people who tell you..

[24hrsAday]

..for your own good how to stay sober and run "your program" in my opinion i think everybody does it a bit different.. my late sponsor said more than a few times "there is no wrong way to stay sober" (he had over 30 years when he died) *another of his quotes "the recovery process is every bit as progressive as the affliction"

[emmanuel2012]

I hear this,
Everyone has their own way to stay sober, specifically.
If however, I attend an AA meeting, I'm going to expect,
Or at least hear the AA message, that is, peoples experience
Strength and hope with the 12 steps of AA.

Just as, since you posted this in the 12-step support messageboard,
You might expect a response from someone like me who will
Point out the danger of self-propulsion.
I would definately not be here typing this if it has not nearly
Killed me living a sober life of self-will run riot.

I'm glad you pointed this out, and I'm not disagreeing with you,
It has just been my experience that MY program,
The one that I designed by myself, to stay sober,
Did not work.
These steps work by attraction rathe than promotion
However, so ill just shut up now LOL

[Music]

I hear you 24. My first sponsor told me time after time that "his" program might get me drunk. Obviously, "his" program was based on the AA program of working the steps, but what he meant was if I tried to do things the exact way he did them, I might have a problem. He followed this up with, "you wouldn't go into Sears, take a suit off the rack, pay for it and walk out without trying it on." So, we try things and see if it fits. Another good point here is that as long as I'm trying things to stay sober, it's pretty hard to get drunk. Your sponsor's other point about sobriety being progressive is also very true. This is why time, committment and constant vigilence is so important. I have to work at staying sober every bit as hard as I worked at staying drunk. For me, this is definately a day to day proposition. Thanks for your sharing.

[jimhere]

From the original lithograph manuscript of the book Alcoholics Anonymous:

This is from Chapter 5. "Now we think you can take it. Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as YOUR program of recovery."

That means take the steps and have a personal experience with God. Not do them the way you want or think they should be done.

In a lot of the meetings that I go to, when you share what you've done, the people who haven't done the steps get all upset because they think that you are telling them what to do. It doesn't matter to me if you do the steps or not.
Jim

[keithj]

I would never presume to tell another how to take the steps. I like to go right out of the book, taking my directions from the actual words printed there in a very literal fashion. If somebody else, however, finds worksheets or gratitude lists, or listing ways their life was unamanageable, I have no qualms or opinions on that.

I do feel that taking the steps is a must. All of them, in order. It's not optional. This is what AA is. This is our program of recovery. Any personal program that doesn't require taking those steps is not an AA program. That personal program might work just fine for any particular individual, and that's great. The AA program (taking the steps) is the common solution on which can all agree.

[123bubblegum123]

I leaned on AA/NA for my first 3 weeks of sobriety. Once
I started seeing I could actually maintain sober life,
and once I got a little connected and also
the fog and haze of drugs/alcohol left, I noticed
that AA/NA was too cult like for me, at least
right now. I did work with a sponsor in the past,
getting up to step 7, yes I even got through
my 4th step hehe, but AA still wasn't helping.

I still attend meetings, especially if I find myself
getting cocky or complacent in sobriety because
meetings remind me of how bad it was for me
when I was using. I find that coming to this
website and maintaining healthy friendships
are the key to my sobriety. As long as I
have trustworthy people to keep me grounded,
I can stay sober.

Everyone has their own success story.
It often upsets me how closed-minded
the AA sector is where I live,
how you MUST do everything
they say or else you will not stay clean.

There is a reason they do that though.
For people who have lost everything,
had no place to go, nothing to believe in,
AA/NA becomes a second home, a new
religion, and practically a way of life.

You decide how to life your life. Just
live it sober and everything will work out fine

Rach

[tommyk]

Newcomers please take note, NO offense to anyone:

This is an open forum and you are going to see some opinions stated as fact.

Unfortunately these opinions are NOT fact.

Please attend the AA meetings in your area, and when you get there...

... take what you want and leave the rest.

Seek there whatever help YOU need to get and stay sober. If anyone tells you what you have to do or must do, ignore them, they are just wherever they are in their own recovery, they mean no harm.

Keep coming back, keep going back.

Once again - this is NOT intended to be offensive, but more as a welcoming for newcomers to form their own opinions of what AA can do for them and their problems.

[sugErspun]

I completely understand that there is a sense of relief that people who have not known sobriety get when they get into the rooms and "feel at home". Perhaps there are people who are happy, seemingly have turned their lives around..

