Okay, let's get real, no sweet talk ,no bs.

[firestorm090]

It's really convenient to say, "Go to meetings, get a sponsor, work the steps, and ultimately wait till you have a spiritual awakening" so you can live a life where you don't want a drink every day.

Come on folks, stop bullshitting me.

I'm not here to argue, but damn it, if I must argue, then so be it. I want someone to take the time and explain to me, hell I'll give you my phone number, but tell me please how do you have a spiritual experience?

I went to two meetings today and I heard, "If you want what we have..", hell I looked at the guy and thought, no thanks guy, you can keep it. Oh, fs, you must have misinterpreted the message, come on, hell I'm fifty years old, have managed a lot of guys over the years, and sure as hell didn't want what he had. I don't care how long he has been without a drink, this guy who lead the meeting was and is in my opinion a weirdo, and has no life outside of his kingdom in the meeting, which is why he is there every day.

For the record, whatever you may think, as if I give a damn, if the only solution is a spiritual awakening, then let's talk about that. How do these steps lead to a spiritual awakening?

Step 1 - Admitted we are powerless over alcohol and our lives had become unmanageable. OK, I admit that.

Step 2 - Came to believe a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. I've always believed in God.

Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and lives over to the care of God as we understand Him, asking only of His will for us and the power to carry that out. OK, I've said the third step prayer.

Well, there you have it fs, you're on step four. Come on. Is this for real?

Well, if I'm on step four, why the hell am I so miserable?


Oh, I'm sorry, you have all the answers, and you haven't drank for a million years, but you can't explain what is a spiritual awakening. Geez, what's up with that?

I'll tell you one thing, if I knew how to help a drunk turn his life around and find some peace during his/her lifetime, I'd scream it from the rooftops, not sit here and say, "Hey, go to meetings, read the BB, find an ******* sponsor, and just don't drink today."

Have we drifted so far from the truth that we sugar coat the message, and rest on our laurels, only to let the lost stay lost?

I am the lost, damn it, and I'm asking you.

[FightingIrish]

I really wouldn't over-complicate it. You don't need to understand it, you just need to do it. This is coming from a guy with an Ivy League science background.

[serenityqueen]

I understand your frustration. I struggled for 25 years, in and out of clean time, going to Meetings and I just didn't get it either. I looked around the rooms and saw a whole bunch of, what I thought were complete idiots. Like you said, why in the world would I want to be like some of these people? Was sobriety going to make me a walking, talking, every third sentence is a slogan type person? As far as that goes, I had to remind myself that there are so many different personalities out there and accept people for who they are. Even if they seem alien to me.

As far as a Spiritual Awakening, I can't tell you how to have one. If I could, I'd be a wealthy woman! In July of 2005, when I had finally, truly hit my bottom, when death seemed like the only way out, I had a good sceaming fest with God. I felt abandoned, ignored, punished . . . I literally was screaming out at Him. Yes, I'm an alcoholic but my doc is opiates. I was going through severe withdrawls, trying to get back into detox, going to the hospital day after day, just to be told to come back tomorrow.I cannot explain what happened in rational terms that night, but I fell asleep and woke up with a sense of peace inside me. Oh, I was still dope sick, but I just knew in my heart that everything was going to be ok.

This isn't just fluff here, but I will say a Prayer that you find the inner peace that you are searching for.

Judy

[FightingIrish]

My reply was not intended to be flip. I came into this with the idea that I was going to do everything they suggest just to prove everybody wrong. The ultimate in scientific method and hypothesis testing. This, however, required willingness, if not necessary open-mindedness or honesty, but those came along as I started to do the work with a sponsor.

[FightingIrish]

Have you read through "Spiritual Experience" in the Big Book? Also, my experience is that things really start to get interesting in Steps Four through Nine. Steps One, Two and Three are really just decisions or realizations...the actions come next.

[stone]

Yes, the first 3 steps are decisions not action steps...I have left AA but I relate to your wanting the spiritual awakening, I have had many spiritual awakenings, none of them stopped me drinking.
I never used to understand the "fake it till you make it" thing, it means do the work without expecting anything, don't bother questioning the hows and whys just now, just do the work...and see what happens, I can see the value of that now. And if you are step 4 you are just beginning.

Like I say, I left AA but I can still see the value of working on my spiritual side and of doing things that I really don't want to do, working on my defects etc.

I think waiting for a spiritual awakening can be a red herring and can do more harm than good....like the Buddhists say, if you see the Buddha on the road, kill him. They mean if during your "practice" you find you have a mental image of enlightenment, "kill it".

