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Is there Buddhism in the 12th Step?

Old 09-13-2009, 06:34 PM
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There is if you look for it.

If it helps you, find it.

I encountered a spiritual awakening, which can be described in any way you like.

That's the beauty of the steps in my eyes.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Puddy View Post
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that Dharma meant "purpose" and that fulfilling your dharma meant fulfilling your purpose in life. I don't know that much about it though.
Hi Puddy,

Well, if we are going to throw all our eggs in the basket that there is something more to life than the billion to one possibility ( the chance that Richard Dawkins points to in his book that a tide pool containing amino acids combined with lightning and created the first DNA or RNA molecule) that all is completely meaningless, how many additional purposes to life should one expect there to be?

As MyCoolFitz points out, the Bhudda was pointing out the problem of thinking there was more than one reason for life. Jesus was pointing out the same problem. Since the stoics were teaching something quite similar in Jesus's day, (i.e. "let go and let God") Jesus probably got his awakening from them IMO, and spent the rest of his life trying to get the truth of it across to others.

Bill W. certainly saw the same truth. He filled the Twelve and Twelve with it. His teachings begin with the BigBook®: "The point is that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines." That, Puddy, is the single purpose for which all life is created if in fact it is created.

In the Twelve and Twelve, step 10, third page, Bill has the audacity to write: "It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us." What is it that's wrong? We are selfish and self-centered. We have big egos and therefore have a great deal of ego-neediness. We spend most of our time trying to get our ego-needs filled and protecting our egos from other people's assaults upon it at all costs. This is animal. It is, as the first sentence in step 5 (12&12) states, "natural." And that same sentence also points to the only possible purpose of life. The wise and truthful teachings of daily living reduce the size of all egos. The only question is, am I willing to internalize my daily bread of humbling truths, or will I fight their internalization right to the point of needing to use mental anguish pain killers to manage the pain of that fighting?

With the reduction in size of the ego, the truth of humility takes its place. Slowly, an increment of experience at a time, the wisdom of humility replaces the ignorance of egoism. Read the 2nd paragraph of step 7 and see for yourself what the term, "growing along spiritual lines" meant to Bill W. See how he could state that, "we will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows. Self seeking will slip away."

Today, there's a fellow making himself a multi-millionaire pointing out that the one purpose in living doesn't change, and hopefully, his books will make it possible for those outside 12 step programs to not need to go down wrong roads to the point where they are finally willing to go to any lengths to get off them in order to become willing to grow along spiritual lines. His name is Eckhart Tolle and his book that I read was, "A New Earth." I didn't learn anything new, but would recommend the book to anyone sick and tired of being sick and tired that can't put a finger on why they feel that way. He has his own vocabulary of "spiritual words" but his base is the same. Spiritual Growth is all about getting rid of the ego.

As that growth materializes, the love available to the universe grows. Who needs for there to be any more purpose to life than that? Love and Blessings - one of
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:54 PM
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I certainly dont think Bill W. saw the same truth that Jesus or the Buddha saw. (i dont even think Jesus and the Buddha saw the same truth but thats a different story)
Bill W. found a way for one drunk to help another drunk come to live a spiritual life and quit drinking for good. Thats all. He wasnt a holy man, and to elevate him to such status doesnt really do much good for AA..
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Old 09-13-2009, 11:30 PM
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Glad you made that wonderful point. Now I can go to bed.

Goodnight all.
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Old 09-14-2009, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by preta View Post
I certainly dont think Bill W. saw the same truth that Jesus or the Buddha saw. (i dont even think Jesus and the Buddha saw the same truth but thats a different story)
Bill W. found a way for one drunk to help another drunk come to live a spiritual life and quit drinking for good. Thats all. He wasnt a holy man, and to elevate him to such status doesnt really do much good for AA..
Hi preta,

You may be right. My sharing is for people who have a similar IQ to my own, who came to the program with similar pre-sobriety ideas to my own, who are near worshippers of logic as I am, and who are willing to go to any lengths to stay sober despite the many difficulties they might have with the "God concept" as I have done. My sharing obviously won't be of use to those who have a firm and unshakeable belief in a God Who they came to know through participation within one of the 7 or 8 major religions of the world. That's why diversity is valuable, isn't it. I can help a few people with my views, you can help a few people with your views, etc. It keeps the mind of AA always open to new truth. The teaching portion of the BigBook® includes in its final message the words, "We realize we know only a little." Me too, Peta. I realize I know but a little. The unknown, to my belief, is far, far, far, from being a void. The only thing I can do in order to feel honest within myself is to share what seems to me to be the truth. But you are right, I certainly don't know the entire truth any more than does anyone else. All the information is simply not out there yet.

