No HP talk in aa meetings

[adore79]

Hardly anyone in meetings I go to mention HP. I asked my sponsor why and she said they dont want to turn newcomers off. I dont know that I agree with this, as a newcomer I am trying to learn more about how to use my HP to stay sober, I wish they would reference it more. Do meetings in other towns do this?

[Astro]

Sadly, I do agree somewhat with this. I was initially scared by the God talk at first, mostly because God wasn't giving me the selfish things I wanted, but not enough to keep me away from meetings.

I've heard quite a few people share that they were turned off by the spiritual or religious overtones used in AA meetings, so it's not a big topic in our newcomer groups. Our spiritual meetings and closed meetings are another story, most of the talk focuses on our faith in a Higher Power and a God of our understanding.

Fel, I'm so happy to hear that you're trying to learn more about how your HP works in your life. That's true progress and a good message to carry to other newcomers.

[Freedom1990]

That's too bad! We have no problem discussing our HP in my home group, newcomers or not.

I suggest finding another meeting more spiritually based. Kudos to you for wanting to learn more about your HP and sobriety! :ghug

[Puddy]

God has everything to do with the program of recovery outlined in the book. Without God, and action on the 12 step program, there is no recovery, only restless, irritable, and discontented dry-ness. For a time, until we either a) go back to drinking for relief, b) begin substituting our alcohol with other substances (usually antidepressants,anti-anxiety meds, or prescription sleeping pills) or c) drive our car off a cliff - or some other form of suicide. Because you do not have to drink to die of alcoholism.

Read page 52 in the Big Book, middle paragraph for a description of the bedevilments - that is what we suffer from if we are real alcoholics and don't work the 12 steps in their entirety.

So if your meetings are not in tune with that, then they are Fellowship only meetings, where it's more like group therapy. Which is fine if you're not a real acoholic. If you are a real alcoholic, the 12 steps will save your life. Without the 12 steps (path to God), you'll probably die in this disease in some form eventually - if you are a real alcoholic.

You can have a good sponsor take you through the first section of the Big Book to properly diagnose you as alcoholic or not. The Fellowship is chock full of hard drinkers (nonalcoholic) who think they are alcoholic because a judge or a treatment center or a pissed off spouse or an untreated AA member told them they were.

If that sounds black and white, cut and dried, no gray areas etc it's because it is. We don't question the symptomology and progression of, say, cancer. So we don't need to question the symptomology of untreated alcoholism. Countless legions of alcoholics have proven it time and again, both before AA, since AA, and in the rooms of AA.

[CarolD]

That certainly would not be for me....

I'd be looking for groups that did God based recovery.
some of our SR members might have info for you
on how to find the local
back to bacics ...primary purpose groups.

Or you could move down here to the Bible Belt....

Glad to know you are interested

[FightingIrish]

And not being these people, how exactly would you know this?

The Fellowship is chock full of hard drinkers (nonalcoholic) who think they are alcoholic because a judge or a treatment center or a pissed off spouse or an untreated AA member told them they were.

[McGowdog]

I don't know how he knows, but I agree with it totally.

Puddy, your meeting or home group sounds quite a bit like mine. Not very popular with some in here and throughout the world, but hey... I'm in the right place. Perhaps they are too.

We say God in our meeting. In fact, we talk about God quite a lot. If we're not talking about God, we talk quite a bit about booze. In fact, we are instructed to choose if God is everthing or if God is nothing. Then we make a decision or two based on God, then we act.

I like what Dr Bob called Him; Heavenly Father. The AA Fellowship is very open to let you interpret what this God is. They beg of you to think honestly, search diligently within yourself, sweep away prejudice, stuff like that.

I honestly don't know where this HP or Higher Power comes from nor am I interested. It's not in my vocabulary, but I will respect you if you use it. If it works for you, I'm fine with it.

What's important is that I not only have Faith in God, as God came right into my life, more or less tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Here I Am", but I get to be His buddy and have a daily relationship with Him. I think it's got a lot to do with why I don't want to drink today. I refuse to cram my interpretation of It, Him, Her, Whatever... down anybody elses throat today as I know I don't like when it's done to me.

