Atheists and AA

[ClayTheScribe]

I'm an atheist and I had someone tell me on the Mental Health board that AA could be beneficial to atheists, so I thought I'd share my questions here too. I just don't see how an AA works through these steps without believing in Him:

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.

I've been told atheists can substitute "God" for something like "higher self." But, for example, with 5, why do I need to admit my wrongs to my higher self when my higher self knows what I've done better than me--same thing with God for that matter. It's like asking forgiveness from a God who's already forgiven you before you did your wrong. With 6, that's asking myself to remove my own defects? Asking yourself to remove your defects is not giving yourself up to a higher power. And 11, that's so specific to the Christian God, I'd love to hear somebody spin that one. Sorry to be so cynical, but I really don't see AA working for atheists, but I'm open to advice.

And I'm skeptical if I get into AA, they're gonna try to turn me into a Christian, as others have told me in their experiences, and I'm not having that. I'm also kind of weary of support groups because my problems are so much less than others. Case in point, I went to a dual diagnosis meeting (addiction and mental illness) this week and when I was talking about how I was stressed out about graduating college, one of the people there started laughing, which sent me into a tailspin and almost made me drink later that night. And other people in the group seemed hostile toward me as most of these people came from recovery homes and had much worse drinking and mental disorders than me. I know my problems may seem trivial to people who are worse off, but they still matter to me.

And I know how touchy and defensive folks can be about 12-step, so please go easy on me. I'm actually going to try to go to a young people's AA meeting tomorrow, though I am skeptical.

And I'm 5 days sober! That's actually a long time for me.

Thanks,
Clay

[ClayTheScribe]

Oh and how do atheists in AA follow this one tradition of the Twelve Traditions:

For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

?

[jimhere]

Hi Clay,

Those are good questions.

I know an athiest who has long term sobriety in AA. He also happens to be a vwery spiritual man. He practices the same principles that I try to, principles that are universal to mankind like brotherly love, tolerance, service, etc. I happen to be a "believer," but I don't think he & I have ever got crossways about spiritual matters. In fact, we've been on Twelfth-Step calls together.

Feel free to send me a private message if I can be of service.

[FightingIrish]

Hi Clay,

I'm an agnostic (at best) who has so far been working the A.A. program and participating fully in the A.A. fellowship for the past 22 months.

A.A. does not demand that you believe in anything. There's a good thread on Step Two over on secular 12-step forum that pretty much encapsulates my understanding of "God" as it pertains to the 12 steps.

The key for me is surrendering to the fact that I am powerless over alcohol, that I of myself do not have the resources to stop on my own, and that there is a solution that can work for me, because it has worked for others.

It goes back to Honesty (am I powerless), Open-Mindedness (am I even willing to believe that something I can't comprehend has worked for these other people), and Willingness (am I willing to do these simple steps in order to stay sober.)

Whenever I see "God" in the A.A. literature, it represents for me whatever is beyond my own understanding that is working in the lives of others...for example, the possibility that I too can be sober and happy is a power greater than myself, because I have seen desperately hopeless people become happy, joyous, and free.

My higher power is basically two words: not me.

Michael

[CarolD]

Congratulations on your sober days....

I have no experience to share with you
on being an atheist in AA but......

Welcome to our Alcoholism 12 Step Support Forum

[Pinkcuda]

I don't know anything about Athiesm or being an Agnostic so I'm not going to try to talk you out of it. I will say that I hope you walk in with an open mind and remember that nobody speaks for AA as a whole.

[laurie6781]

Clay, you are going to 'paralyze' yourself with all your 'what if's.' lol

First let me say that AA is NOT group therapy. The Fellowship of AA is a bunch of drunks getting together in a meeting to share HOW they stayed sober today. To share the problem they had and the solution they found, or to share a problem with sobriety they are having and how they are looking for a solution.

Oh there may be a 'bible thumper' or two at a meeting here or there, however, as to the "GOD" thing you are wondering about.

Step 2 says: Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

To me that power can be anything you choose it to be, Mother Earth, The Universe, etc

Step 3 says: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him.

That took me back to a 'power greater than myself.'

Why not go check out some different meetings, instead of relying on 'second hand' information.

Please stay in today, try and put the 'what if's' aside.

