Was the A.A. Program and Fellowship intended to be inclusive or not?

[McGowdog]

Was the A.A. Program and Fellowship intended to be inclusive or not?

I see things in the book that shout that the A.A. program should be helpful for all. I don't know if that means they intended to take the dash on the 1st Step short form and insert your affliction and start your own Program and Fellowship and run with it, or...

We know very well the hammering out of the traditions and the "singleness of purpose". So it's obvious that when A.A. tries to do too much or be everything to everybody, both sides suffer.

But what about the distinction between the "real alcoholic" and the "hard drinker"? Does the hard drinker belong in the Program of A.A. and/or the Fellowship of A.A.?

This may be too hard of a topic. We may not be able to swing this one on here. But it's so important for us to come to some common ground on this or we'll just keep fighting.

So what's my experience with all this? I go to Closed and/or hardlined underground meetings and get fed spiritually as it's almost all program and as much fellowship that I could want. But I also go to "loose" or very open meeting where I'm very aware that I sit amongst potential addicts, potential alcoholics, "real addicts", "real alcoholics", andas, hard drinkers, hard drug users, alanons, people who aren't sure one way or the other, etc. I don't shy away from them or intend to run them off. I don't go up to them and tell them they're confusing the real alcoholics that that cofusion is killing them. I don't. I can tolerate them. In fact, I love to converse with them and just talk about where I'm at.

But I may not be sure who's really an alcoholic and who is just a hard drinker anyway, right? If they have more time than I do and I haven't been able to get them to check out my closed meeting or haven't been able to talk to them about their 1st step, how can I know? They may be very active in service work and much moreso than I and wouldn't assume I could add anything to their knowledge to what being an alcoholic or a hard drinker is.

Let's look at the book. I found a line in there that helped to inspire this thread. It reads,

"We have concluded to publish an anonymous volume setting forth the problem as we see it. We shall bring to the task our combined experience and knowledge. This should suggest a useful program for anyone concerned with a drinking problem."

Anyone concerned with a drinking problem? I'm sorry, but I'm confused. I'm quite sure this means the real alky or the hard drinker. And they wrote, "useful program", not "useful fellowship. So this would imply to me that they are to be included into the fellowship AND the program.

I hear and have caught myself saying stuff like doing the A.A. steps are for alkies only and will make those who aren't alky sick, not better. Is this true or is this false? I think this notion is one of the biggies that divides us (AAers and non-AAers).

To the non-AAer; that book was written during a time when there were perhaps no anti-AAer. Duh, how could there be, right? But seriously, I'm under the belief that there wasn't much hope for the alky anyway and they were cast out to being locked up, considered insane, moral deviants, criminals, hopeless, etc. And to a great extent, these things were true. Then these guys got together and plugged the severity and hopelessness of the problem into the spiritual program of action and found that one alky could reach another alky like no one else could, and there you go. But we follow the teachings of that book and it tells us that this Program is perhaps the best solution for most alcoholics. Many of us do this deal, stumble, and wonder what we missed. Some of us fail. Sure we do. But eventually, some us try and try again, and here and there, it takes hold and some more of us recover. If it finally works for us, we see no need to try something else. So being convinced of that, why should we suggest something else of which we know nothing about and have had no success in?

Maybe the recovered alcoholic should wear a badge and just state up front, "It worked for me and I'm going to have bias." That way, the person being approached can understand that they're not likely to hear much about alternative recoveries from this person.

Also to the non-AAers; I don't think it's necessary for pro-A.A. people to explain or rationalize or accept some updated theory or statistics that A.A. is not effective for the "real alcoholic" or the "alcoholic of the helpless variety" as the book describes. We really have to admit that it's such a subjective study and we'd always be comparing apples to oranges.

