Atheists and AA

[McGowdog]

Well we don't need to bad mouth you anyway. You sound like you'll get help with Life Ring and that's great. So you'll probably just sort of find the secular forums more to your liking anyway.

If you don't think you need the 12 steps to get and stay sober, that's great. Denial is more of a treatment center term, not a 12 Step term.

Your dislike for an A.A. meeting and "cult" comment has no bearing whatsoever on the rest of us. That's your opinion. I've heard quite a lot of opinions flying around about A.A. being a cult and not just from you.

That's ok with me. I'm pretty thick-skinned these days. You're new to sobriety. You are afforded some grace on this sobriety path.

Good luck to you and go well.

[Pinkcuda]

I'm glad you went to a meeting to form your own opinion. I am of the belief that we can't get past step 2 if we can't muster up some sort of belief in God. Doesn't mean it can't be done but I don't have the gift of being able to cipher through what's in front of me in black and white and come up with some way that it's possible, let alone explain it to someone else.
Nothing wrong with Life Ring. I'm sure you'll do well.

[tommyk]

"I really don't think my alcohol problem is bad enough to warrant doing the 12 steps..."

If you ever change your mind, the 12 steps will be ready and waiting for you.

I went to an AA meeting once - it wasn't for me. Too big, too this, too that.

Then I went to a few more and found a bunch of AA meetings that were for me.

Kind of like driving through one town in a state and saying "I went to that state and it wasn't for me".

For me - I chose my own level of misery... I think we all do to some extent.

Find whatever works for you, and work it. Keep coming back.

[Ago]

Frankly Ago, I appreciate you trying, but what you said just confused me more than anything else. People have been seemingly bending over backward to try to explain how AA can work without a belief in God which I appreciate but it doesn't really connect with me or seem comfortable. I just got back from my first AA meeting and needless to say, I don't think it's for me. It seemed too cult-like to me (no offense), there was too much God talk, including the prayer, the group was too big and I don't want to have to figure out how to adjust the steps with my beliefs, on top of doing the steps, which are hard enough. I'm gonna stick to going to my therapist and going to LifeRing meetings. The group was much smaller, more rational and I felt more comfortable there. I wouldn't have to worry about going back and forth with a sponsor about coordinating the steps without a belief in God. Plus I really don't think my alcohol problem is bad enough to warrant doing the 12 steps, and no I am not in denial.

Thanks again for your help all,

Clay

P.S.: If you're going to attack me for "bad mouthing" AA, please do it in a private message to me. I don't want to start more of that back and forth crap on the forum. And again, I'm not saying AA is bad, I know it works for millions, just not my style.

Thanks for responding, let me know if you ever want me to explain what I said to you in english

Your path is your own my brother, We don't have a monopoly on recovery we just have something that has worked with us.

Actually after I posted that stuff yesterday I almost went back and just deleted it and said don't worry about it until you get to steps 2 and 3, too much information too fast is never helpful, I apologize.

I would only like to say because you don't understand something it doesn't make it "less rational" it makes it something you don't understand. Please do let me know if you ever want to talk about this stuff in a PM, and I won't preach or try to convert (mainly because I'm strictly speaking an agnostic/gnostic/atheist), I don't have anything to convert you TO), simply discuss recovery concepts in a relaxed and safe setting where you don't have to worry about people being "touchy" about twelve step stuff, nor worry about people accusing you of AA bashing.

If you ever change your mind about AA, we are still here, and if you don't, we are still here, and we are all trudging the same road to happy destiny and I hope to meet you again and sincerely hope you find what I have, which is freedom from bondage, no matter where you choose to seek.

If your "alcohol problem" isn't bad enough to warrant the twelve steps, that's cool, if it gets bad enough to warrant the twelve steps, that's cool too, no judgment here, the proof is in the pudding, if what you does works, keep doing it, if it doesn't work, do something different, we don't care what you do as long as you do it and find relief from your alcohol problem.

Thing is, I can state with complete assurance I am an atheist, but can also state with utter conviction I have a conscious contact with a "power greater then myself" or a "God as you understand him" if you will.

Keep in touch with us here and let us know how you are doing, we do care, we really do.

[LosingmyMisery]

My first AA meeting freaked me out. I shared the same feelings as you. However, I kept going because I needed help and I knew recovery wasn't about my likes and dislikes, it was about life and death. I learned that you can not judge what AA is really about by attending one meeting. AA is a program and a process and it takes time. I'm glad you have other options. Keep us posted on how it works for you. AA isn't for everyone. The key is to stop drinking. If other programs work, I say hurray!

[MycoolFitz]

Hey Clay, no argument from me, I basically agree. I still atend because it helps keep my feet on the ground, keeps me humble, and most importantly builds my tolerance towards others and their point of view. Of course, it is only one of many things I practice to stay sober--Agnostic Buddhist practice is real central for me.

“I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers”
Kahlil
__________________________________________________ __________
Namaste

[AW2486]

Clay,

I think one thing we all have in common, we are tired of seeing people die from alcoholism. If I were an atheist I would need to go to AA with a open mind, and a lot of patience. Find the similarities rather than the differences. Maybe look for another atheist that is achieving sobriety in AA, and find out how they do it.

I wish you best of luck on your road where ever it leads.