AA was the name of a book at one time, the fellowship took it's name from that book ~ therefore I look back to the source to see what AA is really about...and even though those folks may seem like they are bullying, or predicting that someone will drink again if they do not do the steps ~ try to understand that if people like me thought they could stay sober by just hanging around the right people, avoiding "slippery" places, if I just "managed well"..I wouldn't need the steps, nor would I need AA.

I experienced step 1 more than I admitted it. The admission was really about seeing the truth of my condition without fear for the first time...I WILL DRINK AGAIN and for me to drink is to die, or worse. Now ~ there are these groups of folks who were just like me, and now they are free. If they say (and the book uses the word "must" more than most people I know), you need to do xxxx. I was lucky enough to become willing to do these things...wether it was the promise of recovering, or that I just didn't care anymore..I did, I do- these things.

I have alcoholism. I am as hopeless as this Bill character. It's going to need a miracle for me to NOT get drunk. The book lays out some heavy promises if you do and experience the things that the folks who wrote it did. and it asks only one thing:

"We beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start."

I think that has more to do with "action" than fellowship. It is not closed mindedness ~ they are simply stating that AA is about action, not meetings...our very lives depend on it.


AA qoutes taken from Big Book Online Fourth Edition

[tkdan]

If it were not for the freedom I have to choose how to follow the suggestions layed out in the BB this alcoholic would've picked up already. That freedom is exactly what makes it easy for ME to follow the suggestions. The feeling that it is my choice, and that it is MY program of recovery is what gets me through each and every day without a drink. For me the steps are essential for MY sobriety.

[McGowdog]

It's no big secret that the A.A. program of action requires some work. There are some things we need to do. There are some things that are "required" of us... or "suggested" if that's fluffier for you... to get the desired results.

It may seem like a cult to you or religious or like an opinion... Funny thing about opinion is this; if there's something I want to do, I operate on it as fact. But if there's something I don't want to do, I can dispell it as opinion.

Fact, opinion, cult, whatever. This is what we do. The A.A. program is written out in black on white. It's etched in history. There it is. Take it or leave it.

If you want to do it, get in. If you don't, that's fine too.

Most people would rather be shown what to do, not told what to do. That's human nature.

A.A. is pretty tolerant that way. You can do this stuff or not. Read Chapter 7 some time and see how tolerant and gentle their approach is. When discussing the program of Alcoholics Anonymous to the new prospect, no pressure was put on them whatsoever. But once the alcoholic decides in, it's time to Rock and Roll! If they decide to baulk down the road, they are to be reminded of stuff like, "Remember it was agreed at the beginning we would go to any lengths for victory over alcohol." [The squigly writting is the book's, not mine.]

"If he is sincerely interested and wants to see you again, ask him to read this book in the interval. After doing that, he may decide for himself whether he wants to go on. He should not be pushed or prodded by you, his wife, or his friends. If he is to find God, the desire must come from within."

Here's what the book says about approaches other than A.A.: "If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us." [That right there debunks any A.A. as a Religion or Cult talk.]

"Suppose now you are making your second visit to a man. He has read this volume and says he is prepared to go through with the Twelve Steps of the program of recovery." Now... in the spirit of this topic from the OP;

"Having had the experience yourself, you can give him much practical advise."

So telling somebody, advising them... sometimes there's a difference and sometimes there's not.

How does the saying go? If you don't want a haircut, don't be hangin' around the barber shop.

[Boleo]

Some people have a small Monkey on their back and can use any old program to stay sober so long as they practice it diligently and stay motivated. For them there is no WRONG way.

Some people have a 900 lb. Gorilla on their back and need a Higher-Power to stay sober.
For them there are an infinite number of WRONG ways.

Those who assume that it is safe for everyone to use the least powerful tools to stay sober would probably argue that seat-belts are for extremists.

[keithj]

Originally Posted by tommyk

Please attend the AA meetings in your area, and when you get there...

... take what you want and leave the rest.

Tommy,

This interests me. It's the reason I found this site in the first place. And I know it's a hot button issue. I've got no desire to get into any big arguments. I do have a desire, though, to understand your viewpoint.

I believe that the absolute most helpful thing I can do for a newcomer to AA is to tell them that I was a hopeless drunk, that I took all of the 12 steps and, as the result of a spiritual awakening, have recovered.

I think the least helpful thing I can do for that same newcomer is to tell them to do whatever they want in AA. I'm all for anyone recovering by any way that works. Seriously. That's why I encourage taking the steps. It seems to work for just about everyone I come across.