Give it a shot. It won't hurt you, just give you an hour here and there, where you are with others who are trying to stay sober TODAY.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

[FightingIrish]

Originally Posted by laurie6781

Clay, you are going to 'paralyze' yourself with all your 'what if's.' lol

I am laughing here, because I just recalled how I stumbled into A.A. like my life depended on it. My primary concern was staying sober, and anything to do with God or spirituality was a distant 100 on the list, at least. I was so not worried about the nuance of higher power vs. doorknob vs. spirit of the universe because I was desperate for an answer to my alcoholism and I did not want to drink anymore.

It was not like buying a Lexus...well, do I want the brushed suede seats, or the matte microfiber... I found that most of my picky concerns, which I would have put forward had I not been trying to avoid dying, were completely irrelevant once I actually got into A.A. and started doing A.A.

And no one was trying to sell it to me or convince me, actually.

M

[paulmh]

Well done on your sober time Clay.

Speaking for this atheist and agnostic in AA - I did the steps when I'd suffered enough in drink. I did them with a mind (and a spirit) that had been jemmied open by booze, with the honesty of desperation and with the willingness of a dying man. The words didn't matter. I didn't go from not believing in G*d to believing in G*d in one fell swoop. And more importantly, no-one asked me to. They asked me to make an honest attempt and lo and behold they worked.

Personally - and with hindsight - I think that the key to the steps is people having suffered enough so that they are willing to try something different - by which I mean they get past their fears of "things happening to them" being less than their fears of "carrying on the way they are". The steps are not an intellectual excercise. They are experiential. They require participation, not detachment and analysis.

Good luck with your meeting!

[tomvlll]

A little history.

The AA program has a very strong Christian influence. The original meetings attended by the cofounders Smith and Wilson were Oxford Group meetings. The Oxford Group practiced first century Christian principles.

AA'ers split off from the Oxford group, first in NY and then Akron. The Akronites still had a very strong Christian influence.

The New Yorkers, who were most responsible fro writing the Big Book, contained alot of folks who were more 'agnostic' in their beliefs. Thus the term God (undeline for emphasis) as we understood him made its way into the steps.

The bottom line is that AA has a long history of skepticism about religion. I would only suggest that you approach AA with an open mind. You may find what you need.

[tommyk]

"And I'm skeptical if I get into AA, they're gonna try to turn me into a Christian, as others have told me in their experiences, and I'm not having that."

AA is comprised of people - and 'they' don't all do anything the same.

If l meet some people in AA who try to turn me into a Christian, I don't pay any attention to them. Just like I wouldn't pay any attention to someone on the street trying to convert me to satanism - just ignore them.

In AA I meet a lot of people, an overwhelming number of people, who are the 'same page' as I am, in that we all need Good Orderly Direction. No religion of ANY kind - just Good Orderly Direction.

If you feel that your life could use some Good Orderly Direction, then the majority of the people in AA might be good for you. Expect to meet the occasional exception to the rule in AA though, 'they' are not all perfect.

I hope you find the strength within yourself to overcome your fears and concerns about the people in AA, and that you can stand up on your own to see for yourself what the people in AA have to offer.

Keep coming back...!!!

[McGowdog]

What about Christians and A.A.? Can Christians be in A.A. and A.A. still not be a religion? My honest experience with that is yes. What's your honest experience with that? Not what others told you.

I was once in A.A., newly sober after a bender after my wife had left me and a Christian guy brought me to his home, introduced me to his family, fed me, friended me, listened to my horrible tales of woe. I had lost everything but my pathetic job and a couple of my old cars; home, two dogs, more than half of the household income... oh yeah! And her, gone. He and his wife listened to me tell them how my wife had been hiding an affair with her coworker and watched me lose my mind... hiding out in A.A. with about 20 months sober... as our marriage fell apart. I did everything to try to keep her. Played volleyball 5 times a week... was in tip top shape, tried to be tolerant of her as she went off and played volleyball tournaments with this guy... finally his wife called me up and reality smacked me in the face.

