Prayer and meditation

[navysteve]

William Q. Judge, who was one of the founding members of the Theosophical Society dedicated alot of writing to prayer and meditation. He divided meditation into two sorts: "First is practiced at a set time ( more like a ritual, a few have mentioned here about prayer becoming rote and I definitelty agree that merely setting aside time for the ritual of prayer can become quite meaningless). Second is the meditation of an entire lifetime, that single thread of intention, intentness, and desire running through the years stretching between the cradle and the grave." This second type is the one I am interested in. Striving to have every waking moment with selfless contemplation of the divine, whether doing dishes or performing your life's occupation; knowing that your every decision is informed from the standpoint of love and devotion to the ultimate principles in life — that is working with nature and not judging her or trying to change her path. (Judge)

We hear in the rooms alot that prayer is us talking to God and meditation is listening. And in an elementary way I believe this is true. But when I am living in harmony with all things ( and I have moments) my life is an adoration of all things divine. I lose the sight of prayer when I seek concrete tangible results. I had shifted my focus of prayer when I came into the rooms. My prayers went from God get me out of this jam, to God remove this defect. When I boil these two sets of prayers down, they become the same selfish thing. I like what Bill says in the twelve and twelve on step 2 :

Sometimes it's because God has not delivered us the good things of life which we specified, as a greedy child makes an impossible list for Santa Claus. More often, though, we had met up with some major calamity, and to our way of thinking lost out because God deserted us. The girl we wanted to marry had other notions; we prayed God that she'd change her mind, but she didn't. We prayed for healthy children, and were presented with sick ones, or none at all. We prayed for promotions at business, and none came. Loved ones, upon whom we heartily depended, were taken from us by so-called acts of God. Then we became drunkards, and asked God to stop that. But nothing happened. This was the unkindest cut of all. `Damn this faith business!' we said.

"When we encountered A.A., the fallacy of our defiance was revealed. At no time had we asked what God's will was for us; instead we had been telling Him what it ought to be. No man, we saw, could believe in God and defy Him, too. Belief meant reliance, not; defiance.


Still seeking to improve...

[Mark75]

Second is the meditation of an entire lifetime, that single thread of intention, intentness, and desire running through the years stretching between the cradle and the grave."

Purpose. Awareness.

I liked your post Steve, thanx...

Mark

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by navysteve

...My prayers went from God get me out of this jam, to God remove this defect. When I boil these two sets of prayers down, they become the same selfish thing.

Reminds me of how I boiled-down steps 10 & 11 to:

"Continue to watch for selfishness, dishonesty, resentment, and fear. When these crop up, we ask God at once to remove them."
(page 84)

[McGowdog]

It's good to get back to talking steps, especially 10 and 11.

I was in my kitchen just about an hour ago and I was yelling my head off about my stupid printer. It's 15 till noon and I'm gonna miss my noon meeting because of a stupid printer. Then while in the kitchen, I decided to pour some coffee, get my toast out of the toaster, clean the kitchen counter back up a bit, and resume my job hunt. [I scanned this doc and it printed out on photo paper. It took me about 30 minutes to "tell" the printer what I thought of it and what it should be doing instead.] Anyway, while I was in the kitchen cleaning the counter, I'd noticed that the wife had her 4 wine bottles in the way of our stuff so I moved them to the corner of the cabinet. I was not only seldom interested in liquor, I had no interest in the booze at all. Now my damn coffee, another story.

So I had time to revisit my standard prayer and meditation. Oh, BTW, that's a damn miracle! So, if they throw you lemons, make lemonade.

The brain oscillates at a frequency of 0.5 hz (in the deepest sleep) to 85 hz (epileptic seizure). More common is 4 hz (deep sleep) to 40 hz (intense excitement). [source: Jose Silva- Mental Dynamics pg 14.] The book says that excitement is dangerous for an alcoholic, btw. If I can get down to alpha, that's not too shaby. I once had a 45 minute out of body-decide back to consciousness type meditation the first time I seriously attemped the Jose Silva method, which I did after taking a 3rd Step. I use some form of it in most of my meditations to this day. I am careful with meditation.

I think repetition is a good thing when developing the discipline. Any prayer and any meditation is good according to Emmet. I know a guy who comes to A.A. and he is in constant prayer. My first thought is "What an order, I can't go through with it." But like Rick Warren (Purpose Driven Life) says, we can bring contemplation into every day activites... such as cooking and cleaning dishes.

Sure. Knock yourself out. What's your current experience with it?

[McGowdog]

So... does anybody like group meditations? I find meditation with a group of people in a circle to be very powerful.

Do you try to face east when you can? What do you do about the dogs, cats, kids, etc.? For me, it's just cats so I can just close the door.

Has anyone ever worked with the Centering Prayer? Welcome Prayer?

Originally Posted by George, a Monday Nighter

I let go of my desire for power and control...
Welcome, welcome.
I let go of my desire for esteem and affection...
Welcome, welcome.
I let go of my desire for security and survival...
Welcome, welcome.
I let go of my desire to change the situation...
Welcome, welcome.

[navysteve]

So... does anybody like group meditations? I find meditation with a group of people in a circle to be very powerful.