To AA-ers: What's your thought? Put yourself in the shoes of the hard drinker for a second. What would you do? It's got to be hard to be told maybe you're not a real alcoholic AND to discover that they're right. I've been told that I'm perhaps not a real alcoholic on numerous occasions and all it did for me is drove me fast into finding the truth and to perhaps consider that maybe they're right. Fear is always involved. But I think it has always drove me further into the realization that I am definitely a Mad Dog Alcoholic of the hopeless variety. But what if it goes the other way? Can we still help them? Should some of them perhaps be approached with alternative recoveries like secular, SMART, Life Ring, Rational Recovery, etc.?

How do we do this and help each other out instead of bashing each other?

I hear and see non-AAers and anti-AAers in the world and on the www say at first that AA is ok and has a purpose for some. But then they go way out and say how destructive it is. They question me on MY program and that only leads me fast and furious into the book and I see myself doing better than I would have otherwise. It's become like working the steps all over again just to show them &%^$s! You know what I mean?

Do you really think A.A. is going anywhere? I don't. I think it's as healthy as ever and is still the model for spiritual recoveries.

I'd like to put arguments against A.A. aside for another day or thread; ones that involve verbage like cult, thumper, nazi, a liar, a jacka#$, a wingnut, and old-timer,etc.

I'll leave my theory of monetary motive aside if you'll leave the arguments against me aside.

What do you say?

[tommyk]

A.A. is everything I want it to be.

I take what I want and I leave the rest.

I help people as much as I can, but I exercise boundaries and 'detachment'.

Lastly... ... we're going to meet all kinds... nobody came into the program suffering from too much sanity - we ALL have problems. Expect there to be differences of opinion, some turmoil, and unfortunately some insanity at times... then you won't be surprised.

A.A. is NOT a perfect program because it deals with people.

As an imperfect person with plenty of 'issues', AA works really well for me.

[Cubile75]

Apparently, like you, I have thought a lot about that awesome thread that cut loose over the weekend...

"We have concluded to publish an anonymous volume setting forth the problem as we see it. We shall bring to the task our combined experience and knowledge. This should suggest a useful program for anyone concerned with a drinking problem."

This is, I think, in my opinion, consistent with the overall tone of the rest of the Big Book. While there was discussion about "hard drinker" and "potential alcoholic" vs. the "real alcoholic" in the Big Book, I don't think the Big Book overtly sought to exclude the hard drinker or potential alcoholic from AA....

In my opinion, from what I've read in the 12 and 12, the founders of AA might have been pleased if "potential" or "early" alcoholics were to be spared a lower bottom, while they 'still had a car in the garage' and a family and job.

I don't think that this means that AA should go out and raise peoples bottoms, no no no!!! Perhaps, though, we shouldn't be so concerned about the differential of "hard drinker" (whose life has become unmanageable - court, DUI, divorce, whatever) and "real alcoholic".

Nice post McGowdog. While I don't have as much to offer as some, I get a whole lot out of these discussions. They may annoy some, but for me, these discussions have had profound impact...

Mark

[CAPTAINZING2000]

lol


lot to digest.


I was sitting on my sponsors sail boat with him and another member Sunday talking about our past. I thought, I was an alcoholic until, I'd listen to their stories . I still have a lot of yets if, I so desire.

Fortunately, the rooms are big enough to accommodate everyone.


Maybe, the hard drinkers are smart enough to get into AA before they go as far down the scale as others.

AA has filled the spiritual void lacking in my life. That, has been the one of my main reasons for continually attending after several years. I'm too easily distracted and can easily forget to be grateful and spiritual without AA in my life.


You mentioned in your post about someone telling you, you're not a real alcoholic. I'd rather attend AA believing that, I am an alcoholic then, to go out and try to drink like a gentleman again and prove them wrong!

[keithj]

From what history I know of AA origins, the program was designed by and for the chronic alcoholic who requires a spiritual solution to overcome alcoholism. That said, I'm not much concerned with the original intention. Yeah, I know, call me a heretic and all, but I try not to get too hung up on original intent. I am, however, a big proponent of following the traditions, and I consider myself a primary purpose, back to basics, work the steps kind of AAer.