It was all over and I would have sold my soul to the devil then if it would have got her back. Without her, I was nothing. I would have just as soon of died. I tried to get alcohol back. I drank two days straight around the clock and arose sober... drank myself sober! About 5 days later, a college buddy, one that would be in two of my weddings (I love being married ) asked me to go to his place. I did. He offered me booze. I said, "You don't have enough." He said, "We'll get more." I threw my keys behind his refrigerator, and we commenced. Not long after, oblivion. I vaguely remember sitting on his porch drinking bourbon and Meyers rum and beer, and him telling me that cigar I was smoking was probably gonna make me sick. The next morning, I woke up on his garage floor with puke all around. I went into his home, where he was washing his couch pillow covers... his home wreaked of my puke... and my hands were bloody. We had fought a little bit. He managed to get me into his garage. I spent the next hour dry-heaving into his toilet. I managed to make it into a meeting and God was about the furthest thing from my mind. I hated everybody... with myself leading the pack. I was like a wild animal and had no hope. The meeting I went to was a blur, as I was viciously hung-over. Some guy gave me his phone number and he'd become my next sponsor... one who would fire me about almost 3 years later... when I would drink again. My current sponsor denies it. I'm not very sponsorable... but I'm sober almost 5 and a half years now, so...

But anyways, back to this Christian guy. He and his Christian buddies would have breakfast with me before work and we'd pray before we broke bread... in public... it was weird for me. Then one day at lunch... he asked me why I was still going to A.A. I said because this is how I stay sober. He said it would steer me away from God... that it was wrong. I told him to kiss my ass. He said, "What if you die tonight? Do you want to go to Heaven, or hell?" I said, "What if I get drunk? Will you be there to pick up the pieces, or throw me out into your garage. F-off, buddy!" And he f'd off.

I was living with my soon-to-be-ex-wife's college friends up in Conifer. They took me in. It's not that they turned on her... she just had better things going on and dogged them like they did me. It was late one night and I couldn't sleep. It was the night after I'd drank at my college friends house... the second drunk in a week, and I couldn't sleep. I was sneaking into the kitchen and getting something to drink and my heart was pounding in my chest. I thought I was having a heart attack or something. Irregular heartbeat is normal for me, but this was a painful out of breath feeling. My friend came out and said, "It's 3:00 in the morning. You need to go to bed." He got me water. Came into my room, grabbed my A.A. big book and slammed it on the floor, said, "quit reading this garbage and go to sleep. You're stressing yourself out." He brought their dog into the room and had him climb up on the bed and said, "Here. Just pet Spencer and go to sleep." So I did. What seemed like minutes later... it was like a dream... with light, and warmth, and I have no other way of describing it but to say God touched me and told me I was going to be ok. I would end up in my 500 square foot apt in Englewood near the South Glen mall and would be plugged into the A.A. fellowship and at times, the A.A. program like never before or since.


Now, I go to a pretty hard-core A.A. group and between it and the group it splintered from... they have never ever pushed the Carpenter on me. In fact, they have only encouraged me to seek God in my own way... but to be quick to see where "religious people are right, make use of what they offer"... but to always stay plugged into A.A. They warn me of leaving A.A. and seeking God alone. They say it may work for me, but they've seen many do that and get drunk again.

So yes, they discourage me to leave A.A. But they are the ones who are sober and have remarkable and fulfilling lives. They do steps and it works.

They do all kinds of things that Christians wouldn't dream of; Buddha meditations, Course in Miracles, Yoga, Mentations, direct prayer and mediation with God, ... oh, and some Christian stuff too!

They are, from what I've seen and experienced, masters at separating "religion" from "spirituality".

Yes! I say A.A. is NOT a religion! You can be a Jew and get A.A. You can be a Muslim and get A.A. You can be a pagan and get A.A. You can be an agnostic and get A.A. You can be a Christian and get A.A. Can you be and atheist and remain that way in A.A.? I believe so. It's what I hear.

In fact, Frank McKibbon, God rest his soul, was an atheist and "got it!" He said it was easier for him than a "Believer" because he was forced to choose... from the beginning all the way down the line.

From the beginning, the Believer, the religious person, the Christian has to come to the place that there is no God, or Not God.

Think about your last drunk... those of you that love to do that... How good was your God to you then? Do you think your God is a God that would say, "You're entitled to your pain!"? Sounds a little too liberal for me. That ain't my God. But my God loves me just as much sober as drunk.

I've come to know.

If you can say sober without God, do it. If you can stay sober with God, do it.

