Underground Meetings?

[Cubile75]

I have read several times here about "underground" meetings. What does that mean really? How do you find them... are they on the schedules provided by intergroup? in the announcements book?

Also, I have heard of firing line meetings... Is that something specific, ie, a particular format? Or is it just the name some groups use?

Thanx

Mark

[McGowdog]

In Denver, I went to an underground meeting. Invite only. Alcoholics only. If you don't work steps, you won't want to stick around. The once a week meeting is not listed in the intergroup list. If you go there, someone from the group invited you. Before you attend a meeting and/or group conscience, you are expected to have been properly 12-stepped and had the group conscience explained to you. In other words, they do steps yearly within a certain time frame, carry the AA message to suffering alcoholics (drunk, newly sobered up and unrecovered AAs,etc., a yearly retreat... and once you're in, you get and stay in. That means if the Broncos are playing the Raiders on Monday Night Football, you show up for the Monday Night Meeting.

These guys and gals go to a couple of York Street meetings too, which are just your typical hard Closed AA meetings. They so happen to be the 2nd and 3rd best meetings in the Metro area, with the Monday Night meeting being the best of it's kind in the world.

I don't know what you mean by firing line meetings, but that meeting and my own homegroup, which is just a closed AA meeting (not necessarily underground) has what we call crossfire. I've talked about that previously.

[Puddy]

There's a line in the Big Book about - you should never hesitate to visit the most sordid spot on earth on a 12th step errand. And also - we can go anywhere free men may go without danger as long as our motives are good. "Keep on on the firing line of life with these motives and God will keep you unharmed."

I believe that's two different sections of the book, but I tie them together. The only places I would go that are dangerous would be on a 12 step call. I've got no other reason to be there anymore.

I've heard some speakers talk about being on the firing line. Stuff like "I've been on the firing line for 19 years 10 months" etc. These are hardcore AA's.

I'm willing to bet a "firing line" meeting is some killer hardcore AA's bringing the message to the hardcore low-bottom alcoholics. Sounds like old-school 12 step work to me.

My kinda stuff.

BB Source: 1st Edition

[jimhere]

One of the more sordid spots I've visited lately is the hall right here in town. Also a rather hostile environment if you're going to talk about the book, the steps, or God.

In fact a lot of mainstream meetings here in town meet the criteria of being sordid. Sordid doesn't always mean if it's clean or not. It can mean is there any life there?

We have too many meetings in this town, and as a result most of them are like night of the living dead. No life, no spirit, no enthusiasm.

Which is why some of us, with the exception of our regular closed meeting, have taken to going into the detoxes and jails and meeting in each other's homes.

[CarolD]

mm....
I've always found many meetings I could relate to.

I bring God to each one.

Glad to see others are finding beneficial meetings too.
What a blessings to have a variety...

[keithj]

Originally Posted by jimhere

One of the more sordid spots I've visited lately is the hall right here in town. Also a rather hostile environment if you're going to talk about the book, the steps, or God.

Jim,

I share your viewpoint about the majority of meetings in my area. Certainly not true of all of them, but it is a strange thing to feel like the spiritual message of AA is not welcome at a meeting.

But, do you think that the best course of action is to go outside of AA?

In my observation, sick groups are sick because of ignorance. New people come in, hear a non-AA message or bring what they hear from treatment, and nobody questions it. They 'grow up' in a meeting like that, completely ignorant of the traditions or even the message of AA, and it just gets passed on.

My qustion would be, who is responsible for showing them? I was taught these things almost by accident when I got sober. The group around me was composed of solution based thumpers in a very active and healthy group. That group had started a year or so before I got sober because those guys couldn't find the message of AA in the local meetings. So they started a group focused on the spiritual solution. Along comes me learning that brand of AA.

I have to admit that the group sufferred from la ack of popularity, but the members were solid and sober, and helped many other alcoholics who wanted the solution. Members of that group staffed the hotline, brought speakers in, took meetings to jails and halfway houses. Right there on the firing line.

I understand the desire to go underground. The group I started with, however, served that desire within the AA community. By doing so, I learned what AA could be so that I could pass that along.

