Do you "farm out" Newcomers?

[Ago]

One thing I have watched over the years is my evolution of "quality of sponsorship" or "type of sponsorship"

In my early years I sponsored a ton of newcomers, I picked up my first sponsee at 30 days, and by the time I had a year I had a fleet of sponsees, many of whom are still sober today.

It seems frequently the concepts I discuss are over many newcomers heads, they have many years of suffering to endure in sobriety before what I say makes sense. Not all, but the majority, I am frequently not the best person to sponsor a new and wet newcomer. It's just not where my strength is.

However, now one of the things I am actually really pleased with, is my ability to listen to a newcomer and introduce them someone who I think carries the message they would be able to hear. Introducing newcomers to a good sponsor "fit", and I have learned over the years that some newcomers are a good "match" for me to sponsor, but quite frankly, much more frequently I know someone who's life experience and language matches the newcomer more closely then mine, a man or woman who's approach will be more effective them mine.

We have many differing types of people here, and I have gotten to know many of you pretty well, and to know that many of us carry the message, but we do so in different ways.

I would be happy and comfortable when listening to a newcomer, and matching them to who I feel would be a more effective sponsor then me, Rob B, NavySteve, TommyK, Jimhere, Cubile, Tazman, etc etc the list goes on and on

I have a few dozen old sponsees with double digit sobriety, two I think have under ten years, one at 9 years, one at 7, but I noticed a few years ago all the sponsees I started picking up had anywhere from a few years of sobriety to 17 years, or had relapsed after a long period of sobriety. I also noticed that sponsees I have worked with the last few years have some pretty serious "family of origin" issues and codependency issues they were replaying in relationships.

These are the people I am effectively able to help as these are the things I have navigated either successfully or unsuccessfully in sobriety, thus have experience with.

About 10 years ago I started picking up sponsees that wanted what is called Stage II Recovery, a term coined by Earnie Larson, who's premise is:

Sustained abstinence from an addiction is only the first stage of recovery; real recovery begins with Stage II--the rebuilding of the life that was saved in Stage I.

Or in other words, how to be "Happy, joyous and free", I was getting large numbers of sponsees that had spent a number of years as one of the "doin it right" guys, and they were miserable, and had watched me recover from that seemingly hopeless condition of mind, mouth and ego.

I don't like the "recovery" word either but it's the only description I have found, and when you use the term, "Stage II Recovery" people know what I am talking about, I would preferably not have that be the topic, I am only using that as an example.

So, The question is, Did your sponsorship style and sponsees evolve over the years, and do you match newcomers to people you think would be a more effective sponsor for them?

[ElegantlyWasted]

Nice fish ... Smile.... Great post. Not currently working AA. But very much relate to the "stage ii" of recovery. My take is that we al have somethig constructive to give to another in "recovery". And that by knowing our own strenghts and weaknesses we are better able to help ourselves and others (getting rid of that dry drnk mindset and really live).

[keithj]

Interesting, Ago.

Like you said, I know a number of guys that I would absolutely trust to sponsor any newcomer. A newcomer couldn't go wrong with any of them. Yes, I've introduced somebody to somebody else for mainly two reasons:

1) Sometimes it just 'feels' like it would be a right match. You talk to a guy for a while and just sort of know that so and so could make a connection with them.

2) For the benefit of the sponsor. I know that I need to work with the newcomer. I don't see how not to pass along the message. So I recognize that that guy with a year's sobriety needs to work with others as well. I've directed newcomers to some of those guys.

I hear what you are saying about sponsoring guys with time. Different ballgame. Personally, I love finding a wet drunk to work with. And not because I think it's where my strength necessarily lies. It's because they are so damn easy and willing. Hopelessness and desperation come naturally. I find it much tougher to work with someone who has been getting by for 6 months or a year on white knuckle sobriety. Sometimes there is a spark when we revisit the Dr.'s Opinion, but usually their ideas are fairly ingrained.

Curious to see other responses.

[Ago]

Originally Posted by keithj

Interesting, Ago.

Like you said, I know a number of guys that I would absolutely trust to sponsor any newcomer. A newcomer couldn't go wrong with any of them. Yes, I've introduced somebody to somebody else for mainly two reasons:

1) Sometimes it just 'feels' like it would be a right match. You talk to a guy for a while and just sort of know that so and so could make a connection with them.

2) For the benefit of the sponsor. I know that I need to work with the newcomer. I don't see how not to pass along the message. So I recognize that that guy with a year's sobriety needs to work with others as well. I've directed newcomers to some of those guys.

I hear what you are saying about sponsoring guys with time. Different ballgame. Personally, I love finding a wet drunk to work with. And not because I think it's where my strength necessarily lies. It's because they are so damn easy and willing. Hopelessness and desperation come naturally. I find it much tougher to work with someone who has been getting by for 6 months or a year on white knuckle sobriety. Sometimes there is a spark when we revisit the Dr.'s Opinion, but usually their ideas are fairly ingrained.