I don't make this claim in a vaccuum. And I don't feel the need to be the defender of AA. It doesn't need my efforts. I just see people recovering through the 12 steps. I've never seen anyone harmed by them.

When you work with new guys, do you tell them to do whatever part of the steps appeals to them, or do you have them take all 12? Do you make the steps optional?

I'm really not trying to be facetious. The approach I take is very much a take it or leave it, but here's what I had to do, and here's what other AAs have had to do in order to recover.

[FightingIrish]

If I am not mistaken, Bill W. was a balker, no? He pshawed as soon as Ebby T. started talking about God, didn't he?

Most new guys I run into immediately throw up the same disclaimer, as did I, but I have met no one who wasn't willing to get started on the steps. Have you?

I have found that, when going through the steps with someone, one at a time, taking each one on its own merit, not worrying about what's coming next, the person gradually grows in awareness and acceptance. They have an experience, as everyone likes to say.

So are there really people out there who review the steps like a menu and say, "I'l have one through three, hold the four and five, with a side of six and seven and ten through twelve for dessert?"

It just seems like a straw man argument to say there are people who pick and choose, like it's 90% of the population.

I know people who take a long time to begin, who don't get a sponsor to begin with, or who spend two years looking for the "right" sponsor, whose sponsors take them on the five-year plan, who leave A.A. altogether midway through, who go back out, who change sponsors like they change their underwear.

And you know what? They are free to do so. Alcohol is the great convincer.

[24hrsAday]

i do believe that it "takes what it takes" some people stick around A.A. and some don't..

[trucker]

i cant remember my sponsor ever telling me what to do..apart from quit moaning...lol

i do remember asking him how he stays sober without going round the twist.

his sobriety attracted me.......because he smiled and laughed alot...as silly as that sounds it was a big deal for me.

i wanted what he had.......the bit between his ears......the calmness.

he knew that he had to attract newcomers rather than promote himself.

he also said.......this is what i did and this is what i do.

i never was great with people "telling" me what to do.

its not just the message its how its wrapped............was for me anyhow.

these days i also realize the importance of...."i need you as much as you need me lad"

[Puddy]

I like what this one guy said...

If I hang out in a bakery and read a recipe on a box for cake mix for cake, and take no action on the box, no cake.

If I hang out in a lot of meetings, and read the book, and take no action on the book, no recovery.

I'll get temporary relief from the meeting, but the untreated alcoholism grows until I get no relief at all, not even from the meeting. Just like I got no relief from the bottle anymore at the final stages of my drinking.

All of this will kill me if I am an alcoholic. Drinking or not. And it almost did.

[24hrsAday]

good reply's thank you all.. i'm on my way to A.A. for morning group!

[emmanuel2012]

Originally Posted by 123bubblegum123

I leaned on AA/NA for my first 3 weeks of sobriety. Once
I started seeing I could actually maintain sober life,
and once I got a little connected and also
the fog and haze of drugs/alcohol left, I noticed
that AA/NA was too cult like for me, at least
right now. I did work with a sponsor in the past,
getting up to step 7, yes I even got through
my 4th step hehe, but AA still wasn't helping.

I still attend meetings, especially if I find myself
getting cocky or complacent in sobriety because
meetings remind me of how bad it was for me
when I was using. I find that coming to this
website and maintaining healthy friendships
are the key to my sobriety. As long as I
have trustworthy people to keep me grounded,
I can stay sober.

Everyone has their own success story.
It often upsets me how closed-minded
the AA sector is where I live,
how you MUST do everything
they say or else you will not stay clean.

There is a reason they do that though.
For people who have lost everything,
had no place to go, nothing to believe in,
AA/NA becomes a second home, a new
religion, and practically a way of life.

You decide how to life your life. Just
live it sober and everything will work out fine

Rach

Rach,

I am the type of person
That would walk in a pit of fire,
Before doing something someone else tells me to do,
Without any good reason, that I can understand.
I am defiant. You can't tell me nothing!!
(unless it actually makes sense)

I appreciate the honesty and can relate.
Good advice in this thread too,
(Take what you want and leave the rest)

In the 12 and 12, on step 2, there is
Solid support for choosing AA/NA
As a *temporary* higher power.

My opinion, and its a FACT that this is my opinion, (ha)
Is that you don't need meetings to stay sober.
To ME, today, I need a few books, a sponsor, a higher power
Tommorow, I might need to find a newcoming alcoholic to help.