Why? Two reasons, really. One, I want that solution around for the next guy. Two, the solution doesn't work when we water it down by trying to fit it into what society at large wants it to be. That experiement is being continually tested, and it doesn't seem to work any better today than it did when the traditions were written.

The program of AA, the spiritual awakening as the result of the 12 steps, is a solution for chronic alcoholics like me. Adherence to that program has brought me a life beyond my expectations. It has given me direction and purpose, and the power to help others. Can it bring some of those same things to non-alcoholics?

The answer is obviously yes as evidenced by the outgrowth of the many other 12 step fellowships. "We think our way of living has its advantages for all."

Originally Posted by McGowdog

I hear and have caught myself saying stuff like doing the A.A. steps are for alkies only and will make those who aren't alky sick, not better. Is this true or is this false? I think this notion is one of the biggies that divides us (AAers and non-AAers)

I think it's false. I have yet to see anyone harmed by working the steps. Any number of non-alcoholics in Al-Anon have gotten better, not sicker, by essentially working the same steps. The To Wives and Family Afterward chapters in the BB provide spiritual direction to non alcoholics that is very similar to the spiritual direction provided to me.

Let me give an example. When I got sober, I was stoked with the spiritual awakening I was experiencing. I was on fire, and I shared some of my experience with my father. He's never had a drink in his life, as far as know. Definately non-alkie. Just from my conversations with him, he picked up a few principles from the program and started practicing them in his life. Not working steps, mind you, but just helping others and staying out of the outcomes. In many ways, he's become a changed person.

My father benefitted greatly from half measures by just hearing a little of AA philosophy and incorporating what appealed to him.

The horror I see in mainstream AA is that someone like my father, a non-alkie, who benefitted from using what he liked (MOTR, half measure to the extreme), would then proceed to 'help' a chronic alkie like myself recover by those same half measures.

When an audible portion of the AA message in the rooms becomes that those half measures will lead to recovery from a hopeless condition of mind and body, that message has ceased to be useful to the real alcoholic.

This is where, I think, our unity has gotten a little lost. In a lot of meetings, unity has become equivalent to no confrontation and no questioning. Anything goes, and all forms of half measures are equally valid. Instead, I believe that unity means we have a common solution on which can absolutely agree.

[Cubile75]

I believe that unity means we have a common solution on which can absolutely agree.

That is one of the best things I have heard in regards to this issue, and I agree absolutely....

Mark

[Puddy]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

But what about the distinction between the "real alcoholic" and the "hard drinker"? Does the hard drinker belong in the Program of A.A. and/or the Fellowship of A.A.?

The only requirement for fellowship membership is the desire to quit drinking. They can come on in. The Program has many requirements, and most hard drinkers will find they don't need it, and won't do it. They'll either stay dry on the fumes of the fellowship, or they'll half-measure it just enough to get by, or they'll shuffle off and leave. They may be back if they ever cross that invisible line into real alcoholism.

Either way, no tradition is being broken here, in my view. But it's why we have closed meetings, and underground meetings - so hardliners like us can have our original brand of AA as well. I agree with Keith though, a guy who can get by on half measures shouldn't be teaching a chronic. That is exactly what happened to me as well. What can you do?

I don't think we're bashing each other too hard here. We're a bunch of Solution folks hashing out our conceptions. I take away from a spirited bout of solution-jabbing a LOT...and I have put a boatload of it into practice. And I want to thank you guys.

I did, however, send a PM to a couple guys here to make amends to them because I thought I was royally freaking them out...turns out that was mostly in my head and we were cool all along.

If I have offended anyone, please send me a PM so I can make it right.

Other than that - bring on the Solution! 95% of AA is watered down treatment center crap anyway, we folks need to stick together. I love this - were like the secret society within the secret society. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy and important-like.

[FightingIrish]

Thanks for this interesting and genuinely open thread. I too have been thinking a lot about some of the recent discussions (and arguments). I feel it has enlarged my perspective and helped me be more sympathetic to others' point of view.