[zoomer]

I have had many rude awakenings instead of the calm spiritual types. I realized that I was a danger to myself while taking medication and drinking. I realized that no one or nothing made me drink, I drank all on my own. I also realized to stay stopped I needed someone or something to help me and it was not going to be prayers alone. I needed peer support to help me stay accountable for my drinking. To me the steps are just guide lines on how to live sober to aviod mishaps that will get me drinking again. WE as alcoholics find any reason to drink,so we need to put out any flames that will get our fire burning again thus the steps... I was proud when I went through all the steps, I felt like I completed a course. Of course though you are never truly done with the steps and have to apply them to your daily life. A sponcer is someone who guides you through the steps and helps you make wise choices. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not a big God person,but a little prayer never hurt anyone. I'v seen people's lives turned around because they stopped drinking. Alcohol kills people or makes their lives hell. That to me is a spiritual awakening is the realization about how alcohol can distroy anyone if they drank enough. If spiritual awakenings is not your bag, just think of all the rude awakenings people can have.

[bballdad]

ok Firestrom
you are excally where you are supposed to be,ok,sure,you`ve heard that before
but you are floating between sobriety and being drunk...a real miserable place to be...

a spiritual awakening is better experienced than described

symthons of a spiritual awakening are the promises on step 10 in your big book

bottom line,you need to have one to experience it,and then maybe you can describe it,sometimes our words cannot describe it better than the big book does

I was miserable too on step 4,join the club buddy..you are feeling what you are supposed too at this point of your recovery

quit analyzing so much and start utilizing,get into action more and thinking less

don`t forget,you are a sober alcoholic at this point,at least be grateful for that

do the work,(take the action) the big book suggests,and you will never ask this question again

some things cannot be explained,but must be experienced
the 12 steps are 12 experiences that give me a spiritual awakening

we alkies like to know about stuff before we jump in and then we decide...naaa,not me...that won`t help me...and we end up drinking and dying

[Dee74]

I'm not an AAer Firestorm but one of the biggest lessons I had to learn was that I don't have to know everything.

Maybe the spiritual awakening comes from the faith involved in just letting go, surrendering, and...just doing it.

I wasn't looking for a spiritual awakening (or as I term it a renewal) but I found one anyway.
I think maybe I would have missed it if I had been looking for it.

I'm not trying to sound like a yogi or even a wise guy - you mightn't hearing like it right now, but the meaning of anything worthwhile won't come from me or anyone else - it comes in the getting of it for you - and I wish you well

just relax and float down stream, FS
D

[Music]

Not drinking, going to meetings, having a sponsor and working the steps will keep me sober long enough to experience a spiritual awakening. Not doing these things will just keep me miserable and drunk.

I heard one of the most logical definitions of humility a day or two ago. "Humility is acknowleging the truth." The truth is, I'm not 66 years old because of anything I've done. The truth is I haven't been sober for 32 years because of anything I've done. I haven't been married for 47 years because of my best efforts. Having three reasonably successful children, 10 grandchildren and one great grandson is not because of anything I've accomplished. Everything I am today, good or bad; everything I have today are gifts. I can look up and see a blue sky, a flock of geese flying over, a beautiful rose, a deer grazing or a twinkle in my grand daughters eye and have a spiritual experience if I acknolege the truth, that all these are God's creation and if it weren't for Him, these things wouldn't be possible. These are all everyday spiritual experiences that come to me because I look for them. However, most of the powerful spiritual experiences I've had come from looking back to the past and giving credit where credit is due. Seeing the path that I've taken to get where I am, and realizing that I just took the next step and kept putting one foot in fron of the other.

Firestorm, you've got a good start and as I see it, you're on the right path. Of course, there aren't any guarantees but I can promise you this. If you work the AA program the way I did, which isn't perfect and probably not to the best of my ability, you can stay sober for 32 years. There's no reason you can't if I can. The first thing you have to do is stop anylizing everything and just go on blind faith until you can look back and see the miracle that took place while you were not drinking, going to meetings, talking to your sponsor and working the 12 steps, not just the first three.

[AW2486]

Step 12 says ... having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps... Not the result of the first 3 steps.

FS your at the rubber meets the road part. ACTION. Someone told me once.. Don't think about it .. just do it. I am the type, if I think about it long enough, I won't do it.

Today in daily living, I have to stay in action to keep connected. Action is were growth takes place. Staying spiritually fit takes effort.

[collinsmi]

4th is tough. Keep writing. Let me know how you feel after your 5th.

[tsukiko]

First, I gotta’ say – lovin’ the title. Definitely an eye catcher.

In fact, your whole post had me.

I tried meetings. I went when I was at my worst: clean veins, but messy head. Listening to some of the speakers really helped me out, but I couldn’t get into it. I also felt somewhat preasured to believe in things I just couldn’t, then or now.