In memory, I hated the apparent fact that I needed to go to meeings to stay sober.
That, was my own prison of mind. For, where in the literature,
Does it say that I need to go to AA meetings to stay sober?
Nowhere!!!!!! I just THOUGHT that.

WOW...

I look at meetings as a chance to help others.
I don't go to a meeting for my daily medicine.
If I think that today I'm not feeling like a good
conduit of the aa message, or just plain don't feel good,
Ill stay at home and work on my contact with God.
Then I may better help others in another way.

I've walked out of meetings that I felt were not
Being helpful on my path to achieve a better life,
That seemed not only a waste of time, but also
A threat to my own recovery. I felt better to
Have a cigarrette outside and read the literature.
Sticking around the curb, I found someone else
Who perhaps felt the same, and we carried the
Messages to each other, having a little meeting
Just between me him and God.

The WE of AA: Me and God. Anyone else that I can
Help is a blessing, and ill be happy to help, if they
Seek help. Finding a sponsor, finding a sponsee,
Free coffee, and sometimes doughnuts, are the
Major benefitss of an AA meeting (to me).
Sharing my experience, I hope that helps too.

Fellowship is great, but can seem cultlike.
But, one person helping another person
Is the only reason why AA is still alive today
(Else, if it didn't help anyone, oops, I guess I have the wrong book)

[keithj]

Originally Posted by FightingIrish

but I have met no one who wasn't willing to get started on the steps. Have you?

By the hundreds. No joke. Let's not even include those who come in with court cards. (I have nothing against court cards, and many folks court ordered do, in fact, get into step work). I see many people who come in, enjoy the company and the coffee, and the sharing of their problems.

I can only guess at the reason for their lack of interest in taking the steps, but I bet that one factor is because they hear very little about it in the meetings they attend. It's almost like the message is, 'here is AA, and by the way, some of those hard core folks take the steps.' The message is a form of 'take what you need and leave the rest', so many people leave out the steps. On the other hand, I don't see anybody in either of the two solution based meetings I attend regularly that doesn't actively do step work. I'd guess it would be uncomfortable to attend those meetings and feel like you didn't fit in.

Originally Posted by FightingIrish

So are there really people out there who review the steps like a menu and say, "I'l have one through three, hold the four and five, with a side of six and seven and ten through twelve for dessert?"

That's a good point, Irish. No, I don't really see people picking and choosing like that. More commonly, I see people admit they are an alcoholic, have a belief in a higher power, and ask that higher power to make their life better and remove their problems. I'm not sure if they know what it means to be an alcoholic as it describes in the first 43 pages. I'm not sure if they have followed any of the directions indicated for steps 2 and 3. And the 4th step fade is very common. So, I see a very 'off the wall' attempt at 1-3 and little else.

I don't see it as a straw man argument. I'd make a bet that the majority of people at mainstream meetings have not taken all the steps. It's nothing against them. I think many don't see the steps as the program of AA. And it just might be because of the mixed message that is propogated in the rooms.

Originally Posted by FightingIrish

And you know what? They are free to do so. Alcohol is the great convincer.

I totally agree with you here. They are free to do so. But I've interacted with enough people that have had their eyes opened by finding a solution based meeting to believe that the mixed message is a detriment. They hear a message of spiritual awakening as the result of the 12 steps, and they've never heard that before, despite being in the rooms of AA for months or years.

So yes, they are free to do with the information what they want. But they have to hear the information in the first place. If the message is more along the lines of 'do what you want', then most do what they want.

Honestly, I do see people get sober without taking the steps. Being in the rooms is enough for them. And I also see people suffer for years of trying to stay sober by just being in the rooms. Isn't AA supposed to offer a solution to those people?

If my message isn't somwhere along the lines of 'I was a hopeless alkie, I took the steps, I recovered,' then I'm not being all that helpful to those people. If my message is more like, 'stick around and see if something rubs off,' I might just be harmful to them.

Thanks for your feedback, Irish.

[tommyk]

What works for some doesn't always work for others.

The 12 steps changed my entire life. But when I first came to the rooms I wasn't going to do the steps or get a sponsor, I wasn't ready yet.

People said, "Okay, just keep coming back...". I found that easy enough, so I did.

I just kept going back... eventually things fell into place in their own time.

Will what worked for me work for everybody? Hell no but keep coming back...!