The BigBook® Appendix labelled "Spiritual Experience" speaks to the necessity of maintaining attitudes of Willingness, honesty, and open mindedness." I expect that means something different to you than it does to me. I don't know what may be good for AA and what may be bad, but I do know that not only on these message boards but when I speak at meetings, there are many who have thanked me for sharing whatever it was that I shared that day, and that helps me to believe my open-minded sharing is usually a help, rather than a hindrance. The fact that you felt that my post was elevating Bill W. to the status of whatever it means to be a holy man, doesn't mean that that was my intent. It wasn't. And the same applies to Eckhart Tolle, bless his heart. Love and Blessings - one of
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Old 09-14-2009, 07:21 AM
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Yeah, I was wondering where in the world this
Thats all. He wasnt a holy man, and to elevate him to such status doesnt really do much good for AA..
came from.

Bill W. was instrumental in getting a book printed that described the experience that lead to the sobriety of a bunch of people following specific instructions. He certainly remained human during that whole time.

No Holy Man necessary. No cult here. As far as not seeing the same Truth that Jesus and buddha saw, how do you know? Maybe he did see Truth during his religious experience. Who cares? Do these particular things and live this certain way and follow these certain rules and you won't want to drink. You mention the Appendix in the back of the book Spiritual Experience. It's not even necessary. Look at the last two paragraphs of We Agnostics;

"Even so has God restored us all to our right minds. To this man (Bill), the revelation was sudden. Some of us grow into it more slowly. But He has come to all who have honestly sought Him.

When we drew near to Him He disclosed Himself to us!"

See the bolding I put in there? See how "all" is not in caps but "Him" is? Bill was merely part of the "all" which is less than the "Him".

As far as the usefulness of these other 7 major religions... how sober did they keep you prior to A.A.? I do "be quick to point out where religious people are right...make us of what they offer" as part of my 11th Step. I don't know about y'all. I stay plugged into A.A. ... no matter what.
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Old 09-14-2009, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by preta View Post
I certainly dont think Bill W. saw the same truth that Jesus or the Buddha saw. (i dont even think Jesus and the Buddha saw the same truth but thats a different story)
Bill W. found a way for one drunk to help another drunk come to live a spiritual life and quit drinking for good. Thats all. He wasnt a holy man, and to elevate him to such status doesnt really do much good for AA..

Truth is Truth. It is seen through different eyes, but it is still Truth.

The Carpenter said that "I and The Father are one." When asked if he was the son of God he replied with a simple "I Am." The Truth.

Every teacher , saint, and mystic down through the centuries, from whatever tradition or culture, has said the same thing in different words.
Jim
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:43 AM
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[QUOTE=preta;2363784]jnana in a Buddhist context is a pali word for a state of meditative absorption. The 8 paths you speak of are a hindu yogic system, and isnt Buddhism at all.
QUOTE]
We could dialog the finer points herein quite deeply. Suffice it say, although I appreciate your viewpoint, I resprctfully disagree with you, and rest knowing we (thankfully!) don't need to agree on the definitions, parameters, and prerequisites of certain systems of thought outside of AA.

Back to the original poster's query: Yes, I believe there is what some call Buddhistic awareness in the 12 steps, as the 12 Steps are guides to living a peaceful, aware, spiritual, alcohol-free life. And, yes. It could just as easily be called Christed awareness, or Vedic awareness, or Judaic spiritual awareness or fully rational awareness. Names are interchangeable for the experience that is pretty unnameable.
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:30 AM
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I agree that Truth is Truth.

It also seems to frequently be True that, while "the opposite of a little truth is a lie, the opposite of a big Truth is another Truth."

Insofar as "there are many paths to the top of the mountain but the view is always the same," it would be rather strange if there were not considerable overlap in both the practices and the principles of the various paths.

Fr. Ed Dowling sought out Bill W. because of the extensive similarities he noticed between the 12 Steps and the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignacious.

At the end of his book Man's Search for Meaning, Nazi concentration camp survivor Viktor Frankl provides an interesting -- though far from complete -- "list" of some of the major themes underlying all or most of the world's great religions and philosophies. Haven't looked at in a long time, but, from what I do rmember, the 12 Steps "fit" with all the rest quite nicely.

In the final analysis, I'm not sure what or how much difference any of this makes -- The important thing is that one chooses one's path or paths and one walks it to the best of one's ability. As long as one isn't trying to walk contradictory paths at the same time and/or trying to keep anyone else from walking his/her chosen path, my guess is it's all good.....and it will get one where one is supposed to be going.

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Old 09-14-2009, 10:53 AM
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Did I read that truth is truth?!??!?

I didn't even know that it could have a different definition, sort of "either is or is not"..