I didn’t do the steps. I hit a brick road on step two, personally. Accept a higher power? Half the mess I was in was due to relying on some higher power, believing I was in some sense a subordinate creature. It just let me blame others, parents, authority figures...God. If I’m to thank God for my achievements, like he caused them, then why am I to blame me for my mistakes? I know that is a controversial thing to say, but hell. This seems to be the place to say ‘em!

God, some ethereal / omniscient power or essence is imagination to me. That isn’t a jibe, but I think the power to imagine, to project myself into any number of possible futures and the accomplishments people around me have etc...that’s the only power I know, or need.

I needed to be my own higher power and contradicted the second step –a higher power will restore me?

I got myself in this mess. I want to restore myself, ta.

I respect those who dedicate themselves to ‘the cause’, no joke. They helped me out and I can’t deny it. I’m eternally grateful.

I guess what I’ve learned now is that it’s each to their own.

Wasn’t for me, but if one person finds solace in NA / AA then it’s worth it, all the way.

Maybe it just ain’t for you either?

Haven’t drank for a million years? Ha ha. Sorry, mate. I ain’t hit that mile stone yet. I’m expecting a solid platinum keyring / coin when i do though!

I ain’t had some grand epiphany or moment of spiritual enlightenment. I ain’t hanging my sobriety on having one either. It’s been more like sparks than some huge firework for me.

I had a pretty cool day the other week. It didn’t bring me closer to God or stop me waking up the next day with gear on my mind, but it meant when I woke thinking of gear there was also something else in my head telling me ‘you never would’ve experienced what you did yesterday if you hadn’t got clean’. Like I say: little sparks; they singe the cravings.

I don’t think anything will ever fully extinguish that fire, but hey...that’s the price we pay. Accepting that has made waking up in the mornings a more manageable task, for me.

Look after y'self mate.

[24hrsAday]

i hear the frustration FS.. and i understand it. but.. remember nobody said the program would be easy.. also remember that things happen in gods time.. not ours.. keep on pluggin away at it!

[findingout]

I don't remember feeling spiritually awake after three steps either, but I was starting to believe that for me "a spiritual awakening" meant a process rather than an event. Part of the process was letting go of the need to know why things work before I experienced them. But even that might be my BS because what I really wanted was a way to get the results of working the twelve steps without actually working all the twelve steps. A short cut. Or I would think "yeah, yeah, yeah, I get step two already, now let's get on with it!" but not really getting step two at all. Not getting it because I wasn't ready to make the commitment of faith that the twelve step program would work for me. Thinking it wouldn't work for because I was not really like all the other alcoholics in my meetings, deep down I was different.

Part of my spiritual awakening was realizing that the opposite was true, that deep down I was exactly the same as all the other alcoholics in my meetings.

Actually, I don't remember any one point in my recovery where I felt a spiritual awakening in real time, while it was happening. It hasn't been anything like the process of drinking alcohol to feel different. My spiritual awakening has been nothing like when I used to pour two bottles of wine down my throat and *poof* everything was warm and happy (until the wine wore off).

Part of my spiritual awakening was finding out that I need to experience the lows sober to appreciate the highs sober and realizing that sometimes when I feel "is this all there is?" it's because "yes, this is all there is."

Also, a part of my spiritual awakening was one day realizing that God was doing for me what I could not do for myself. For me, that part came last. It came when I found that I had no other way to explain why my life had changed for better simply because I "went to meetings, got a sponsor, and worked the steps". It came after I had worked all twelve steps for longer than I would have found acceptable back when I wanted a short cut.

Part of my spiritual awakening was learning patience.

[Believe808]

FS When I was working on Step 4 I was right where you are now. As Music so wonderfully put it, I too rely on my Blind Faith. I do know that on Sept 24, 2008 I couldn't go 1 hr without putting something in my body, I couldn't do it no matter how hard I tried, but somehow, God and I do believe this, took away that horrible obsession and I have not had them urges since then. I don't question anything anymore. I just know it happens. It's the same with the Spiritual Awakening as a result of these 12 Steps (as AW stated) not these 3 steps. If I sit here and try to analyze everything, I can't figure out how this works but all I know is that it really does work. I get to remember just how I was every Thursday night when we bring a meeting to Detox center. Something I learned after being sober for 15 years is that I cannot do this on my own, it was a tough lesson but I am glad that I learned it. All I know is that with my track record I shouldn't be here today, but I am, so who am I to question any of this. Just keep the faith, it will get better.