Curious to see other responses.

Good answers you guys, thanks

Kieth, with me what happens frequently, for example, when someone who is new is operating on the "If only this then that" operating system, like If only I could find the right woman, get the right job, buy a new truck etc I would be happy, I try to explain it's an inside job, so I will trot out an explanation like this one:

One of the things I had to learn was the receptors in the mind that receive emotion are the same receptors triggered by drugs, endorphins etc and that just like I can get addicted to heroin or alcohol, I get addicted to negative emotions, it's the exact same thing, so one of the things I do in sobriety, am doing, is remapping my brain.

I had to learn that since I was addicted to negativity I would unconsciously create and recreate situations that would generate negative emotions, that's why it said in recovery that suffering is optional, and we avoid the deliberate manufacture of misery.

The best, and quite frankly one of the only ways I know how to do that is to help others, it's not a matter of minimizing my emotions but being aware that they are usually lying to me. One way is they try to make me so miserable that taking a drink or drug is a good idea, the other is, the truth of the matter is I am addicted to negative emotions, that's why we so frequently sabotage ourselves, our lives and our relationships. We are comfortable being uncomfortable, suffering is our normal, that's why we drink and used was to "feel better".

It takes 90 days to break and change habits and I have read it takes a year to remap the receptors in the brain, so in that year I practice practice practice focusing on the positive, focusing on helping others, focusing on not thinking about myself, that's why they call Buddhism a practice, and why in the twelve steps it says we practice these principals, because we have to exercise those muscles.

Einstein said we cant fix the problem with the same level of thinking that caused the problem, and I needed to learn that dwelling in negative thoughts WAS the problem...literally....that's what's wrong with me, and so I need to realize that my thinking will lead me back to that place, my mind is not my friend.

It took me many many years of sobriety to learn this, and truthfully it was on hindsight, there was a period of years when all my dreams came true, I lived with a beautiful woman in a wonderful house, I spent 4 months a year on surf trips vacationing around the world, I was a quasi-well known sculptor, and I surfed or sculpted during my work shifts (I was a paramedic in a beach town) and I have never been so miserable in my life.

So if circumstances were enough to make me happy I would have been deliriously happy, but I was MISERABLE. So what did I learn from that experience?

That the truth of the matter is I didn't know how to be happy. The old timers had tried to explain that to me repeatedly but I didn't understand what they were trying to say.

Quote:
In the 1970s, researchers followed people who'd won the lottery and found that a year after they'd hit the jackpot, they were no happier than the people who didn't. They called it hedonic adaptation, which suggests that we each have a baseline level of happiness. No matter what happens, good or bad, the effect on our happiness is only temporary and we tend to rebound to our baseline level. Some people have a higher baseline happiness level than others, and that can be attributed in part to genetics, but it's also largely influenced by how you think

In one study, two groups of people were asked to pick out a poster to take home. One group was asked to analyze their decision carefully, weighing the pros and cons, and the other group was told to listen to their gut. Two weeks later, the group that followed their gut was happier with their posters than the group that analyzed their decisions
So what these facts say to me is my brain is untrustworthy, it spends a great deal of time lying to me, and learning how to differentiate between the deliberate manufacture of misery and reality becomes of critical importance in my sobriety if I expect to either remain sober or have a happy contented life.

Feel your feelings by all means, but for me I have to realize that feelings aren't facts and that my emotional state has absolutely nothing to do with reality and has no bearing to what's actually happening in my life

That tidbit took me ten years to learn, and it's something I can't pass along to someone unless they have lived sober for many years, had all their "dreams" come true, and are still miserable. That this is why the meditation part of step 11 is important because it teaches me how to just watch those thoughts and emotions go by and not "attach" that my brain will tell me stories that are pure fiction even after many years of sobriety.

The newcomer will hang on to the concept frequently that "If only this then that" and when I explain this concept, they will give me a blank expression and know in their heart of hearts that once they find the right relationship that will "fix" them. (or whatever the case may be)

Who I find receptive is the person who has run out of stories in sobriety, the same way you have great results with those who have run out of stories with their practicing alcoholism. Those who stand at the turning point in sobriety, who can't imagine drinking or not drinking, don't remember the exact quote, but those who reach that point after many years of sobriety, because I have been there, done that, even while working a rigorous program, working the steps every year, having a sponsor, sponsees, home group etc, doing everything "right" but still ready to put a gun in my mouth.

Make sense?

[tommyk]

Interesting timing of your post.