I went to a group that used to do a 12 minute moment of silence. I find that I do better on my own. Probably simply because my own distracting behaviors don't bother me ( pride of ownership?) I don't mind it when my nose whistles, or I clear my throat, or when I adjust myself in my chair and the floor makes that squeaky noise ( add the echo when in a meeting room).

But that meeting also had more God centered sharing ( in my opinion)

So there might be a connection?

[Mark75]

I went to Friends Meeting (Quakers) until I was in college. Meeting for worship is an hour of silence (meditation). Silence is broken only when an individual is "moved to speak", presumably by the presence of God...

Group meditation is very powerful...

In many ways AA is like the Friends, especially the group conscious thing.

Mark

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by navysteve

William Q. Judge, who was one of the founding members of the Theosophical Society dedicated alot of writing to prayer and meditation. He divided meditation into two sorts: "First is practiced at a set time ( more like a ritual, a few have mentioned here about prayer becoming rote and I definitelty agree that merely setting aside time for the ritual of prayer can become quite meaningless). Second is the meditation of an entire lifetime, that single thread of intention, intentness, and desire running through the years stretching between the cradle and the grave." This second type is the one I am interested in. Striving to have every waking moment with selfless contemplation of the divine, whether doing dishes or performing your life's occupation; knowing that your every decision is informed from the standpoint of love and devotion to the ultimate principles in life — that is working with nature and not judging her or trying to change her path. (Judge)

We hear in the rooms alot that prayer is us talking to God and meditation is listening. And in an elementary way I believe this is true. But when I am living in harmony with all things ( and I have moments) my life is an adoration of all things divine. I lose the sight of prayer when I seek concrete tangible results. I had shifted my focus of prayer when I came into the rooms. My prayers went from God get me out of this jam, to God remove this defect. When I boil these two sets of prayers down, they become the same selfish thing. I like what Bill says in the twelve and twelve on step 2 :

Sometimes it's because God has not delivered us the good things of life which we specified, as a greedy child makes an impossible list for Santa Claus. More often, though, we had met up with some major calamity, and to our way of thinking lost out because God deserted us. The girl we wanted to marry had other notions; we prayed God that she'd change her mind, but she didn't. We prayed for healthy children, and were presented with sick ones, or none at all. We prayed for promotions at business, and none came. Loved ones, upon whom we heartily depended, were taken from us by so-called acts of God. Then we became drunkards, and asked God to stop that. But nothing happened. This was the unkindest cut of all. `Damn this faith business!' we said.

"When we encountered A.A., the fallacy of our defiance was revealed. At no time had we asked what God's will was for us; instead we had been telling Him what it ought to be. No man, we saw, could believe in God and defy Him, too. Belief meant reliance, not; defiance.


Still seeking to improve...

This is some good stuff Steve.

Bill said it would be easy to be vague about this subject, and I agree, we are vague about it in AA. I was just saying to a friend last night that it is such a shame that most of us don't pay much attention to our inner lives, and that about all you hear in meetings is what you said Steve-that prayer is talking and meditation is listening. It has been hard to find spiritual direction in AA. So far most of it, at least for me, has came from non-AA's and non-AA sources.

A few of my mentors have been AA's though, and one of them said one time, I think we were talking about the St. Francis prayer, "Be the prayer." I think this lines up with the passage you quoted Steve. I've had brief moments and glimpses of that. Not nearly enough, but enough to know what the man who wrote that meant.
Jim

[jimhere]

"Has anyone ever worked with the Centering Prayer? Welcome Prayer?"

I've been working with Centering Prayer for about the last twelve or thirteen years or so. If you are interested in that, a good place to start is "Open Mind, Open Heart" by Fr. Thomas Keating, the Trappist monk who started the movement. He based his practice on the ancient forms of contemplative prayer found in the practices of The Desert Fathers and a little book written by an anonymous fourteenth century English monk called "The Cloud of Unknowing."

A friend from Cincinnati got me interested in it. He was talking about it at an 11th Step workshop at the '95 Fellowship Of The Spirit in Breckenridge.
Jim

[McGowdog]

Yeah, George from that Denver group has a little workshop on it at every retreat for the last 5 or 6 times that I've been. He even came down to Pueblo on year and did that with us and the Welcome prayer.

He describes some of the different ways that people can focus or narrow their attention like lighting a candle and using that, using a word for God... like Refuge or whatever you like, then at times, sitting on the bank of a calm flowing river and watching these boats float by. The boats are our thoughts... and he says the trick is to not get in the boat. But if you do, you just bring yourself back with the "word" or with your breath. He describes the same source you did, Jim. He also stresses to go gentle with yourself and relax. He says if you fall asleep, that's ok, just commence from where you're at again. He used a timer and I think we usually go for about 20 minutes or so.

[jimhere]

Yes, twenty minutes in the morning and the twenty minutes in the evening is what is recommended. I am pretty diligent about the morning, no so consistent in the evening. Sometimes I only do five minutes in the evening.

I like Keating's book. There is a question and answer section in the back, and one of the questions asks about falling asleep. I love Keating's reply: "What is wrong with falling asleep in the arms of God?" classic.

[navysteve]

It has been hard to find spiritual direction in AA. So far most of it, at least for me, has came from non-AA's and non-AA sources

Me as well, I am lucky however, that I have known a few people ( minister, and priests) in the fellowship who have had some great insight for me