Does any meetings share ESH anymore?

[todd6138]

I go to a clubhouse mostly for AA meetings out of necessity; it seems that over time, more and more people are sharing "at" other people during the meeting, or giving opinions on how to run your recovery based on rehab principles or public opinion, rather than Big Book. I thought you were supposed to be able to come in and share an honest though without being openly criticized during the meeting. Heaven help you if you bring up the topic for the day, because than every share will be directed at you and your 2 minutes of personal info you gave them. I always try not to give advice rather than just share what has happened to me. But i feel like it is getting harder and harder to open up to anyone in fear of being attacked. So I mostly shut up during meetings and just talk to my sponsor; but I fell like it is a shame.

[kelsh]

I have had that happen to me but it was only one or two people that did it when they came to the meeting...so if they were at the same meeting I was, I just quit sharing at that meeting.

It is unnerving to have someone be critical towards you when you have shared some part of your life and what happened in a similar circumstance. I worked very hard to stay sober & I did not like it when someone picked apart how I was working my program.

I have been sober 20 years so have seen a lot go on at the tables. I always disliked the "Big Book Thumpers" that felt their way was the only way to get sober and stay sober.

We all are different people with the same illness but learn different ways & what works for one might not work for others. AA was the biggest part of my staying sober but I utilized some other tools of recovery along my way to a stable sober life that I enjoy each and every day. I still use the Serenity Prayer every day or even more than once or twice in a day. It has been the one "important" part of my recovery.

kelsh

[McGowdog]

Sounds like a sick group or a sick meeting.

I know of a few groups in town where your chair person comes with a strong topic out of the steps themselves or the 12 traditions long form, and you're encouraged to share YOUR current experience with that topic.

I myself like big book thumpers, step Nazis, hardliners, whatever you want to call them. These are merely people who "do the 12 steps" and have nothing to argue about because they follow the book. If they say something that's not in the book, they are wrong and are not a very good big book thumper, but a "self thumper".

If you've got a group that does steps once a year, like it says in the book, there's not much dead weight or pontificating on what they think is in the 12 steps or reciting a war story from a long past experience.

This is the Alcoholism-12 Step Support thread and this is what it's all about.

I'd take my 5 years of sobriety of doing steps yearly over someone with say 20 years who doesn't do steps regularly because that's like 1 year of sobriety repeated 20 times. We've seen this happen.

[trucker]

I have been considering this for some time.

AA here abouts is much as you describe...i choose not to attend some.

i get bored with the bs....t party.....no solution only problems meetings.

BUT.....what of the newcomer........do we leave them to suck up this nonsense?....dont i have a responsibility to share a message of hope.

Dont i have a responsibility to introduce newcomers to the program of recovery.....am i going to stop going because it bores me.

lately Ive been walking into some of those meetings........sharing a message of hope and talking of a program of recovery.

Maybe....hopefully one of those 90 in 90 newcomers will listen and realize
that there is vastly more than fellowship available.

sadly lots go back out here........surprised that meetings ain't keeping them sober.

no one took the time to........deliver a message of recovery... rather a message of therapy.

keep sharing that there is a solution......and ignore the frowns.

[IO Storm]

I am a thumper...sorry, kelsh, but...I am totally against "crosstalk."

I have seen "know it alls" throw in their two cents of wisdom ..directed at persons

who have shared, and have seen these become become embarrassed, red faced,

heck..it happened to one of my friends recently. Sure, the advice was good..but it put

her on the spot, and would have been better given privately (if the adviser had the

guts to do so.) Sometimes the advice is taken well...but, who really likes a know it all?

We are there to share (our own) story, and how it can benefit others.

Unless we are asking advice..no comments should be made affirming or negating another member's share

as wrong or right. I admit I slip up sometimes and say..."-----, I really like what you said...",

and I think that is okay. Maybe yes, maybe no.

As for any criticism given openly to a member during a meeting?

If the secretary doesn't address the problem...the member always has the option to

say.."take your own inventory"....