Where I fall short of tolerance is when people go beyond "this is what I did, and it worked for me" to "oh why oh why do other people do/not do this or that, "I'm so different", "I'm the real thing", "they shouldn't be here", "don't they know they're doing it wrong?" I feel this behavior goes against the common unity that binds us together as human beings.

What I get from the Book is that this is a broad highway, and we should wherever possible be inclusive without jeopardizing our common purpose. That doesn't mean I think that meth addicts who are not alcoholics should feel free to come to closed meetings and share about their uncommon problem. But neither do I think we should run them off immediately. What would the Master do?

Like McG did at one point, I too bristle when people talk of the hard drinker vs. the "real" alcoholic. While I can honestly answer in the affirmative to both diagnostic questions from the Book, I did not go nearly as far down the scale as many others whose stories I have heard. I am not hopeless because I asked for help and found the solution. So what do I have to be hopeless about? I am not fighting to stay away from that first drink. The problem does not exist. I got it on the first try (so far) because I did what was suggested BECAUSE I wanted to get sober. If someone does not want to get sober, the Book tells me not to worry about that. Alcohol is the great convincer.

Though I have found and applied the solution, I can't identify with people who go out of their way to exclude or differentiate. To me, the Book talks about degrees of alcoholism. (E.g., "potential alcoholic" who "hasn't drank enough yet to lose total control" or some such language.) Why this emphasis on either/or?

And I'm not sure it's my business to tell other people who they should and should not sponsor or even be concerned about it. One of the most active (as a sponsor) and longest-sober members (30 years) of my home group is admittedly "a borderline, high-bottom alcoholic" who found he could moderate when his wife was on his back or he was about to get fired from his job. What he found was he didn't want his wife on his back anymore or to lose any jobs, so he joined A.A.

I have no problem with that.

M

[Pinkcuda]

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

This about says all I need to hear!
Alcoholics Anonymous is an orginization with a name. Any orginization with a name is an "Exclusive" orginization. Why would one join the PTA if they didn't have kids or weren't a Teacher? How could a Buddhist join the Knights of Columbus? How could a Draft Dodger join the VFW?
"As you understand God" allows for inclusion of any and all religions but that's were tha "all inclusive" should end.
"Closed" meetings are for Alcoholics only and "Open" Meetings are for Alcoholics and "Visitors". These "Visitors" were there to learn about alcoholism and what an "Alcoholic" was.
Open meetings were never intended to become the cocktail of Social Misfits that it has.

[optra]

I too have thought at length about this issue. At this point of my journey I believe this; If the hard drinker has the willingness(desperation) to submit to the PROGRAM he/she is also an alcoholic. A non alcoholic will not be able to undergo the breakdown of ego that we alcohlics NEED in order to accept the fact that we suffer from a spiritual malady that nothing but a spiritual experience/psychic change will solve.
That said I don't think we should exclude the non alcoholic from the fellowship as they too must have a problem with alcohol or they would not even think about coming through the door.
I think it is our reponsibility to make sure they have the opportunity to decide for themselves whether or not THEY feel they are an alcoholic or not. Also once they can make an informed decision that they are not alcoholic, they are still welcome to the fellowship but they must NOT make the mistake of thinking that just because they were able to quit drinking just by the fellowship that they are qualified to sponsor an alcoholic.
The whole and only reason sponsorship works(when done properly) is that once I as an alcoholic work the steps and have the spiritual awakening I am equipped to pass it on.
We are unable to pas on something we don't have. It is not something we can pretend to have.
Thanks

[keithj]

Originally Posted by optra

That said I don't think we should exclude the non alcoholic from the fellowship...

The 'Problems other than Alcohol' and 'The A.A. Group' pamphlets do a pretty good job of laying out membership 'requirements' to this here club. I think they can both be found on the AA website. We're not the first folks to discuss this.