[miss communicat]

Originally Posted by paulmh

Well done on your sober time Clay.

Speaking for this atheist and agnostic in AA - I did the steps when I'd suffered enough in drink. I did them with a mind (and a spirit) that had been jemmied open by booze, with the honesty of desperation and with the willingness of a dying man. The words didn't matter. I didn't go from not believing in G*d to believing in G*d in one fell swoop.

Personally - and with hindsight - I think that the key to the steps is people having suffered enough so that they are willing to try something different - by which I mean they get past their fears of "things happening to them" being less than their fears of "carrying on the way they are".

me too. I think the Gift Of Desperation=G.O.D. It can be THAT simple and unreligious. It boils down to willingness. This is a great question. Keep up the willingness and stay sober Clay!

[DesertEyes]

Hello there, Clay, and congratulations on your 5 days

Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe

... I just don't see how an AA works through these steps without believing in Him: ....

It works like this:

1) The AA program clearly states that the _only_ requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking. That's it. Nothing else. If you have the desire then the progam is available to you.

2) The _program_ of AA consists of the 12 steps _exclusively_. Nothing more. All the rest is commentary on how individuals have _adapted_ those steps to their particular needs. Starting with al-anon, then NA, OA, CA and on and on. You are free to adapt those steps your needs as you see fit.

Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe

... I'm also kind of weary of support groups because my problems are so much less than others.....

The program of recovery is _not_ about your problems. It's about overcoming the personal challenges that prevent you from having a life that is happy, joyous and free. For some people, that includes addiction to alcohol, for others it's addition to food, drugs, sex, gambling, etc.

The point at which people decide to join a 12 step program is called "pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization". We do it because nothing else has worked in our lives.

Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe

... one of the people there started laughing, ... And other people in the group seemed hostile toward me ....

Fine. Scratch that group off your list and go try a different one. One thing you are _not_ going to find in a meeting is a person who is _perfect_. Everybody has issues, that's why they are there.

Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe

... But, for example, with 5, why do I need to admit my wrongs to my higher self when ....

Because if you had been able to resolve your issues on your own you would not be here in the first place.

When I started recovery I had tried _everything_ to fix my problems with my own intellect. I failed. I was unable to find _any_ solutions. What I realized thru reading recovery material is that I had been living my life as if _I_ were a Higher Power. I don't try to take out my own tooth when it has a cavity. I don't try to cut open my own leg and fix a broken bone. I go to a Higher Power that is a dentist or a surgeon.

Why then did I insist on "cutting open" my own head to fix my own issues?

The concept of a "higher power" is _not_ some guy with a long beard sitting on a cloud. It is a power higher then _me_. Doesn't have to be any higher than that. A dentist is a power greater than me, when it comes to a toothache. So is a surgeon.

So why not a book? A book that has the collected experience of drunks who managed to not only quit drinking, they actually _stayed_ quit.

If "Good Orderly Direction" is a power greater than me, and that gives me a life that is happy, joyous and free, what more could I want? If the higher power is a shrink, that's good too.

The only thing I need to know about a higher power, is that the higher power is _not_ me.

Clay, welcome to SoberRecovery. You are most welcome here, with whatever beliefs you choose to have, or not have. As long as you are willing to make a better life for yourself, you are one of us and we look forward to hearing your experience in your own recovery.

Mike

[Music]