I always say 'yes' to being someone's temporary sponsor, explaining that my PRIMARY responsibility is to guide them through the steps. My own philosophy is that I can address 95% of my own problems through the steps in some fashion, and I can contact the appropriate source (my own sponsor?) for the other 5%. I share that ES&H with others and highly encourage step work.

The only 'problem' I seem to have with sponsees is when the sponsee is in a relationship with another person who either uses, or is also trying recovery.

I cannot relate to marriage and live-in girlfriend recovery problems. I have no experience, I have no patience. All of my relationships are with girls who are not in the program, who know that I place a priority on meetings/recovery, and who do not have any substance abuse issues.

So... lately I have been encouraging this type of 'in a relationship' newcomer to seek out a sponsor who is married to some one with 'issues', so they can receive better guidance than I can provide, and I openly/honestly explain why.

I guess that is farming them out, in a way, but I don't abandon them, and I remain their temporary sponsor until they find a better suited sponsor.

[keithj]

Originally Posted by Ago

Make sense?

Yup. I think so. Kind of.

I have not experienced that bottom in sobriety that so many others have. I hear about it, I fully expect it, but I have not had it. It would be irresponsible of me to work with someone going through that 'dark night of the soul'. I believe that the solution is the same for both that person with long term sobriety and for the newcomer, but that is a person I would direct to one of my friends that was better equipped.

Originally Posted by Ago

Kieth, with me what happens frequently, for example, when someone who is new is operating on the "If only this then that" operating system, like If only I could find the right woman, get the right job, buy a new truck etc I would be happy, I try to explain it's an inside job, so I will trot out an explanation like this one:

This I understand entirely. It is, in my opinion, the single biggest detriment to one's own recovery. Every single newcomer, including myself at the time, seems plagued with this notion that if only [insert thing here], all would be well.

I just try to gently convince them that they have just one problem: untreated alcoholism. When we get that figured out, everything else will fall into place. Or not. But they will be able to deal with it. You must have more patience than I do. I just steer the topic back into whatever step we are on. I refuse to engage in the 'here is what I did to get back the girl or the job, or the car, or whatever.' What step are we on? Maybe that's why I get that blank stare you mentioned.

[Rob B]

Good Post Andrew, thanks for the compliment. I think we all have our niches where we can be useful. I've sponsored a lot of guys. By last count 4 are in a recovered state, 2 have comitted suicide, and the rest..God only knows.

I went through my AA Guru period, grabbing guys left and right, all for selfish motives, none of them were ready and I might have actually turned them off AA with my rigidity.

These days when I am approached, I do a few things. I qualify the guy, is he alcoholic,if I am convinced I ask the man to pray on it, I do the same, I show them the book and the steps, I tell them, this is what we will be doing. Are you in? Do you want to be done for good and all?

This has worked well, not many people want to do the deal, the ones that do sit with it and if they decide they want it, we go to work, quickly they find out what the 3rd step decision is all about.I am a member of a road weary group. We go on 17 commitments a month, I don't do all of these but quite a few. We carry the message to jails, rehabs, detoxes, treatment facilities. We have a blast. I expect the guys I work with to be doing this.

I've learned to trust God a lot more in this area trusting I will meet the people I am supposed to meet as long as I am taking action. It would be nice to sit in my living room and just have guys who want to recover pop in, but that hasn't happened yet. I am convincedthat one of the most spiritual disciplines involving the ongoing death of self, is setting aside my little plans and designs and working with others.Looking forward to hearing other's experience.

[trucker]

"""I went through my AA Guru period, grabbing guys left and right, all for selfish motives, none of them were ready and I might have actually turned them off AA with my rigidity""

That is nice to read rob....

Its was easy to play the big shot here.....3 or 4 years sober and i can honestly say i thought the sun shone out of my butt..

these days i can say i got it wrong...often........pushing guys through the steps...being intolerant around agnostics...
all for the benefit of my ego......

i see ago mention a 2nd stage....and i realize how long i was in the first...if indeed i am in the 2nd..?

I'm like keith......i tend to work with newcomers or wet newcomers.....
i try hard not to scare people anymore.

I'm 9 years sober and reading this thread....and just recently i notice how little i do know...and how rigid Ive become.

still.......after all this time thats difficult to admit......
i dont know what going on with me at the moment.....some of it is medical.
alot of it is.... re-examination...

sorry I'm waffling.........all will be revealed i guess.

[AW2486]

Originally Posted by Rob B

not many people want to do the deal

How true that is.

Alot of "tire kickers" in AA. In my evangelical phase, I use to chase those people around with AA pom poms, it never worked and got tiring. I learned. Now when I'm asked, which is not very often (when they find out your the type that requires them to do the deal.) I have them read the book. Then I ask them if they are ready to do what is in the book, if they say anything but yes, I tell them there are plenty of people that would be happy to sit next to them in AA and be their sponsor.