[optra]

Thanks for catching that Keith, what I should have said is that non alcoholics should not be excluded from OPEN meetings. I agree that to be a MEMBER one must be an alcoholic.

[DaveBB164]

There are those in AA that don't need to follow the directions and have a spiritual experience live, to be free to be happy,

some of them follow a variation or diluted form of the 12 step program,

some of them will tell you the only thing they need to do to stay sober is make meetings, they are not lying either,

I spent my first year in AA surrounded by these kinds of people and at the end of that year I had no more idea about alcoholism than I had at my first meeting, I was suicidal and ended up drunk, I am not blaming anyone, I am simply saying they could not help me (not elitist or special), when I came back to AA I hooked up with a BB sponsor and in conjunction with the BB and God I was left in no doubt about my condition, I was supplied with the TRUTH and given the opportunity to say yes I am or no I am not,

when non alcoholics or hard drinkers who don't need a transformational experience try and sponsor a real alcoholic who does, what happens?

they end up drunk suicidal or worse. the Traditions are not debatable three and five are clear.

[bballdad]

But what about the distinction between the "real alcoholic" and the "hard drinker"? Does the hard drinker belong in the Program of A.A. and/or the Fellowship of A.A.?

I believe we should add the potiental alcoholic since AA raised the bottom,according to AA literature..
my answer is based on AA literature,and it is yes.


But I also go to "loose" or very open meeting where I'm very aware that I sit amongst potential addicts, potential alcoholics, "real addicts", "real alcoholics", and as, hard drinkers, hard drug users, alanons, people who aren't sure one way or the other, etc.

well,as Dave says in his post,the traditions are clear,and if a group wants that kind of stuff,they have the right.I avoid them myself,but I respect their right to be wrong or right..
their deal,now mine...I don`t worry about it,I got better things to do-beside those meetings are better than the jails i have been in.
I have no problem with someone ,problem drinker or potiental alcoholic improving their life...


seems to me,if someone really lived the message in the big book,they could tolerate and be a lot more happier than those big bookers who cring everytime someone else does things a little different

[Pinkcuda]

But what about the distinction between the "real alcoholic" and the "hard drinker"? Does the hard drinker belong in the Program of A.A. and/or the Fellowship of A.A.?
I believe we should add the potiental alcoholic since AA raised the bottom,according to AA literature..
my answer is based on AA literature,and it is yes.

I have to agree with most of this since there's no "Litmus Test" to determine who's an alcoholic and who's not. I have no way to determine the difference between the two. Therefore, if a hard drinker feels that he/she needs AA to resolve the problem through 100% abstinance and 12 steps than so be it.
Alcoholics Anonymous defines "Sobriety" as "Freedom from alcohol through the teaching and practice of the 12 steps" . This as an absoulte "Must" for anyone that calls themselves a member. If for some reason we are unwilling or unable to honestly take all 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous "as they are written" then we do not belong in the fellowship.
As to "Raising the Bottom", I have only found one place where that is mentioned in any literature.

As this trend grew, they were joined by young people who were scarcely more than potential alcoholics. They were spared that last ten or fifteen years of literal hell the rest of us had gone through. Since Step One requires an admission that our lives have become unmanageable, how could people such as these take this Step?

It was obviously necessary to raise the bottom the rest of us had hit to the point where it would hit them. By going back in our own drinking histories, we could show that years before we realized it we were out of control, that our drinking even then was no mere habit, that it was indeed the beginning of a fatal progression.

So we aren't raising the "Bottom" of what we regard or disregard as an "Alcoholic". We simply modify our experiences as a young alcoholic to help the new and young crowd relate to us

[Cubile75]

Thanx Pink... But couldn't you apply that to many older adults whose potential alcoholism was "latent" throughout their younger years? My sponsor didn't drink at all until he was 35... His alcoholism became "real" in his 40's..

Mark

[CAPTAINZING2000]

From John Hopkins


20 Questions

The Twenty Questions that helped me
decide that I was alcoholic.