[McGowdog]

It's good you learned what AA could be and that it does actually work.

I don't understand how you could have had a good healthy group form and have it disband. Something must have happened wrong with the group from the inside for that to happen. This happens all the time and groups splinter off. But there's usually a core somewhere that refuses to settle on middle of the road.

I challenge your statement that a group gets bad due to ignorance. Get 3 or 4 or 5 or however many people together and try to change a meeting's format in meetings and in it's group conscience. They'll come crawling out of the grave to defend what it is and has probably usually been. I don't know why that is. I've seen this happen over a stupid issue, like smoking in the meeting. Remember when you could smoke in the meetings? Unless you were in a church or something? We tried to get people to come to their own freaking group conscience to see how many actual member still existed, so we created fliers to put on the tables of all the meetings within that club and announced we were voting on making all meetings non-smoking. I swear. People we thought were dead came crawling back to that meeting to fight it.


Well, long story short, it stayed smoking.

The point is, I think people get exactly what they want. If you want hard-core AA it's out there. We don't have to promote. In fact, there's a tradition against it anyway. Not because it's not prudent or polite, but just because it don't work.

[Puddy]

Originally Posted by jimhere

One of the more sordid spots I've visited lately is the hall right here in town. Also a rather hostile environment if you're going to talk about the book, the steps, or God.


Which is why some of us, with the exception of our regular closed meeting, have taken to going into the detoxes and jails and meeting in each other's homes.

Jim, I think I know which hall you're talking about. I went there a lot when I was first sober.

Also, I get together tonite with my sponsor, his sponsor, and all their sponsees in an underground type thing. We read spiritual literature, fellowship, and discuss how to be the best AA's we can be. We do this once a month, this is my first time I'm going. They told me about it only after I was sponsored for awhile and observing me and what I've been doing in AA.
Real underground stuff, I'm stoked to be invited. I didn't even know about it until today.

[RufusACanal]

I believe in meetings, but i believe more in and get more out of those meetings started by dedicated recovered members. Many of these are not listed on the CO handout, but those who are willing to change everything, find them.

It's all about what one is willing to do to build a New Life. The Book says, " We were REBORN", in order to be reborn, one has to change everything. These meetings cater to those willing to do just that.

[Jfanagle]

Just a quick comment on the original question regarding "underground meetings." In my area, Southern California, they are sometimes referred to as "shuttered meetings" and in fact I have attended one for the past 5 years. The intent, at least in the case of the meeting that I attend is not exclusivity, although it is that by definition, since you have to be invited and approved for invitation before hand by the members unanimously. The reason for the invitation only is that some of the members are rather high profile and a breach of their anonymity would prove devastating to their livelihoods.

The concept of anonymity is great, but at least in our area there are so many court ordered attendees and other less than committed folks that the idea of the importance of certain folk’s anonymity eludes them.

To my knowledge, no one in our immediate area is aware of our shuttered meeting except the attendees. It is held in a private residence and while the sobriety, at least I like to think so, is very strong it is not to add some rarefied "purity" to the meeting that it's existence is protected, it is simply for some of the members benefit.

Certainly not mine (LOL), I am a nobody, just a guy that was invited a few years ago. I hope that sheds some light on what I thought was the beginning question of this thread.

Jon

[McGowdog]

Well I think it's a shame. It's a shame we or anybody would need to go "underground" to do what was intended in the first place.

We wouldn't want to be accused of being a "Cult" or anything, would we? Woooooooooo!

Like I once said, thought... I'd go to one of those meetings if it was in line with something that works. Look at the people who go to it. If they're not healthy, reconsider going. If they've got Power, you'll know because they will likely be very healthy on many if not all aspects, or at least thriving to become that way.

The healthy spiritual life IS NOT the easier softer way. If it was, Hollywood would be lining up outside of Wal*Marts to pool their talent. Most people don't have what I want. But the media and TV portrays a different world than the one we know.

Oh, I'm sorry. I'm going off on a rant! I'm all jacked-up on coffee!