[ananda]

well... i just go to meetings and share my ESH regardless of whetehr it is a mirror image of the bb or not....i try to use my own words as much as possible and i try not to direct my comments at other people (especially not in those subtle ways we can all do that).

I was drawn to AA imediately because where i got sober that was the standard....a person could share their personal expereince and no one was there to argue it, fix it or any of that stuff..they just shared theirs when it was there turn.....I try to do the same in my conversations outside of the aa rooms. Seems that more learning and growing happens in that sort of conversation

If a meeting is just people repeating words out of a book or pointing out the error of others ways....i just go to a differnt meeting and that works so far

[hope3]

I try to kepp it in the I, I remember to share My experience, strength and hope.

What I was like, what happened, and what I am like now.....

None of this is giving advice....

However, if someone asks me for advice, if I have any, I'll share..

Love and hope,
hope3

[Pinkcuda]

I've been doing a lot of reading and researching lately and I have discovered one thing. The programs of Life Ring, Smart and Rational Recovery are alive and well. Unfortunately they are alive and well inside the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous. Only for one reason. Well, a couple reasons. First reason is that AA has meetings in every community and it's the only place to go. Second reason, You don't have to do the God thing. You can rely on yourself. Third, we like to talk about our problems. Fourth, because we allow it!
Are we getting sober? Some of us are. Is AA the scapegoat for all the failures? You bet it is. Mainly because nobody says I tried Life Ring, Smart and RR even though that's exactly what they did. The sign on the door says A.A. so naturally they say "I tried A.A. and it didn't work.
Tradition one says that this shouldn't be allowed to contuinue in the rooms of AA because all the failures give AA a black eye!

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by ananda

....i try to use my own words as much as possible and i try not to direct my comments at other people...

Using your own words sounds great. I'll do ya one better. Use your own experience, one within the current year, and it's all fresh.

[bballdad]

thats one reason I rarely attend discussion meetings Todd
and I never share personal info at a meeting unless it is a speakers meeting and I have to talk or I believe it will help someone there and then I am careful what I say.

A lot of those discussion meetings here have someone who will throw out a "problem they are having" and then most of the crowd will try to manage their life for them by telling them what they should do.
it`s pure non sense and a lot of times pure insanity.Give me the books anyday

[tommyk]

When/if I bring up a topic close to me personally, in a meeting , I expect to receive feedback.

And I can handle it very well... or I don't bring up the particular topic.

If it isn't a public meeting topic - I should be discussing it with my sponsor, right?

Just my ES&H.

[FightingIrish]

I have never been to a meeting like that. I guess that's a good thing. We do have a couple speaker/topic meetings, where the speaker qualifies and then throws out a topic usually related in some way to their message. I like those. I find the people who tend to drone on about their problems will do so in any meeting where people are allowed to share.

There's one guy...this is so bad...my friend and I count the number of times he refers to his therapist in his shares. He always does. And he will even do this at anniversary meetings, where any sharing is customarily (around here anyway) a tribute type thing to the celebrants. He'll be like, "congratulations on your year...so today, I was talking to my therapist, and..."

But I guess this isn't really on topic. My therapist says I should listen more.

Originally Posted by bballdad

thats one reason I rarely attend discussion meetings Todd
and I never share personal info at a meeting unless it is a speakers meeting and I have to talk or I believe it will help someone there and then I am careful what I say.

A lot of those discussion meetings here have someone who will throw out a "problem they are having" and then most of the crowd will try to manage their life for them by telling them what they should do.
it`s pure non sense and a lot of times pure insanity.Give me the books anyday

[IO Storm]

Lol Fighting Irish...that was funny.

I would be rubbing my feet together under the table, trying to hide them.

[AW2486]

Sometimes I see that, But most of the time it is usually somebody sharing their ESH about something that I don't feel good about myself or am struggling with, and I take it that they are talking to me when they are not.

Healthy meetings that follow guidelines, "no crosstalk allowed" - "what you see/hear here - let it stay here" - "If the meeting is big keep your share short" ect.. The meetings I go to read the guidelines before each meeting and for the most part they don't have any problems.