Because if they don't keep coming back, first & foremost, nothing in the program will work for them, right?

[McGowdog]

I can see your point, Tommy. I came in and attracted to the kind of people who do steps and still managed to get caught up in the fellowship of A.A. more than the program and I drank. Then I gave it another shot, found hardlinded A.A. and stuck with that and something happened and I drank.

Some would look at that and say, "Well, it took what it took." Others would say, "You did something wrong." In fact, many told me I was the type who would struggle with the spiritual part of the program. They would say things like "Don't analyze, utilize." But then even others would say something like, "Maybe it's not you. Maybe it's A.A."

Either way you look at it, I finally made it and I ain't looking back... except as my experience may help someone new down the road.

I hear there are people in A.A. who are 2-steppers, and they are very effective in pitching newcomers. I assume they mean step 1 - step 12. I knew a guy who said his sponsor told him to focus on 2 and 11. All I know about that is that would be dangerous for me. I'm a thorough guy, and I only know the 1 through 12 method. So if I get the opportunity to "show" somebody what I've done, that's all I know to show them.

I know a guy... a newcomer, young person, who was also a chronic slipper, who has more sobriety than he's ever had; about 120 days. He recently has found a new job and seems to be doing well. But he's stuck on his 4th Step and we've lectured him enough... it's up to him now whether he finishes and gets that 5th stepped. It would be a shame if he blows it off, procrastinates it further, and/or drinks over it. I feel for his sponsor too. It's affecting him too. We've been working more with him than the other guy, because he's in pain and he wants freedom from this situation. A person can get stuck on amends just the same way. Ask a guy who drank again and comes back in what step they were on... I know a guy who was stuck on amends. He came back in, made the amends, and has been sober ever since.

[24hrsAday]

one thing i must add.. "stick with the winners" at my home group there are many old timers with long periods of sobriety.. they have saved my ass more than a few times with their experience!

[keithj]

Originally Posted by 24hrsAday

one thing i must add.. "stick with the winners" at my home group

Some of my home group members share a little joke of "stick with the losers." The losers are them, the guys that sat in meetings, dry or wet, wondering why they couldn't get better. Everybody else seemed to get better, and they were still feeling like sh*t. They must just be losers.

The losers are the ones that have found they have to work the steps. Day at a time sobriety wasn't satisfying. They needed a 4th dimension thing.

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by keithj

Some of my home group members share a little joke of "stick with the losers." The losers are them, the guys that sat in meetings, dry or wet, wondering why they couldn't get better. Everybody else seemed to get better, and they were still feeling like sh*t. They must just be losers.

The losers are the ones that have found they have to work the steps. Day at a time sobriety wasn't satisfying. They needed a 4th dimension thing.

Definitely.

I didn't come to AA because I'm a winner and I didn't take the steps because I'm a winner.

Drinking alcohol brought me to AA and trying to live without drinking alcohol brought me to the steps.

It isn't my virtues that bring me to God.
Jim

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by keithj

The losers are the ones that have found they have to work the steps. Day at a time sobriety wasn't satisfying. They needed a 4th dimension thing.

One of the first slogans that I heard at that meeting was "stick with the winners" which I interpreted as meaning the old timers with the biggest token collection. Unfortunately at this meeting the senior members said things like; the spiritual part of the program was optional, getting a sponsor was optional, working the steps was optional. The mantra for nearly everyone at this meeting (including the 30+ year old-timers) was “I must keep the painful memories of my last drunk fresh in my mind or I will drink again”

What I did not know at the time and did not find out for nearly 2 years was that nurturing painful memories is not recovery. It is a psychological trick used to turn pain into motivation. There is nothing spiritual about it and it is the least reliable way to stay sober. The other psychological tip they had was; “work with newcomers to hear how bad it can be for those still drinking". Again there was nothing spiritual about it; it was not even 12th step work. It was just a ruse to hear fresh war-stories.

There were many more tricks and tips like living in meetings 10 - 20 hours a week and swapping slogans and drunk-a-logs to stay motivated one-day-at-a-time. It turned out that most of these so-called winners never even read the Big Book or read it once and put it back on the shelf.

I am the "real alcoholic" described in the Big Book on page 24. I cannot choose not to drink one-day-at-a-time because I have simply lost the power of choice. I relapsed dozens of times because I thought that "I" was somehow supposed to be managing my own sobriety.

I now know that the promises are real and lead to a "Release" from obsession. The real winners do not suffer one-day-at-a-time nurturing painful memories.