[keithj]

I'm not sure I got your point, McGowdog. My queries to Jim were about whether finding the solution was best done by moving the meetings underground or by starting a solution based meeting within the framework of AA. I've seen many friends get frustrated and even disgusted with the watered down message in 'mainstream' AA. So frustrated in fact, that they quit showing up at those meetings, and stick with the solution based meetings.

I guess I was asking what happens to those 'mainstream' meetings when the folks that have recovered through a spiritual solution of the 12 steps all leave and go somewhere else? Those meetings become the blind leading the blind. That was my point about the ignorance.

Originally Posted by McGowdog

I don't understand how you could have had a good healthy group form and have it disband.

It didn't disband. Still going strong. Other solution based meetings have started as well. The solution is there for those that seek it, and AA as a whole has improved in my area because of that.

I absolutely see your point about getting what we deserve. I hear people with long term sobriety (still not sure they have recovered) get riled up about a strong AA message in defense of the newcomer. They seem to think that the newcomer will be scared off by all this spiritual stuff. So, instead, the meetings focus on people places things, HALT, just don't drink and go to meetings, and all sorts of other sh*t you hear at meetings that have nothing to do with AA.

By going underground, the AA message of recovery becomes less accessible to new folks. So, new folks walk into an AA meeting, hear that watered down stuff, and ignorantly assume that's what AA is all about. And then they don't work the steps, don't recover, and carry that message to other new people.

And you're free to challenge my comments. It's not like I can, or have any desire to, empirically test it. Just a thought. And maybe a reason for continuing to carry the message of recovery within the rooms of AA.

[McGowdog]

Like I said. Try going to a weak AA meeting and changing it. Go to it's group conscience and say, "Instead of reading, the AA preamble, announcing 30, 60, 90, 180, 270, 365, 547.5 days sober, reading the Courage to Change, Daily Reflections, announcing ourselves by our first name because we're an open meeting, saying that addicts and alanons can speak 1st or last because we don't "discriminate", read how it works, pass the basket in the spirit of the 7th Tradition, then have the chair person say, "So, does anybody have a topic?"... to change that format causes them to come out of the wood works and shut you down!

They don't want to change!

If you can change them and that format, go for it! Or, you can start a meeting that's more solid. But if you don't have a core of recovered alcoholics, what are you going to wind up with? This is why I'm glad we work steps yearly in my homegroup. We don't argue it. We have it as part of our group conscience. That reason alone keeps a lot of people out... of that one meeting!

But I go to other meetings. If you have a good meeting, you're gonna eventually have someone get a resentment, leave the meeting, and buy a coffee pot, and start another meeting. It's probably gonna be another good meeting. You can both exist. Word of mouth is gonna get around and you'll have a reputation for being a good strong meeting. But the other one will be pretty darn good too. That's happened to my small town of about 150,000. If I wanted to, I could go to a strong meeting every day of the week. But I don't. I go to about 2, and I go to a weak meeting here and there, make my pitch, and once in a while, someone wants to talk to be about steps. I invite them to my meeting if they're really serious and one of the other meetings if they're semi-serious.

So I think it all takes care of itself. I'm not gonna sit here and bleed for the newcomer that needs help. Rarely have I seen a person who was willing as I was when I came back after a drunk. Seriously! I came in and bawled my eyes out and begged for help. People nowadays seem like such a bunch of educated wussies.

But I'll keep my eyes open.

[Cubile75]

I like my homegroup and have no reason to change, I think... they tend to stick with the message and not the mess... but sometimes... Like last time, the young adult son of another member, shared for quite a while, about how he'd been drinking, had come to meetings drinking and was obviously not sober last meeting. I was pissssed. I can tolerate a certain amount of group therapy as long as the message isn't lost.... or if there is a message there... but why do people who are drinking share? I'm glad they are there, but shouldn't they listen????? and learn.... not speak? I have only been sober 8 months, I rarely share, I don't have much of a message yet... don't drink, go to meetings, work the steps, and for me it's still about first step alot of the time... denial is a sneaky bitch, but I'm getting there...

So I am thinking of throwing in a hardcore meeting now and then... There is a firing line meeting, which all I've been able to get out of people is that it's "controversial"... you are supposed to bring your big book, which I like that idea....