[emmanuel2012]

My favorite meeting is called "Precisely How We have Recovered"
and it is a bit different. It gets real scientific and intense..as we
Plow through the Doctors Opinion through Working with others,
That's only the first 100 pages, probably about once a year,
We probably only get through 1.5 pages per meeting,
Because we examine it both Literally AND Figuratively.

Some of the areas best 12 steppers attend this meeting,
It is where I found my sponsor and the founder of this
Meeting was my previous sponsor. It is a very strict ESH
Atmosphere, you will get stared down, and blatantly
Interrupted if you go off the 1.5 pages we are talking about.

Interrupted? Yes.. its not considered crosstalk, because
We are discussing On Topic, conversating even,
About the particular section of the literature.
We all have said our names at the beginning of
The meeting, and so we are encouraged to share
Our experience(in a general way), strength and hope,
as it relates to the passage we are reading.
I believe this format is called Dutch style..
Speak as often as you need to,
Limit things to ESH of the TOPIC.

Most of the areas "big book thumpers" are here,
And I feel strong messages here.
No other area meeting is quite as intense.

Fellowship, is inherent, as we all get to know each other,
But no one can bullshit a bullshitter,
If you haven't had a spiritual experience
As a result of these steps.. this is the meeting
To find people who have.

We say things like, on the 4th step..
"Why even do any of these columns at all,
If you didn't think a resentment is gonna kill you?"

And
"If you have been coming to meetings for so long
And don't think you're an alcohlic, maybe you should
Try some controlled drinking."

And
We seem to think that if you've been coming to meetings
For a couple years or more, and haven't completed the 12 steps,
Then you might be doomed. AA is then probably your higher power,
Fear and Fellowship is keeping you sober, and we're sorry
That you haven't gotten the message. Let's keep reading.

I think every town needs a meeting like this.
This has been my experience strength and hope,
Thanks for letting me share.

[Music]

I've learned over the years that clubs aren't necessarily the best place to go to meetings. Point being that people who attend club meetings day after day tend to get too know each other too well and instead of being an AA meeting it becomes like a neighborhood get-together where everyone knows everything about everyone else. "Farmiliarity breads contempt." Cliches develope and intimacy causes problems. People get the feeling that because they see the same people every day, it gives them special privileges that seeing people once a week or so, doesn't lend to. So, I don't frequent clubs often. It's too easy to get caught up in the social BS and forget the primary purpose. The club takes on the atmosphere of a bar or tavern without the booze.

[jimhere]

I agree with Music.

But I also believe that God doesn't put a lit candle in a light place. So I do go to the club about once every few weeks or so. But I don't hang out there. I don't care how spiritually fit you are, the atmosphere of such places will eventually suck the life from you.

[keithj]

I find that when I feel someone is sharing at me, it's usually because I know I'm not doing what they are doing. For good or bad, I recognize the difference in what they do and what I do.

Sometimes, that's a good thing. When it becomes glaringly obvious that another person is not using a spiritual solution for their alcoholism, I can't help but see that difference. If I subsequently share how that spiritual solution works in my life, it may be perceived as sharing at someone. Is it? I'm just sharing my experience with using the principles in my life. But if someone is NOT using those principles in their life, it seems natural to take offense.

It's a challenge sometimes. And over-thinking it has not proven beneficial to me. Things go well when I rely on the old standard of 'tell the truth'.

Oh, and yes, really solid meetings do exist all over the place. At least in my area, they are not typically the 5:30 open discussion meetings. They are the meetings where a few people might have a Big Book with them.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by emmanuel2012

My favorite meeting is called "Precisely How We have Recovered"
and it is a bit different.

It's not just a "bit" different! It sounds like a whole different animal and an awesome meeting!

You are lucky to have it.