[nocoincidence56]

Hey firestorm090 (I was a firestorm, and can be again!), read pages 567 & 568 of the AA "Big" Book (fourth edition). If you read carefully and "into" what is written, some of your frustration my be eased. Been where you are, know how you feel. If you keep working at recovery you will gradually realize how life has changed for the better... Remember though, easy but not simple.... Change is hardly a simple thing. You will be able to look back, in time, and understand how you have followed a path you didn't even know you were on! Share "that" experience, strength, and hope with someone when you are able........Consider this, what we did to ourselves and to others was painful, along with a world of other negative things, recovery is a very painful process at times, yet the benefits are far more rewarding and enriching. Everything you need to recover are inside yourself. You just have to find it through the process of recovery...yeah right, more paradox, blah, blah, blah... until it begins to really mean something to you..................Just do it..............We are here for you.........

[Charmie]

hello,somebody said it earlier and i agree,the steps are in order for a reason and work if you really really want it.try not to complicate things for yourself and focus on the step you are on.i have had many little spiritual experiences since i surrendered (ie appreciating the weather,being able to have a meaningful conversation with my daughter,helping folk,watching flowers grow that i planted,being honest about things i would never have been before,the list goes on) these may seem frothy examples to other people.i dont care if they do.to me they mean the world after the h*ll existence i was living in before.all i do is hand everything over.i am powerless.i believe i have already had a spiritual awakening by finally honestly surrendering.i tried many times before to no avail but i feel different this time as i am no longer fighting.that has been spiritual for me.surrendering has been key to me.stick at it and it will come.pray lots! and i get told all the time it gets better! let go and let God is another one.people get fed up sometimes of these little sying but they too are there for a reason and work,,for me anyway.i do hope you think im not preaching!!!! im just sharing my ESH.take care.

[ananda]

I just went through the process....waking up to the spiritual expereince we all have is something that happens differently for all of us...but it is sorta a spiritual carrot...not the real goal in a since....

The process of working the steps has changed my life.

I think step 3 was a lot more than a decision even though it says that...it was basing my actions on the decision. Reading the bb and saying a little prayer was not the key of the 3rd step for me....it talks in the bb about how it needs to be something that is meaningful to you.

If i had just read the bb with my sponsor without putting thought into what it meant to me...i'm not sure i wuold have gotten much out of it ... much less a spiritual awakening...

For me each step and each moment i am sober has a spiritual awakening within it...sometimes i can see it and sometimes i cant...but if put some thought into the steps they can lead me to being more awake each moment.

[BP44]

It was important for me to set aside anything I thought I knew about anything, in particular, spiritual matters. If I knew anything at all I wouldn't be here. It was also important to consider that I may not know the truth about anything, and if I would simply set it aside, in the end if it were true it would still be true, if not it was useless anyway. When I whole heartedly took these kinds of suggestions, it put me in a position to hear the message and go forward and surrender to the process. I was able to finally say, " I don't care what it's going to look like ". I no longer thought I knew what it should look like, nor did I think I needed to know what it would look like. My only suggestion would be to set aside what you think you know. While it may not seem like a good place to be you are in an awesome place for an alcoholic, separated from alcohol without relief of the process. You are experiencing simply being separated from alcohol with untreated alcoholism. It's a great place for a sponsor to say, " I don't have to scare you with the thought of dying an alcoholic death from drinking, in fact, you may just live in the state you find yourself in right now, how ya like that?" If you are an alcoholic it is an attention getter. Keep doing the work it gets better and will make sense.

[sailorjohn]

Originally Posted by firestorm090

Well, if I'm on step four, why the hell am I so miserable?

Because you choose to be?

Guessing, but there is no way any of us can answer that particular question for you.

[gravity]

I once heard a very happy & content oldtimer say "The first 3 steps will keep me sober. The rest of the steps give me serenity."

Serenity = Peace of Mind

Sobriety without serenity is f***ing miserable. I might as well drink. Well, except for that other problem - drinking is hell.

Do the steps.

[RufusACanal]

PM and I will give you my number, if you want to hear what I have to say. Pocket your EGO before the call though, if you are not willing to converse and take direction, I can't help you. Best to you. Ron

[CarolD]

No BS......

AA offers a positive way of living....
regardless of when you have a spiritual experience.

Are you usually irratated with people
or only AA members?

One thing I noticed....by the end of my drinking
no more fancy places or interesting companions.
Dingy bars filled with sad losers deluded me
into feeling superior to other drunks.
Buying rounds assured me I was special.


Of course I was peeved with AA members
Did they not know who I thought I was?
They laughed when I wore my rinestone tiara.

They also taught me to be the best woman I could be.


Hope you stay around long enough to
find the new you FS

[miss communicat]

the answer may be simpler than you are allowing it to be.

your title holds the key: "let's get real"

sobriety, and the spiritual growth (which builds awakening upon awakening, not in one single drama-packed event) are the result and the process of walking the path of getting REAL.

being REAL, for me, means letting go of everything I think I know with certainty about who I think I am, and taking guidance and lessons from God. Simply put, I needed to slow down and yield my ego