Anyway, you guys are great to share your E,S and H so freely, thanx.

Mark

[Puddy]

Here's another twist for this thread -

if you read the early history of AA, it was all completely underground. Being sober was not hip and cool or accepted as it is today. In early AA, you had to be sponsored in. Everybody. If someone came in with one public drunkeness charge and still had his livelihood, bank account, and wife intact, they'd tell him straight out he could not recover because he hadn't suffered enough.

I used to get rankled at the idea of underground meetings, but after reading the history and after getting tired of the treatment center message at meetings (which I originally was btw), I now look at underground meetings as "keepin it real."

Treatment center message meetings are in the majority in my city anyway, nothing wrong with a few purists kickin it old school.

[keithj]

You make a good point McGowdog. I see where you are coming from. The sicker groups I visit don't even hold a group conscience. And here's my point about ignorance. They don't know they are supposed to. They don't have service reps to GSO, don't make financial contributions, don't know membership criteria, etc. The members of those groups I've talked to have received little or no guidance from those of us raised in the AA traditions.

But, I suspect that if they did have a group conscience, and I were to make the suggestions you say, they would shout me down. It just feels better to be all loving and accepting and everyone is welcome and everyone can do what they want. And it does feel good. Meetings are all one big love fest and vomit repository. Problem is it doesn't work. Nobody recovers. And those that do would rather be popular than responsible.

So, yeah, I see where you're coming from. My home group is right out of the back to basics, primary purpose mold, and a lot of it's members don't attend any other meetings. I just think I have an obligation to make my voice heard within AA instead of outside of it.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by Cubile75

...I have only been sober 8 months, I rarely share, I don't have much of a message yet... don't drink, go to meetings, work the steps, and for me it's still about first step alot of the time... denial is a sneaky bitch, but I'm getting there...

The heck you don't! Talk about how you've not drank, went to meetings and worked the steps! There's some newcomers AND oldtimers that need to here about this!

Originally Posted by keithj

The sicker groups I visit don't even hold a group conscience.

Well, I don't know about this. They at least have to get together to come to terms on how to disperse the money. They may call it a business meeting or something. They must have someone who helps get them on the meeting list, 12-Step calls, stuff like that. Once you grab them by their cash, their hearts and minds will follow, right?

Originally Posted by keithj

They don't have service reps to GSO, don't make financial contributions, don't know membership criteria, etc. The members of those groups I've talked to have received little or no guidance from those of us raised in the AA traditions.

Yeah, but I bet they read the short form of them at every meeting. Go there and bring up the 7th Tradition as a topic some time. Or don't. I'm starting to sound like Mark H!

Originally Posted by keithj

But, I suspect that if they did have a group conscience, and I were to make the suggestions you say, they would shout me down.

You darn right they would. It's called fear.

Originally Posted by keithj

I just think I have an obligation to make my voice heard within AA instead of outside of it.

Amen to that, Brutha!

[bballdad]

Mark,your question,why do people who are drinking share? shouldn`t they listen....of course they should...

in my home group we don`t let them share,but if they are not too drunk,they can ask a few questions,and I mean a few only.We basically let them sit and listen for all the good it may do...
I have been to A few meetings where the meeting revolved around a person who was half drunk
those meetings are not doing too well now..I usually just don`t go to them

as far as a underground meetings,I would not go to one of those either...I would follow Keith`s post,start a solution,a big book meeting in the middle of the others..in the middle of the local mainstream

now on occasion,we do get some guys and hold a few "unofficial" meetings at someone`s house around the kitchen table with the coffee pot,big book,and the ashtrays..those usually Are great meetings......

[McGowdog]

Well I bet they are.

We can start step study meetings and those can be great.

But once in a while, it's good for those of us that do steps to have something to talk about besides, "This is what we do."

Life isn't a classroom. Once in a while, it's good to go out and discuss current experience with your peers.

Instead of beating into the table, "This is how you do the 11th Step", you can say, "This is my current experience on the 11th Step", and to hear others share on that, rather than why we should do this or not.

