Is there Buddhism in the 12th Step?

[McGowdog]

Yeah, I was wondering where in the world this

Thats all. He wasnt a holy man, and to elevate him to such status doesnt really do much good for AA..

came from.

Bill W. was instrumental in getting a book printed that described the experience that lead to the sobriety of a bunch of people following specific instructions. He certainly remained human during that whole time.

No Holy Man necessary. No cult here. As far as not seeing the same Truth that Jesus and buddha saw, how do you know? Maybe he did see Truth during his religious experience. Who cares? Do these particular things and live this certain way and follow these certain rules and you won't want to drink. You mention the Appendix in the back of the book Spiritual Experience. It's not even necessary. Look at the last two paragraphs of We Agnostics;

"Even so has God restored us all to our right minds. To this man (Bill), the revelation was sudden. Some of us grow into it more slowly. But He has come to all who have honestly sought Him.

When we drew near to Him He disclosed Himself to us!"

See the bolding I put in there? See how "all" is not in caps but "Him" is? Bill was merely part of the "all" which is less than the "Him".

As far as the usefulness of these other 7 major religions... how sober did they keep you prior to A.A.? I do "be quick to point out where religious people are right...make us of what they offer" as part of my 11th Step. I don't know about y'all. I stay plugged into A.A. ... no matter what.

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by preta

I certainly dont think Bill W. saw the same truth that Jesus or the Buddha saw. (i dont even think Jesus and the Buddha saw the same truth but thats a different story)
Bill W. found a way for one drunk to help another drunk come to live a spiritual life and quit drinking for good. Thats all. He wasnt a holy man, and to elevate him to such status doesnt really do much good for AA..

Truth is Truth. It is seen through different eyes, but it is still Truth.

The Carpenter said that "I and The Father are one." When asked if he was the son of God he replied with a simple "I Am." The Truth.

Every teacher , saint, and mystic down through the centuries, from whatever tradition or culture, has said the same thing in different words.
Jim

[miss communicat]

[QUOTE=preta;2363784]jnana in a Buddhist context is a pali word for a state of meditative absorption. The 8 paths you speak of are a hindu yogic system, and isnt Buddhism at all.
QUOTE]
We could dialog the finer points herein quite deeply. Suffice it say, although I appreciate your viewpoint, I resprctfully disagree with you, and rest knowing we (thankfully!) don't need to agree on the definitions, parameters, and prerequisites of certain systems of thought outside of AA.

Back to the original poster's query: Yes, I believe there is what some call Buddhistic awareness in the 12 steps, as the 12 Steps are guides to living a peaceful, aware, spiritual, alcohol-free life. And, yes. It could just as easily be called Christed awareness, or Vedic awareness, or Judaic spiritual awareness or fully rational awareness. Names are interchangeable for the experience that is pretty unnameable.

[freya]

I agree that Truth is Truth.

It also seems to frequently be True that, while "the opposite of a little truth is a lie, the opposite of a big Truth is another Truth."

Insofar as "there are many paths to the top of the mountain but the view is always the same," it would be rather strange if there were not considerable overlap in both the practices and the principles of the various paths.

Fr. Ed Dowling sought out Bill W. because of the extensive similarities he noticed between the 12 Steps and the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignacious.

At the end of his book Man's Search for Meaning, Nazi concentration camp survivor Viktor Frankl provides an interesting -- though far from complete -- "list" of some of the major themes underlying all or most of the world's great religions and philosophies. Haven't looked at in a long time, but, from what I do rmember, the 12 Steps "fit" with all the rest quite nicely.

In the final analysis, I'm not sure what or how much difference any of this makes -- The important thing is that one chooses one's path or paths and one walks it to the best of one's ability. As long as one isn't trying to walk contradictory paths at the same time and/or trying to keep anyone else from walking his/her chosen path, my guess is it's all good.....and it will get one where one is supposed to be going.

freya

[sugErspun]

Did I read that truth is truth?!??!?

I didn't even know that it could have a different definition, sort of "either is or is not"..

Either way, I have never seen any conflict with Buddhism and the twelve steps, and I have never seen conflict with Christianity and Buddhism for that matter...