Hi Clay. Good to see you here. A lot of what you said made me think about my attitude when I came to AA. Although I was brought up in a Christian home, I lost all interest in "God" when I was in my teen years and developed an attitude that a real man was one who could manage his own affairs without the help of an entity he couldn't see, feel or touch, let alone prove the existence of. So for years I tried to manage my life with the help of booze and machoism, supported by fellow sailors who drank and believed much as I did. Eventually I landed in the same spot you're in, wanting to do something about my drinking and yet not wanting to ask a Higher Power, God, or anything else for that matter for help. However, I did ask Jerry. Jerry was my first sponsor, so I turned my will and my life over to the care of Jerry. I too, didn't believe in the doorknob or coffee cup theory. I called Jerry every morning without fail to lay out my agenda for that day and if my day didn't include a meeting, he'd say "I'll pick you up at seven" and hang up. That's the way it went for about three months. Then one day I called Jerry to get together to talk and he said he had a date with his daughter. I was so jealous I couldn't believe it. I talked to him about it and he said something like, "I'm not your higher power and I do have other responsibilities." Well, I was shocked to say the least. What was I to do? I realized by this time that my life had been a shambles because of my decision making process. Things had been going smooth since Jerry had been helping me so now I had to "fish or cut bait." I ventured into the unknown and started to come with my own idea of a higher power. I used to choke on the "god" word, but I heard somewhere that I should ask for help each morning and say "thank you" at night, to what I didn't know. But, it worked. I asked for help to stay sober, and each night I said "thank you." At the point of step four and five, I realized that my problems were of my own making and that the reason I had so much of a problem with admitting my problems was because my degree of humility was lacking. That's why it was important for me to admit my faults to "it" and another human being. "It" already knew but I had to verbalize so I could get humble. You mentioned that in a meeting, someone said something that "almost made you drink." I learned I needed to stop blaming others for my problems. I can't take the credit for the good things and blame the bad things on someone else. Well, long story short, today I believe in God.....a Christian God. It works for me and my prayers for help to stay sober have been answered for over 32 years now. That's my choice and I'm not saying you should or shouldn't. We all have to find out what works for us. If you truly want to stay sober, you have to find out what works for you. You aren't the first atheist in AA and you won't be the last. I just have one more statement. If you truly don't believe in a "God", you should be able to figure out how to get sober all by yourself without worrying about a word, or an idea. AA has helped millions of people for over 75 years, and you're just not that unique that AA won't/can't help you. Work the steps to the best of your ability and you won't drink.

[keithj]

Hi Clay,

My belief when I started the 12 steps of AA was that belief in a higher power was a cute crutch for weak minded people who couldn't face reality on its own. A nice tool to control the sheep. I was a devout atheist who found a spiritual awakening through working AA's steps. As the result of that awakening, I recovered.

Forget what it says on the wall, or in those 12 sentences and work the steps with a knowledeable sponsor who has also had a spiritual awakening. The directions are in the book, not on the wall.

[kurtrambis]

Maybe your question would have been better phrased atheists and the 12 steps. As AA itself, based on my experiences where I live, is much more than just the 12 steps for many people its a community free of alcohol, with people who have gone through your problems and come out the other side. There are meetings all over place.
Not all people in AA do the steps, some are open about not doing it and others, often with good long term sobriety, unfortunately feel compelled to keep quiet.
Some just do the steps to conform and fit in.
There's different types of groups some more 12 step focused than others.
Also not all people do the 12 steps straight away I have heard of some people being in AA for years sober, before they take the steps.
As somebody has already said the only requirement for membership is desire to stop drinking.

[gravity]

I do find our local AA program to be based on Christianity because of the prayers & readings used to open meetings (But there is One who has all power-that One is God. May you find Him now!).

I also find that the 12 steps, as written, require a belief in a Creator of the universe (God's Will, God's removal of shortcomings).

It is what it is.

When I joined AA, I had my doubts about the spiritual aspects of the program and the Christian leaning was initially a turn-off.

But the program works for me. What helps is developing a true appreciation & respect for the beliefs of other people. And I also happen to believe in the Creator.

I like what Jim said about spiritual principles. This is the true foundation of my sobriety. If I live in accordance with spiritual principles, I will stay sober - I'm sure of this. It's about action, how I live my life - not only about my beliefs.

Check out a few meetings, read the Big Book and see how it goes!

[keithj]

Originally Posted by gravity

If I live in accordance with spiritual principles, I will stay sober - I'm sure of this. It's about action, how I live my life - not only about my beliefs.

This is one of the truest statements I've ever heard.

[todd6138]

I feel as soon as you start asking the questions you are well on your way on your spiritual journey. I certainly did not care about these types of questions when I was drinking.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by ClayTheScribe

Oh and how do atheists in AA follow this one tradition of the Twelve Traditions:

For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

?

Wow, I have never know anyone to go to the trouble of seeing how an atheist could work the traditions but it shows that you are willing to go to any length to stay sober. That in itself is a good start.

Here is a list of alternatives to God that I have seen or heard of being used with good results.

Intelligent universe
Mother nature
Greater good of mankind
Great Spirit
The Tao
Group Of Drunks (GOD)

[Ago]

You needn't be a "theist" for AA to work nor believe in an "Intelligent Deity".