The 20 Questions

Take this 20 question test to help you decide whether or not you are an alcoholic.

Answer YES or NO to the following questions.

1. Do you lose time from work due to drinking?
YES __ NO __

2. Is drinking making your home life unhappy?
YES __ NO __

3. Do you drink because you are shy with other people?
YES __ NO __

4. Is your drinking affecting your reputation?
YES __ NO __

5. Have you ever felt remorse after drinking?
YES __ NO __

6. Have you ever got into financial difficulties as a result of drinking?
YES __ NO __

7. Do you turn to lower companions and an inferior environment when drinking?
YES __ NO __

8. Does your drinking make you careless of your family’s welfare?
YES __ NO __

9. Has your ambition decreased since drinking?
YES __ NO __

10. Do you crave a drink at a definite time?
YES __ NO __

11. Do you want a drink the next morning?
YES __ NO __

12. Does drinking cause you to have difficulty in sleeping?
YES __ NO __

13. Has your efficiency decreased since drinking?
YES __ NO __

14. Is drinking jeopardizing your job or business?
YES __ NO __

15. Do you drink to escape from worries or trouble?

YES __ NO __

16. Do you drink alone?
YES __ NO __

17. Have you ever had a complete loss of memory as a result of drinking?
YES __ NO __

18. Has your physician ever treated you for drinking?
YES __ NO __

19. Do you drink to build up your self-confidence?
YES __ NO __

20. Have you ever been to a hospital or institution because of drinking?
YES __ NO __

What's your score?

If you have answered YES to any one of the questions, there is a definite warning that you may be an alcoholic.

If you have answered YES to any two, the chances are that you are an alcoholic.

If you answered YES to three or more, you are definitely an alcoholic.

(The test questions are used at Johns Hopkins University Hospital, Baltimore, MD, in deciding whether or not a patient is an alcoholic).




That, pretty much lets a lot of people in the doors of AA

[FightingIrish]

I scored 21

[DaveBB164]

1) when you start to drink can you stop abruptly and leave it alone, say after 3 or 4 drinks.

2) when you start to drink do you have any control over the amount you take.

if you answer no to both you are probably suffering from an illness only a spiritual experience will conquer

[Dee74]

Thanks for this thread McG. It's been on my mind too.

I'm not an AAer and as such I feel free not to believe in the idea of the real alcoholic/ harder drinker dichotomy. I try to respect the idea tho as it's a pretty basic tenet of AA.

My problem is, and I've seen it here in my 2 years on SR, people telling other people they're not real alcoholics (or more often maybe they're not which to an alkie like me means the same thing) along with the tacit implication AA cannot help them.

I've read the BB - several times - I sure missed that particular passage. As alkies, we can share experience, but none of us should diagnose.

People die from this disease whether they're real alcoholics, hard drinkers or binge drinkers - and (hold onto yr hats LOL) I think everyone can benefit, apart from saving their lives, not only from the fellowship but from a spiritual renewal/way of life like the one set out in the 12 steps.

How can anyone deny someone else that opportunity?

From an outsiders point of view - a lot of the MOTR stuff comes from people not realising, or not accepting, the 12 steps is meant to be a spiritual experience, and not just homework they need to do for their sponsor.

D

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Originally Posted by FightingIrish

I scored 21

lol

I had to look again for 21 questions

[DaveBB164]

Originally Posted by Dee74

Thanks for this thread McG. It's been on my mind too.

I'm not an AAer and as such I feel free not to believe in the idea of the real alcoholic/ harder drinker dichotomy. I try to respect the idea tho as it's a pretty basic tenet of AA.

My problem is, and I've seen it here in my 2 years on SR, people telling other people they're not real alcoholics (or more often maybe they're not which to an alkie like me means the same thing) along with the tacit implication AA cannot help them.

I've read the BB - several times - I sure missed that particular passage. As alkies, we can share experience, but none of us should diagnose.