There is a great book: Going Home: Jesus and Buddha as Brothers (Thich Nhat Hanh) ~ I am going to a talk he is giving this weekend...looking forward to it very much. If anyone is interested in the "truth" these two men saw, that book is a good start.

[Lily]

I guess you could see Budda in the 12th Step, I see Jesus in Step 12. To each his own. Blessings!

[Puddy]

Originally Posted by lostbutterfly

If the major religions would look for similarities, and not their differences, they would find they have a lot in common!

Probably be a lot more harmonious world too.

I like what the Kundalini yogis say - we are presently "in transition to a heart-centered world where people will recognize their divinity, take their indwelling Power back, and fulfill their Dharma, their purpose in life".

Beats the crap out of preparing for Armageddon for me. I don't want to live in any more fear, I've lived in a hundred forms of it for decades. Besides, I don't know any God that mean-spirited.

[one of]

As far as the usefulness of these other 7 major religions... how sober did they keep you prior to A.A.? I do "be quick to point out where religious people are right...make us of what they offer" as part of my 11th Step. I don't know about y'all. I stay plugged into A.A. ... no matter what.[/QUOTE]

Hi Mcgowdog,

I certainly don't want to get into some major dispute here. I've already pointed out that AA has been working in Japan for over 30 years where most of the members pray to Buddha, and worship The Good.

I'd be amazed also if I couldn't go to any decent sized city in India and find an AA meeting, where the Hindus would be praying to any number of manifestations of God.

As a student of religious studies at San Diego State (before they did away with that Major and after sobriety) and after taking a course entitled, "Jesus as a major figure," I saw quite clearly that every one of the religions I was introduced to could lead its people to the necessary spiritual growth delineated in the second paragraph of step 7 (12&12 - written 14 years after "The first edition" of the BigBook® - and thus written by a sober man with 14 years of additional growth along spiritual lines who had realized just what had happened to those first alkies who stayed sober) I also saw at that time that most of those same religions could be misused. The exclusivity factor inherent in most of them (My religion is the right religion so yours must be wrong) could provide a group ego trip which would actually inhibit growth in the direction of humiity. Jesus spoke to that concern when he told the young Jewish man, "Follow me and let their dead bury their dead."

When one's mind is slammed shut to an acceptance of the worth of all paths which lead from egoism towards humility, they become spiritually dead. Just as do those who are sure they know what is good and what is evil. That is why I think the Honesty, Open-mindedness and Willingness should not only be capitalized, but be a mainstay in the program of every AA member. But then again . . . I do recognize that there are, as Bill wrote in step 7, many who can surrender to the steps of AA to the point of being able to stay sober without sticking with them to the point of learning how to feel calm, serene, and at home in the universe (the state of humility pointed to in the plaque on Dr. Bob's desk (Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers pg. 222).

Finally, I'm wondering a bit about the SR guidance you refer to in your final signature. Are you saying they advise that I don't quote from the 12&12 and Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers? I doubt that. You'll need to show me. Love and Blessings - Chuck

Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers
Copyright AAWS

[one of]

Sorry about that next to last paragraph in my last input where I start off with "one mind" and then go plural . Dammit, still not perfect. Which reminds me of a paragraph in "AS BILL SEES IT" #159:

"Apparently the course of relative humility and progress will have to lie somewhere between these extremes [See whole thought]. In our slow progress away from rebellion, true perfection is doubtless several millenia away."

Might that not indicate that Bill was thinking along Buddhist and Hindu lines of reincarnation complete with Karma and final state of becoming Perfect love, truth, wisdom, and understanding . . . thus blending with all else that is in the same state? (Bill calls working towards that state: "to grow in the likeness and image of God," but doesn't the similarity of the two final goals stand out? I certainly make use of a God who is perfect in the areas of Love, Truth, Wisdom, and Understanding. Whether I am right or wrong to do so, that is the God who has had the power to keep me sober and serene of spirit, with daily peace of mind and sense of being at home in the universe for thirty-four years now. Believe me, that power has never been mine.

I also like the closing thought on the previous page (158): "In such an atmosphere the orthodox, the unorthodox, and the unbeliever mix happily and usefully together. An opportunity for spiritual growth is open to all." That's AA! Love and Blessings - one of


AsBill Sees It
Copyright AAWS