Andy

[Ago]

Oh, I would like to add a few things if that's OK

I'm also kind of weary of support groups because my problems are so much less than others. Case in point, I went to a dual diagnosis meeting (addiction and mental illness) this week and when I was talking about how I was stressed out about graduating college, one of the people there started laughing, which sent me into a tailspin and almost made me drink later that night.

One thing that happens in AA meetings is people share, for example, how stressed out they are about graduating college, and they will describe the inner workings of their mind and the room will be ROARING with laughter, they aren't laughing AT the person, they are laughing WITH the person because they relate to that person's thinking.

I went to a meeting recently where a young man flew home because his sister had told him his father was on his deathbed, when he got there it turned out his sister was over-reacting a bit, and being a bit of a drama queen, so he was telling how he was so p1ssed off because he had rehearsed this whole "deathbed speech" and didn't get to use it and how he was embarrassed to go home and tell his friends his father wasn't dead.

The room was ROLLING, not because we were laughing AT him, but because we recognized our thinking in his.

Anytime someone laughs when I am sharing I know that I have reached that person and they are relating to what I am saying, not they think I am an idiot.

other people in the group seemed hostile toward me as most of these people came from recovery homes and had much worse drinking and mental disorders than me. I know my problems may seem trivial to people who are worse off, but they still matter to me.

Your problems aren't trivial, alcoholism kills people, it's my opinion and forgive me for giving it, but it's my opinion that they aren't trivializing your problems but you are.

Your thinking will put you in your grave in the most painful and tedious way possible, that's what not being able to stop drinking is, a direct result of your thinking, which results in you taking a drink, which causes more drinking, which causes more mental distress, which leads to more drinking.

This is life and death for you Clay. Your life or your death.

It's not trivial.

I'm actually going to try to go to a young people's AA meeting tomorrow, though I am skeptical.

And I'm skeptical if I get into AA, they're gonna try to turn me into a Christian, as others have told me in their experiences, and I'm not having that.

I just got back from my first AA meeting and needless to say, I don't think it's for me.

The only reason it would be "needless to say" that AA is not for you is you had made up your mind before you ever stepped foot in the meeting.

By the way, the FEW times someone has tried to force "their" God on me, I have told them in the most forceful way possible, "step down bish, my God will kick your god's DAD's @ss"

then I will wander away and they may hear something like: mutter mumble kung fu kick to the HAID on yer god's monkey @ss mutter mumble christian deity jesus this bish mutter mumble

You get to choose your own concept and everyone there will respect that right, because it's a "God Given" right in AA to choose your own concept of a "power greater then yourself"

Anyone who tells you differently has a different agenda, they get to have their own God, you get to have yours, that's all there is to it, also your God is NONE of their F'ing business, it can be one of the "transformers" and they don't get to make a peep about it. They may argue with you about it, but I just shrug and smile and look all Dumbledore or Gandhi at him, drives em nuts.

I am not saying AA IS for you, but one thing I will suggest, is your thinking is the root of your problems, if "your thinking" worked you wouldn't be seeking for help with "alcoholism", you would have control of it, whatever program you decide is going to suggest new ideas I will ask that you be open to those ideas, as they can save your life.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

Investigating something with a closed mind is no different then contempt prior to investigation, the only thing I will ask from you is to have an open mind, no matter what path you take. What you have been doing hasn't worked, the only way something IS going to work is if you are willing to try something different.

Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.

Whatever path you take in my experience these three things are absolutely indispensable in order to "recover" from alcoholism or stop drinking, whatever phrase you prefer.

Plus I really don't think my alcohol problem is bad enough to warrant doing the 12 steps, and no I am not in denial.

I would take a look at the following statement and rethink my previous statement. It5 may not be "serious enough" to warrant a 12 step program, but it seems serious enough for you to seek help and to keep you drunk on what appears to be a near daily basis.

I'm 5 days sober! That's actually a long time for me.

5 days IS terrific, congratulations, but 5 days being a "long time" for you to not drink is indicative of a pretty serious alcohol "habit", for me, minimizing my drinking is the exact definition of denial, and as long as I minimized my drinking, it kept "minimizing" me, because I kept doing it.

For me, when I tried to either "control" my drinking, or even "quit drinking" I couldn't because I had lost control of my drinking already.

It's good to "meet" you Clay, I look forward to "talking" to you some more. If what you do works for you, please come tell me about it, I am always eager to learn new things, I don't know too much about these other programs and would be interested in learning from you, if what you do DOESN'T work for you, I look forward to hearing from you and I can tell what worked for me when I was in your shoes, an atheist/agnostic that was out of answers that couldn't quit drinking and was faced squarely with the whole "GAWD" issue.

I'm a lot happier now, indescribably so, one way or another lets walk this path together Clay.

[jimhere]

Looks to me like Clay has made up his mind so we are back to preaching at the choir here.

[tommyk]

Originally Posted by jimhere

Looks to me like Clay has made up his mind so we are back to preaching at the choir here.

Sometimes us choirboys need re-inforcement of our recovery options though, right?

We had a vsitor from Forida attend two meetings here, she said, "Wow, the meetings you people have here are GREAT, it gives me some motiviation to look for better meetings in my area... the meetings I've been to so far were terrible." So... Clay does have a point - we don't know what the meetings are like in his area, right? We are fortunate enough to enjoy the great meeting we attend.

[CarolD]

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences
I'm certain we all wish Clay well on his journey.

Time to move on. This thread is closed.

If anyone wants to discuss different types
of AA meetings....please do begin a thread.