Step Study is gr8. But what about Step Done It and Step Be It?

[bballdad]

for me,life is a classroom

[jimhere]

Hi Everyone.

Keith-those meetings are already the blind leading the blind. They don't want what I have to offer or want to hear what I have to say, not that what I have or what I say is all that special. A lot of real old-timers don't go for that same reason. So we meet in coffee shops, at Denny's, over kitchen tables. We're not going outside of AA because most of those meetings are AA in name only. Like Puddy says, we are keeping it real.

Puddy, that hall is at 18th & Baker in Everett. That's where I got sober, and I still go there once in a while. I look at going there as no different than going to jail or detox meetings, it is a true experience of putting yourself on the firing line. After all, God doesn't put a lit candle in a light place.
Jim

[Pinkcuda]

On of the coolest things I've seen happen in AA is when 3-4 of the more Rigid folk walked into one of the meetings in reference. They went in and took over. They started in on God,Steps and Recovery from Alcoholism. Within a month all the socialites were out of there. Never to be seen again.
Meetings have become what they have become because we've allowed them to become what they have become. Seems like we're just after volume and we don't care whether they are Alcoholics or not. That comes all the way from the top. AAWS allows court orders in meetings that have no desire to stop drinking. Groups consider Addicts members instead of visitors. Just so long as the chairs are full. The chairs are full of people who are either incapable of doing, or have no interest in doing AAs 12 steps.
My opinion is that nothing is more damaging to AA as a whole than the extremely loose interpretation of the 4th tradition.

[Puddy]

Jim,

18th and Baker baby! Yep, that's the hall alright. I agree 100% about it being no different than a detox center or jail meeting. I love what my sponsor calls halls like that - A.A. Emergency Rooms.

South King Alano Club in Auburn is the same way - I was there for a saturday morning meeting recently, when I had to take my wife to work. The only life in there was pure toxicity - I brought the Big Book message into the meeting - as I was winding up my share I was cutoff by a double-dipper share about how this guy was going to have to narc out his coworker for being loaded on crank on the job.

I stood by the door at the end to see if anyone was interested in talking about the 12 step process - everyone walked right past me. So, I left. I had a good meeting anyway.

However, SKAC is a really good space with dances every weekend that I've played music at. There is some positive fellowship going on there. Maybe I'll start a closed, back-to-basics Big Book study meeting there and see if a fire gets lit...

Don't even get me started about Fremont.

[FightingIrish]

That happened to a meeting around here. So everybody left - myself included - and formed another group across the street. Our group has about 25-30 a night, the other group is down to about 6, I think.

I suppose the larger group is what you might call "laid back." But we have step meetings, a big book meeting, and a beginner's meeting. We have people with solid recovery sharing their experience, strength, and hope. We don't have a lot of people who say, "just don't drink and go to meetings." We also don't have people talking down to newcomers.

I'll take it.

Originally Posted by Pinkcuda

On of the coolest things I've seen happen in AA is when 3-4 of the more Rigid folk walked into one of the meetings in reference. They went in and took over. They started in on God,Steps and Recovery from Alcoholism. Within a month all the socialites were out of there. Never to be seen again.
Meetings have become what they have become because we've allowed them to become what they have become. Seems like we're just after volume and we don't care whether they are Alcoholics or not. That comes all the way from the top. AAWS allows court orders in meetings that have no desire to stop drinking. Groups consider Addicts members instead of visitors. Just so long as the chairs are full. The chairs are full of people who are either incapable of doing, or have no interest in doing AAs 12 steps.
My opinion is that nothing is more damaging to AA as a whole than the extremely loose interpretation of the 4th tradition.

[Pinkcuda]

The group I'm referencing probably hadn't opened the book in a year. The only time they talked about sobriety is on birthday night.
Their meeting starts out with, "Is there any need to read any of this stuff? We've all heard it a million times" Then they proceed, Is there any announcments?
I announced the passing of Father Martin. A dozen people said, "Who"? A lot of them had been in the "program" 10-15 years. Gleefully blowing their 4th tradition trumpet and actually thinking they aren't affecting AA as a whole.