this out. i said yes.

he did all the same things as me (and you) and started to recover. at 90 days he decided he wasnt an alcoholic and went to celebrate. but the difference this time was that after a week or so of not being able to sop again, he realized what hed lost this time. (peace of mind). he came back to me and although i was mad with him i could see something different in him.

its now a year later.......

yesterday i get a call from him, hes crying ! whats up ? i say, he fought back his tears then said, i just wanted to tell you that i feel so good, i have a peace that i dont understand and i am truly grateful to you for helping save my life, i have a new baby girl, a great relationship with my ex, a great job and i sponsor others. you told me, when i asked you to sponsor me that, "there was a life on offer here that would blow my mind" and thats what i have 'thank you'.

i thanked him and we both shed a tear about what we have both been given.

i swore i would never sponsor a friend, and look at what i would have missed !!

treat them all as you would a sick friend.

peace and fellowship to you and your friend.

god bless.

[Tommyh]

Originally Posted by Ago

This will be a fun discussion to follow, if someone drinks you kick them out of AA?

my group says you quit

[CarolD]

Hi Steph....

I have dropped sponsees before and they did go on to
re-start their formal Step work with another sponsor
Most now have years of solid recovery...

My home group is not a "Primary Purpose" group.
For the 10 years I have been a member...we do not
allow members to sponsor unless they have finished
their formal 12 Step work.

I can't imagine telling a member that they are
no longer welcome to use AA.

For your resentment over this situation.....I suggest
Page 552 in our Big Book.

Always good to see you here with us....