Either way, I have never seen any conflict with Buddhism and the twelve steps, and I have never seen conflict with Christianity and Buddhism for that matter...

There is a great book: Going Home: Jesus and Buddha as Brothers (Thich Nhat Hanh) ~ I am going to a talk he is giving this weekend...looking forward to it very much. If anyone is interested in the "truth" these two men saw, that book is a good start.
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Old 09-14-2009, 11:00 AM
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I guess you could see Budda in the 12th Step, I see Jesus in Step 12. To each his own. Blessings!
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Old 09-14-2009, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by lostbutterfly View Post
If the major religions would look for similarities, and not their differences, they would find they have a lot in common!
Probably be a lot more harmonious world too.

I like what the Kundalini yogis say - we are presently "in transition to a heart-centered world where people will recognize their divinity, take their indwelling Power back, and fulfill their Dharma, their purpose in life".

Beats the crap out of preparing for Armageddon for me. I don't want to live in any more fear, I've lived in a hundred forms of it for decades. Besides, I don't know any God that mean-spirited.
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Old 09-16-2009, 06:11 PM
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As far as the usefulness of these other 7 major religions... how sober did they keep you prior to A.A.? I do "be quick to point out where religious people are right...make us of what they offer" as part of my 11th Step. I don't know about y'all. I stay plugged into A.A. ... no matter what.[/QUOTE]

Hi Mcgowdog,

I certainly don't want to get into some major dispute here. I've already pointed out that AA has been working in Japan for over 30 years where most of the members pray to Buddha, and worship The Good.

I'd be amazed also if I couldn't go to any decent sized city in India and find an AA meeting, where the Hindus would be praying to any number of manifestations of God.

As a student of religious studies at San Diego State (before they did away with that Major and after sobriety) and after taking a course entitled, "Jesus as a major figure," I saw quite clearly that every one of the religions I was introduced to could lead its people to the necessary spiritual growth delineated in the second paragraph of step 7 (12&12 - written 14 years after "The first edition" of the BigBook® - and thus written by a sober man with 14 years of additional growth along spiritual lines who had realized just what had happened to those first alkies who stayed sober) I also saw at that time that most of those same religions could be misused. The exclusivity factor inherent in most of them (My religion is the right religion so yours must be wrong) could provide a group ego trip which would actually inhibit growth in the direction of humiity. Jesus spoke to that concern when he told the young Jewish man, "Follow me and let their dead bury their dead."

When one's mind is slammed shut to an acceptance of the worth of all paths which lead from egoism towards humility, they become spiritually dead. Just as do those who are sure they know what is good and what is evil. That is why I think the Honesty, Open-mindedness and Willingness should not only be capitalized, but be a mainstay in the program of every AA member. But then again . . . I do recognize that there are, as Bill wrote in step 7, many who can surrender to the steps of AA to the point of being able to stay sober without sticking with them to the point of learning how to feel calm, serene, and at home in the universe (the state of humility pointed to in the plaque on Dr. Bob's desk (Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers pg. 222).

Finally, I'm wondering a bit about the SR guidance you refer to in your final signature. Are you saying they advise that I don't quote from the 12&12 and Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers? I doubt that. You'll need to show me. Love and Blessings - Chuck

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Last edited by CarolD; 09-17-2009 at 05:41 AM. Reason: Added Source per SR guideline
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Old 09-17-2009, 04:48 AM
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Sorry about that next to last paragraph in my last input where I start off with "one mind" and then go plural . Dammit, still not perfect. Which reminds me of a paragraph in "AS BILL SEES IT" #159:

"Apparently the course of relative humility and progress will have to lie somewhere between these extremes [See whole thought]. In our slow progress away from rebellion, true perfection is doubtless several millenia away."

Might that not indicate that Bill was thinking along Buddhist and Hindu lines of reincarnation complete with Karma and final state of becoming Perfect love, truth, wisdom, and understanding . . . thus blending with all else that is in the same state? (Bill calls working towards that state: "to grow in the likeness and image of God," but doesn't the similarity of the two final goals stand out? I certainly make use of a God who is perfect in the areas of Love, Truth, Wisdom, and Understanding. Whether I am right or wrong to do so, that is the God who has had the power to keep me sober and serene of spirit, with daily peace of mind and sense of being at home in the universe for thirty-four years now. Believe me, that power has never been mine.

I also like the closing thought on the previous page (158): "In such an atmosphere the orthodox, the unorthodox, and the unbeliever mix happily and usefully together. An opportunity for spiritual growth is open to all." That's AA! Love and Blessings - one of


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Last edited by CarolD; 09-17-2009 at 05:37 AM. Reason: Added Source per SR guideline
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