Communion Wine

[Mark75]

I think I'll post this question here. I thought about posting in the christianity section, but I'm interested in what my fellow AAs think.

I recently converted to catholicism. My wife has been catholic her whole life and our four kids were raised in catholic schools, pre K through 2 kids in college presently. My conversion was something that I was considering for a while. The process became part of my early recovery.

For those who don't know, the Eucharist is central to mass, and catholics believe that the bread and wine are not a representation of the body and blood of christ, but in fact, are... It was this belief that took me many years to understand and embrace.

I took the wine (a taste, not a drink) at my first communion. Since then until last week, I only took the wafer... I took the wine last week, it was in a spiritual setting and really didn't seem that I was taking any risk... it is, after all, the blood of christ. It was meaningful.

At my Monday home group, one of my support group, a guy with 24 years and the sponsor of many, and, I guess, my "grand" sponsor... came up to me. He was at the mass I was at. He asked me about communion. He saw me take the wine... He was trying to be helpful... he said I shouldn't...

Now, I had decided myself, that I didn't need to do that regularly, but I feel that I have the same privilege as any catholic, and that is what was important to me, not so much that I do... know what I mean?

I am disturbed... I appreciate this guys concern, I like him a lot. I don't know how to feel about his comments.

I know how I feel about communion, I am secure in that and have made my own peace with it.

Mark

[Astro]

I think it's up to you and not anyone else Mark, taking Communion is a personal decision.

My thoughts......

1. How about asking one of the priests?

2. I might be mistaken but don't they usually have grape juice for the same purpose?

Edit: You sure it's even real wine they're using, maybe it's NA wine? Seems like there's a lot of children that partake of communion, I don't think they use real wine too often anymore, most of the time it is grape juice.

[Mark75]

In catholic mass, it is wine. No substitutes, it is really a very sacred thing to catholics.

The priest has said that the full benefit is received whether one or both is taken. It is a personal decision. And funny thing is, I kind of decided myself that I would forgo the wine except for very special services...

But I just can't get it out of my head... why did he feel so strongly about what should be a personal decision, like why did he comment at all?

Mark

[barb dwyer]

I agree - you might want to discuss this with your priest and not us.

I mean, it's not like you're grabbin' the chalice outa his hand and barricading yourself in a confessional.

And you might find out it's N/A wine in the first place.

Secondly, the fella who approached you is breaking our rule about minding our OWN side of the street. What you do at your religious ritual... is between you .. and the God of your understanding. He needs to go talk to his OWN sponsor. He also needs to learn how to run his own program better.
Your business.. is YOUR business, hon.
HE... is the one out of line approaching you in the first place.

[Dee74]

I coulda sworn we had a thread about this somewhere before...

Communion is an intensely personal business, Mark.
It's about as personal as it gets.

It's noone elses business what you do.

Whatever you feel about it is the right thing to do.

For me, as a Catholic, I'm bound to believe in transubstantiation - the bread and wine we take at Communion is no longer bread and wine.

I rarely get to take communion these days but it's never been a sobriety issue for me.

D

[tommyk]

Good topic.

Dangerous behavior for the alcoholic.

[Mark75]

Barb, yea, I wasn't sure I should post this question here, but I have grown to trust this SR community with a question such as this... Also, the question was not about whether an AA should take communion wine, I agree entirely that the question is best answered by a priest....

The question was whether an AA should confront another AA about taking communion wine...

Barb... ya know, I thought practically the same thing you did... like I can see it now, I wrestle the chalice out of the priest's hand and run away with it... too funny... lol... barricading myself in the confessional... awesome....

Mark

[barb dwyer]

LOL!

Well, at least I got the point, then - because man, that BOTHERED me. Nothing about the wine bothered me... just that guy making it his business to approach YOU...

[Sugah]

Disclaimer: I don't have personal experience on this specific issue, so I'm not sure if I should even be weighing in. That said, I'm going to anyway

I have a friend who was a _________ (I am drawing a blank on her exact title right now), and part of her duties involved preparing the communion wine. She had been sober (without AA) for quite some time when this began, not even taking the wine in communion, and she said that it occurred to her one day how wasteful it was to dispose of the leftover wine. You know what she did, right? Like the whiskey in the milk.... She also relates how easy her first month of sobriety was -- because she spent it in a coma after an alcohol induced brain aneurysm.

The only related experience I have, Mark, is the manifestation of my alcoholism in pain pill abuse -- and three months sober, I found myself in serious and unavoidable need of them. I came through a very serious injury without a relapse by throwing myself on the mercy of my Higher Power and trusting in the doctors caring for me. It was necessary. There was no alternative, not if I wanted to give my body an opportunity to heal, which my doctor insisted would not happen if I was so stressed with pain. Only you and the God of your understanding know how necessary this part of the ritual is for you. The words, "to thine own self, be true" come to mind. I put my trust in God to bring me through what I had to do. I guess if I were in your position, having been given the guidance (by the priest) that you've had, I would ask myself -- What are my motives? And am I being true to myself?