My "God as I understand him" is not a deity and in fact does not possess a "willy" but doesn't seem to resent being referred to as "he" or "him" and will actually even respond to "hey you"

I refer you to this thread

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post2275836 (Using Light as an analogy to 12 step work and a higher power)

Read how different people explain their own concept of these issues you are wrestling with

This is just my personal opinion, but I believe that the steps are a mathematical equation for having a spiritual awakening where you have to have a as value "a power greater then yourself" for the integer "God", once you go through steps two and three and have a "value" for the integer "God" you can plug it in whenever you see the word "God", and since the BB says repeatedly "God as we understood him" our variable for that integer can be whatever we choose, provided it's a power greater then ourself and it says from that a beginning can be made.

How I explain it to my sponsees is in that thread.

The thing is, strictly speaking I am both an atheist and an agnostic, however to hear me speak at times you would think I was a Christian, at others a Buddhist, at others a Taoist. I have deeply spiritual beliefs and quite frankly I agree with much of what is said by organized religion now, but the true beauty of AA to me is you can have your "God" and I can have mine, because AA is a spiritual program, not a religious one, and the moment you wrap your mind around that concept you and I could discuss God all night and disagree about nary a point, except in a court of law I would be classified as an atheist/agnostic.

it's super cool, the other thing is my God is my business, and none of yours, and your God is your business, and needn't concern me.

The Spiritual realm is all inclusive for those that seek it.

That means you don't need to believe in God, it just means you need to have an open mind and seek it (the spiritual realm).

This small but extremely pertinent fact about AA saved my life and possibly millions of others, almost everyone I have ever run across anyway.

[Sugah]

Ago, I'd like to borrow some of the above if you don't mind.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[Ago]

Originally Posted by Sugah

Ago, I'd like to borrow some of the above if you don't mind.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

That's what it's for, please feel free

Oh, P.S.

To me it fits in perfectly with and is summed up in step 12

Having HAD a spiritual awakening as THE result of these steps

Then the "spiritual awakening" is defined in the appendices as "the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism"

or the whole thing:

THE terms "spiritual experience" and "spiritual awakening" are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.

Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous.

In the first few chapters a number of sudden revolutionary changes are described. Though it was not our intention to create such an impression, many alcoholics have nevertheless concluded that in order to recover they must acquire an immediate and overwhelming "God-consciousness" followed at once by a vast change in feeling and outlook.

Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent, are by no means the rule. Most of our experiences are what the psychologist William James calls the "educational variety" because they develop slowly over a period of time. Quite often friends of the newcomer are aware of the difference long before he is himself. He finally realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life; that such a change could hardly have been brought about by himself alone. What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self discipline. With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.

Most of us think this awareness of a Power greater than ourselves the essence of spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it "God-consciousness."

Most emhpatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial.

We find that no one need have difficulty with the spiritual side of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.

Every step has "conditions, promises and a prayer"

If you do this like this you get this.

It's literally a mathematical formula, a "radio" for talking to God if you will, who is, as Chuck C puts it, "In the last place we ever thought to look", our own hearts

[ClayTheScribe]

Frankly Ago, I appreciate you trying, but what you said just confused me more than anything else. People have been seemingly bending over backward to try to explain how AA can work without a belief in God which I appreciate but it doesn't really connect with me or seem comfortable. I just got back from my first AA meeting and needless to say, I don't think it's for me. It seemed too cult-like to me (no offense), there was too much God talk, including the prayer, the group was too big and I don't want to have to figure out how to adjust the steps with my beliefs, on top of doing the steps, which are hard enough. I'm gonna stick to going to my therapist and going to LifeRing meetings. The group was much smaller, more rational and I felt more comfortable there. I wouldn't have to worry about going back and forth with a sponsor about coordinating the steps without a belief in God. Plus I really don't think my alcohol problem is bad enough to warrant doing the 12 steps, and no I am not in denial.

Thanks again for your help all,

Clay

P.S.: If you're going to attack me for "bad mouthing" AA, please do it in a private message to me. I don't want to start more of that back and forth crap on the forum. And again, I'm not saying AA is bad, I know it works for millions, just not my style.