Keith, I know what you mean. I got back from a retreat a couple of months ago and went to a treatment center meeting and the topic was actually prayer and meditation. I was so fired up on meditation, I shared my experience with doing daily 20 and 40 minute meditations and when I was done, this guy shared "at me" as he stared me down and talked about how you shouldn't tell anybody else in the "program" what to do. Then I think he went on to share about gratitude and fear.

I had the same kind of response when I talked about how I did a 4th Step in another meeting, when a guy from the treatment center asked about how to write a 4th Step.

If we can't talk about our recent experience in doing one of those 12 Steps, what are we supposed to share on?

It's been my understanding that when someone shares at or attacks another member in a meeting, that they are the one who is hurting... and they usually have a talking to after the meeting.

No place is perfect.

[jimhere]

It isn't about experience, strength, & hope anyway. That phrase comes from the Forward to The Third Edition. Actually it originally came from The GrapeVine, which judging by its content truly is our meeting in print. The preamble that most groups use comes from The GrapeVine as well. You know, the preamble that states the our primary purpose is to stay sober and to help others "achieve" sobriety, which is in total contradiction with our Fifth Tradition that states that our primary purpose is to carry our message to the alcoholic that still suffers. Not stay sober. Besides that sobriety isn't an achievement, it is a gift, or at least a by-product.

So, it is not ES&H, but "What I was like" (Drinking and before the steps), "What happened" (My experience with God through the steps), and "What I am like now (What's my current experience?). The only topic there should ever be in an AA meeting.
Jim

Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition

[McGowdog]

I disagree with you on the "gift" part, but I'll meet you half-way on the by-product.

Your revelation was sudden while mine "grew more slowly", but it came to me because I honestly sought God.

I think grace is part of it, but not all of it. I may one day see as you do. Some see it this way, some see it that way.

I think it's funny that you just debunked the "ESH" mantra and the "preamble" mantra. We have our own preamble in our meeting. Something to the effect of;

"The How it Works Group is dedicated to doing the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous on an annual basis, the 12 Traditions Long Form, health, happiness, prosperity, and helping the alcoholic who still suffers."

Something like that.

I suppose you're gonna tell us you don't believe in the Tooth Fairy either.

[sugErspun]

I stopped going to clubs for regular meetings just before I got sober...I have gone back since as I had complained about how 'bad' the meetings were ~ how it seemed (as Music so perfectly put) they were just like bars without booze.

The folks I complained to didn't pay much attention to my opinion, rather they asked "What are you bringing to these meetings?". It has been rare occassion since I have complained about a meeting...my troubles are of my own making - what am I bringing?

So, I have gone back, with a new mind/new attitude...and the crosstalk, the talking "at" and all sorts of stories/shares that I cannot tie back to the program laid out in my book..it doesn't really bother me all that much anymore.

[todd6138]

I guess you have to always expect feedback. My problem is with the old timers who feel they brought up this clubhouse and they have the right,(when they are in attendance) to tell the newcomers every time what to do and how to do it and basically scare the bejeezus out of any newcomer who might of had a thread of hope coming in to the meeting. I had a n old timer and a pigeon come in halfway through the meeting and say " I didn't hear one thing in your share as I came in that had any thing to do with alcoholism" and then rant for 10 minutes on how it is done. It was my "opinion" at the time that he just sit in the bAck and shut up until everyone else who came on time shared, let alone rant on another person's share. I guess that was all I meant. Just FYI, I went to a BB meeting there last night, and it was very meaningful and spiritual; so I do like the clubhouse..

[bballdad]

"What I was like" (Drinking and before the steps), "What happened" (My experience with God through the steps), and "What I am like now (What's my current experience?). The only topic there should ever be in an AA meeting.

excally Jim

[keithj]

Originally Posted by todd6138

I went to a BB meeting there last night, and it was very meaningful and spiritual

That is a very cool observation that matches my own experience. When I'm at a meeting that carries the solution, old timers and newcomers alike share experience based out of the book. Nobody tells anybody else what to do. It's just here's what I did and here's what it does in my life, and here's how I stay in the solution.

Meetings with a topic taken directly from the BB tend to stay in the solution, in my observation.