[bballdad]

I have sponsored a bunch of guys too.Today my sponsor tells me not to take on any new guys yet,because I am too busy doing what he and I are doing,which is going back thru the book.I give them names and numbers and when possible introduce them to others.It is good for the newer guys to do some sponsoring ,they need the experience.Farm out is a good way to put it,so I guess I do it lately.
I used to not do it and over worked myself and shortchanged them and myself.At one time I had 8 new guys and they was driving me crazy,not any more.I was ignoring my family then and thats not what this is all about.

stage II recovery,I put it this way,after the obsession to drink has been removed and we get back on our feet in life,then we can treat the rest of our alcoholism

[Wolfchild]

How i sponsor people hasn't really changed too much because it's foundation is in the 12 Steps & 12 Traditions. My style has become more realistic as i continue to learn and grow in my own recovery. Personal issues have become less important to me and i try to keep the focus on what works for our spiritual welfare. i reach out to those who need help and am always available to those who ask for help. i have learned to trust God with the results of what happens after that. Sometimes, it doesn't need to be defined as to what direction the relationship is going in, it just happens naturally and in God's time. i have found it very vital to listen more and talk less when it comes to someone who is unsure about asking me to sponsor them. i've done it the other way around and saw the results of trying to force something on someone. i keep in mind that we are just trying, in our own way, to help each other stay clean & sober for another day. If i do not have any experience in something, wether that's in my own recovery or someone else's, i refer the matter to someone who i know has gone through it.

[Ago]

Great Responses, what a great thread

i have found it very vital to listen more and talk less when it comes to someone who is unsure about asking me to sponsor them.

/heaves a huge sigh

I used to know everything

then I learned i didn't know jack

as time went on, over the years, I find I know it all again

except how to STFU

EGO EGO EGO

The Book says more will be revealed, and that's true, but in my case it's beginning to look like the same tired old sh1t over and over and over just in a shiny new package every week

[McGowdog]

Well don't worry Ago. That brick wall will be coming by shortly. Just don't tense up too much.

Surrender is always fun. I just wish I could think of that first!

Originally Posted by Ago

as time went on, over the years, I find I know it all again

except how to STFU

"You have the right to remain silent." -COP

"I know. I just don't have the ability." - Ron White

[Charmie]

this is a great thread,i still cant say thank you to posts,,,i am only just short of 8 months sober,got my first sponsee couple weeks ago,,,so i have absolutely nothing to add to this! but,,its great reading for me,,so thank you all.ps,,whats this ego thing you all keep talking about??? have absolutely no idea what that is,,,,,

[McGowdog]

All I can say, as IMO, is tip your hat to it and leave it alone.

[Charmie]

didnt think i had an ego,,ive heard so many folk say this in the rooms,,,charmie was in for a big big shock,,its there,but Him and i are working on it!,,along with fear,self seeking,selfishness,dishonesty,,,oh yeh,and inconsideration,,shucks,and i thought an alki was someone who drank too much,,,,am looking forward to reading the rest of this thread!

[FightingIrish]

This is a great thread. For the past two years I've been making financial amends to the IRS. There was an unspoken (and sometimes spoken) assumption that as soon as I paid off all my debts and was free of all that, that my life would change (for the better).

Well, I "fell out of debt" last month, and so far the yellow brick road has yet to bring me anywhere I thought I'd be.

What IS miraculous is that having gone through the discipline of paying off my debts, I seem to have established an aversion to spending money on frivilous things and an affinity for saving.

[Ago]

Originally Posted by Charmie

didnt think i had an ego,,ive heard so many folk say this in the rooms,,,charmie was in for a big big shock,,its there,but Him and i are working on it!,,along with fear,self seeking,selfishness,dishonesty,,,oh yeh,and inconsideration,,shucks,and i thought an alki was someone who drank too much,,,,am looking forward to reading the rest of this thread!

The interesting thing is finding out it's all ego

everything

it's crazy, I had an OMFG moment of clarity the other morning, I was watching the sun come up, and you know how when you wake up you have chatterbrain?

I do anyway, and it takes me a good 1/2 hour of morning stuff, readings, coffee, prayer, meditation, more coffee, 15 cigarettes, to get my mind lined up for the day?

Well the other morning I woke up with utter clarity, the only thing to compare it to was the first time I ever had a drink and I realized that all my priorities for my whole life had been wrong up to that point, it was that profound.

I just sat there and looked at my thinking for the past year or so and realized that God still had some work to do in my step two.

I wonder if he could send money too when he restores me to sanity.

that's what care means in step three right?

I'm kidding, but I have to say the other morning was truly amazing, it was like......being truly awake and clear for a few hours.

Like total and clear Buddha-like clarity.

Prolly lasted for a few hours before I was all wrapped up in myself again, confused and angry about finance and romance and listening away to the funny little stories in my head.