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[vicarious]

I think the guy was out of line questioning your participation in the religious ritual. It would be akin to someone at work coming up to you and questioning you about something you said in an AA meeting (only akin, I think, but you get the idea).

If you had asked his advice, different story. He was butting into something not his business.

[laurie6781]

Whether you partake of communion or not, whether you partake of the wine or not, is between you and your Spiritual Advisor (You Priest). What medications you take or don't take is between you and your Doctor.

I do believe this fellow was out of line.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

[Pinkcuda]

A lot of AAs will offer a lot of opinions. I have had unwanted opinions offered to me when my sobriety is questioned because I gargle with Listerine. It's really nobodys business but my own.
What is my motivation, and what is my intent. Can I look at myself in the mirror and hold my head high?
I believe any AA is out of line when they dare tell you that you surrendered your right to partake in the religion of your choosing including Communion when you joined AA.
We are sure God wants us to be happy, joyous and free.
Are we truley "Free" if we are held hostage by the mindless drivel of another AA?
That's my two cents.

[barb dwyer]

two cents... and really fresh breath.

[Mark75]

Thank all of you for your comments.

I know it is a rather intense subject, but I really wanted to get right about it. I believe absolutely that this guy's motives were good.... that maybe he feels real strongly about it... maybe he took the communion once and later regretted it, I don't know. He has helped a whole lot of people stay sober for a lot of years. So, I guess none of us are perfect, uh?

I did an inventory on this... I bear no resentment... posting here regarding how I felt about his comments was beneficial. Thank you

I think even tommyk has a good point... it can be dangerous, my motives need to be clear, and in context with the spiritual experience. I think that since I don't always trust my own motives, my decision to take full communion will be contingent on my spiritual condition... But this gets back to the question of taking communion, not an AAs comments on it, and it will best be left for me, God and the help of a priest if I feel the need.

Incidently, I read some excellent threads/posts here in SR archives on the question of communion before my conversion and first communion last Easter. Some comments were extremely helpful and well thought out.... SR is really a special place.

And thanx for the chuckle barb!

Mark

[McGowdog]

Now that we have the "nobody has the right to tell you what to do's" out of the way, I'm going to tell you what I think about the thing for me.

I was Catholic once. I'm not anymore. I go to other church services and they use grape juice for the Body of Christ. Problem solved for me. When I was Catholic and also in A.A., I passed on the wine.

Religion is great. I think it's wonderful. But I'm in A.A., no matter what. I'm quick to point out where religious people are right. I make use of what they offer. But at the end of the day when they stub their toe, they don't drink over it. I do. If my religion was so whippy prior to A.A., why couldn't it keep me sober?

I do A.A. and I'm in a place where I recoil from alcohol, Body of Christ, whatever you want to call it, wine, as from a hot flame. I think God will understand.

[nelco]

I am a Catholic and also in A.A., I pass on the wine. ( Im allergic)

I know people who went back drinking this way.

I was in treatment with a Bishop who uses non alcoholic wine but thats a whole other topic.

To thine own self be true. It does not sit ok with me, an alcoholic...... and at the end of the day thats who I have to live with..............me!!
I slept well last night and would like to continue this pratice, it suits me.

[navysteve]

In catholic mass, it is wine. No substitutes, it is really a very sacred thing to catholics.

Mark,
Obviously the decision is yours, I would suggest you read the Doctors opinion again and talk with your priest ( Tell him who you are). Many Many Many Catholics in AA, and I do know of churches that have substituted juice ( Catholic yes). I think the post is a great one by the way. This is an old debate in AA but one of the few valid ones that have been left unresolved.

Oh yeah, nobody has the right to tell you what to do. At least no one in AA.

[marty888]

Mark, I am catholic and have communion every week, I don't have the wine (never have) but I feel as you are doing it spiritually and it is the blood of christ, it should be your choice. If you are concerned discuss this with your priest. Also pray on it and ask for guidance, in your soul you will know whether it is right or wrong.

[Music]

Hi Mark,
I converted in 2007 and believe me it was a life changing experience. I took the cup at my confirmation at Easter, and only take the cup at Christmas and Easter. I'll continue to do this. As some have said, I do believe that the wine and bread take the form of the body and blood of Christ and even if I do just take the body of Christ, I'm still receiving the blood without having to take the cup. I went to my first mass in 1980 and took the cup, not giving any consideration that it was wine. It scared me but I was at mass with my sponsor and he said, "just remember where you are and why you're here." I've always remember that experience and the reason I'm at mass is not to sneak a drink, it's to be with Jesus Christ and experience the communion with His church. It's your decision to make, but just consider where you are and why you're there.