People die from this disease whether they're real alcoholics, hard drinkers or binge drinkers - and (hold onto yr hats LOL) I think everyone can benefit, apart from saving their lives, not only from the fellowship but from a spiritual renewal/way of life like the one set out in the 12 steps.

How can anyone deny someone else that opportunity?

From an outsiders point of view - a lot of the MOTR stuff comes from people not realising, or not accepting, the 12 steps is meant to be a spiritual experience, and not just homework they need to do for their sponsor.

D

Dee,

The Hard drinker does not suffer from the hopeless state of mind and body that the real alcoholic does, he can stop or moderate, as the Big Book says he may need medical attention but he can stop or moderate if he has a good reason to,he has not passed into the state where he has lost control of his consumption, he is not in a life threatening situation, why would he go to AA?, why would he be encouraged to stay in a place he does not need to be?,

my experience in AA is that unless the person feels entirely hopeless/ sees the steps as a do or die errand, he/she won't surrender completely to the process so they won't have a transformational experience, in other words it won't be much use and my job as a sponsor would be fruitless.

Dave

[Dee74]

Dave my experience is I was an alcoholic who stopped on my own without AA and the 12 steps.

By implication that could make me a hard drinker in BB terms.
It's been suggested to me, more than once here, that's the case.

In my terms? I was an hardcore long term 24/7 alcoholic who decided that, actually, he didn't want to die. Trust me, I had the 'hopeless state of mind and body'.

I'm just one of these annoying alcoholic who stopped without AA. History is littered with them before 1935...and since.

I nearly did die and I have no doubt I would have had I kept going.
Just because I didn't go to AA doesn't mean I couldn't, or shouldn't, have.

I'm just saying - there's a risk involved in using guidelines as gospel.
If I'm a little bit neither fish nor fowl, how many others are there like me?

Let the alkie decide.

I dunno much about court orders - never had one - but if the average Dick or Jane makes the effort to walk in voluntarily through the doors, it must mean something, no matter what type of drinker they are?

I didn't mean to start a mini debate. McG mentioned non AAers - I thought that was my cue.

I've said my piece
D

[DaveBB164]

Originally Posted by Dee74

Dave my experience is I was an alcoholic who stopped on my own without AA and the 12 steps.

By implication that could make me a hard drinker in BB terms.
It's been suggested to me, more than once here, that's the case.

In my terms? I was an hardcore long term 24/7 alcoholic who decided that, actually, he didn't want to die. Trust me, I had the 'hopeless state of mind and body'.

I'm just one of these annoying alcoholic who stopped without AA. History is littered with them before 1935...and since.

I nearly did die and I have no doubt I would have had I kept going.
Just because I didn't go to AA doesn't mean I couldn't, or shouldn't, have.

I'm just saying - there's a risk involved in using guidelines as gospel.
If I'm a little bit neither fish nor fowl, how many others are there like me?

Let the alkie decide.

I dunno much about court orders - never had one - but if the average Dick or Jane makes the effort to walk in voluntarily through the doors, it must mean something, no matter what type of drinker they are?

I didn't mean to start a mini debate. McG mentioned non AAers - I thought that was my cue.

I've said my piece
D

Dee,

My hat is off to you if you stopped without AA, I don't believe AA is the only way to recover from alcoholism, it was the only way for me that worked,

I have a friend who is an alcoholic and he has not had a drink for 10 years, he has never set foot in an AA meeting in his life, he had a spiritual experience and goes to church, I encourage people to follow their own path,

I use the guidelines Dee along with my experience of alcoholism but the decision is the other mans,

by the way if you had a hopeless state of mind and body you were not a hard drinker, anyway thanks for your post.

Dave

[Dee74]

I don't believe I was either Dave, but it has been suggested to me - not for a while tho I'm happy to say.

I'm not in the business of telling AA what to do
It just that, because this subject affects so many newbies, it's important to me.

Good thread.

I'm out for the day
carry on...

D