[CarolD]

Many churches offer a choice between grape juice or wine

You might want to Google transubstantiation for why
the sacrament is celebrated.

My religion uses grape juice only
so I have no problem ...

[shaun00]

Thats a very personal one.

i dont take the wine..

i can see the priest face now...bear in mind i did my first 5 with him.

im sure..in fact i know he understands..lol

im alcoholic........i dont drink...... period..........and thats god given...

god is fully aware of why i dont take the wine in church or any where else..

to be honest im not sure if its alcoholic anymore anyhow.

its a difficult mine field mark.....prayer and careful thought?

god be with you today.

[Boleo]

I don't think of it as a mountain or a mole-hill. More like a unnecessary risk.

Ask the priest if there is a alcohol-free wine alternative?

[Mark75]

Originally Posted by Music

I converted in 2007 and believe me it was a life changing experience. I took the cup at my confirmation at Easter, and only take the cup at Christmas and Easter. I'll continue to do this.

"just remember where you are and why you're here." I've always remember that experience and the reason I'm at mass is not to sneak a drink, it's to be with Jesus Christ and experience the communion with His church.

Sounds nearly exactly like my experience and consciousness on communion wine... thanx for sharing that, music....

I appreciate all of these responses, too many to individually comment on...WOW!!.... it is a delicate, personal, spiritual matter which, I have to say, has been dealt with here in a mature and thoughtful manner. Thank you!!

My struggle was how I should feel about an AA approaching me in a meeting and offering his opinion, unsolicited, that I should not be taking communion wine at mass... as he saw me do the previous Sunday.

However, my mind is clear on this now and I have lost any resentment I may have carried. Just discussing this here has helped... because really I wasn't looking for vindication or vilification... just understanding.

Hoping everyone here has a great Sunday.

Mark

[tomvlll]

Originally Posted by Cubile75

I think I'll post this question here. I thought about posting in the christianity section, but I'm interested in what my fellow AAs think.

I recently converted to catholicism. My wife has been catholic her whole life and our four kids were raised in catholic schools, pre K through 2 kids in college presently. My conversion was something that I was considering for a while. The process became part of my early recovery.

For those who don't know, the Eucharist is central to mass, and catholics believe that the bread and wine are not a representation of the body and blood of christ, but in fact, are... It was this belief that took me many years to understand and embrace.

I took the wine (a taste, not a drink) at my first communion. Since then until last week, I only took the wafer... I took the wine last week, it was in a spiritual setting and really didn't seem that I was taking any risk... it is, after all, the blood of christ. It was meaningful.

At my Monday home group, one of my support group, a guy with 24 years and the sponsor of many, and, I guess, my "grand" sponsor... came up to me. He was at the mass I was at. He asked me about communion. He saw me take the wine... He was trying to be helpful... he said I shouldn't...

Now, I had decided myself, that I didn't need to do that regularly, but I feel that I have the same privilege as any catholic, and that is what was important to me, not so much that I do... know what I mean?

I am disturbed... I appreciate this guys concern, I like him a lot. I don't know how to feel about his comments.

I know how I feel about communion, I am secure in that and have made my own peace with it.

Mark

Mark:

If you took the communion wine becaue you have some voyeuristic need to somehow 'sneak ' a drink under the guise of religion, then you are on dangerous ground. Only you can answer that, Not that I have ever entertained such a thought.

[Music]

I had an experience in 1977, my first year of sobriety. I used to attend a meeting aptly named "the Inventory Group" for obvious reasons. There was a man there named Red, who joined the Episcopal church and became a deacon. He said in order to be a deacon he had to drink the wine. Everyone told him it was risky but he said, "I've been sober for 10 years and I can handle it." Notice his "state of mind." Pride was evident to me. He died drunk several years later. If I believe that alcoholism is manifested in a mental obsession and physical compulsion, I have to believe that certain ways of thinking can put me in a situation that's not healthy, without me even realizing it. I can't condemn the man who warned you Mark. I think he was looking out for your welfare and just giving you something to think about when he made his comment. I'm sure he did it out of love and concern for your safety. I think that's one thing that's missing in todays AA. We're so afraid of offending someone, we sometimes aren't willing to take a chance at the other person's wrath and be honest about what we see or hear them saying. When someone points out something to me, I generally say thanks, give it some thought and then use it or lose it but I never take offence unless he gets pushy or bothersome. Let's lighten up folks. Someone might just say something that saves a life.