But it's hard to talk about it and not have someone say, "Keep it to yourself!" We are funny people.

[Puddy]

Originally Posted by FightingIrish

And not being these people, how exactly would you know this?

Thanks for asking,

The Big Book explains this as well:
"A hard drinker can stop or moderate without spiritual help." (Paraphrased).

These are the folks that can swing by the Fellowship a couple times a week and "check in". The ones who can make their whole sobriety work based on their favorite AA slogan. The ones who don't have to strenuously work with newcomers lest they take a drink and start actively dying in the disease.

I heard early in my sobriety, "just don't drink and go to meetings". I thought that's what sobriety was. And it is for many people in the fellowship. I tried for 7 years to make that work and it didn't. I went all the usual routes - mentally & emotionally turbulent dry-ness, then prescription medications, and finally, full blown relapse, hitting the bottom that is in described the Big Book - "pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization" - suicidal depression.

Then a man took me through the first 164 pages of the Big Book. I was diagnosed as a real alcoholic. I took the twelve steps as outlined under the guidance of a sponsor. I surrendered all my old ideas and many current Fellowship ideas and finally had the ears to hear, the eyes to see, the heart to feel, the "New Pair of Glasses".

BB Quote 1st Edition

[Tommyh]

my home group talks about God,and so do the others around here.
For the record,potiental alcoholics,and hard drinkers are welcome in AA...according to AA literature...
the way some people talk,they make it sound like these folks have leporsy or was the devils children

[FightingIrish]

I must not be a real alcoholic, then. I didn't experience any of that. I simply answered a few questions from the book, went through the steps, and am living my life, already in progress. No Sturm, no Drang. No, "Hey A.A., get me sober."

Originally Posted by Puddy

Thanks for asking,

The Big Book explains this as well:
"A hard drinker can stop or moderate without spiritual help." (Paraphrased).

These are the folks that can swing by the Fellowship a couple times a week and "check in". The ones who can make their whole sobriety work based on their favorite AA slogan. The ones who don't have to strenuously work with newcomers lest they take a drink and start actively dying in the disease.

I heard early in my sobriety, "just don't drink and go to meetings". I thought that's what sobriety was. And it is for many people in the fellowship. I tried for 7 years to make that work and it didn't. I went all the usual routes - mentally & emotionally turbulent dry-ness, then prescription medications, and finally, full blown relapse, hitting the bottom that is in described the Big Book - "pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization" - suicidal depression.

Then a man took me through the first 164 pages of the Big Book. I was diagnosed as a real alcoholic. I took the twelve steps as outlined under the guidance of a sponsor. I surrendered all my old ideas and many current Fellowship ideas and finally had the ears to hear, the eyes to see, the heart to feel, the "New Pair of Glasses".

[McGowdog]

Bballdad:That's funny! Well... actually it's not. It's funny in a Slingblade way, not a haha way.

It's funny because in the town I live in, it's the recovered alcoholic that's treated like the leprosy and devil's child...except for my own homegroup meeting and a couple of other closed meetings.

The potential alcoholics are very welcome at even a closed AA meeting. Even the Hard drinker. But... they're gonna be asked a few questions.

The potential alcoholics, the hard drinkers, the alanons, the addicts, they are welcome at all the other "AA" meetings in my hometown and they are VERY VERY active and vocal. They have their own group conscience and they chair meetings and read the 24 hour Daily Reflections book, the Courage to Change, the 12 steps and 12 traditions short form, go around the room and introduce themselves as alcoholics, addicts, a great day to be clean and sober, a supporter, an alanon, a wino, etc., then at the end of the meeting, they read "the promises" which is a copied version of the 9th step promises and close with the Lord's Prayer. But after about 25 minutes, after giving chips to the newcomers and birthday people, and after they've all shared, then the chair person says, "So, does anyone have a topic?"

Then under my breath, I say, "Chair the Efing meeting!" Then nobody says anything. Then the chair person says, "Let's talk about gratitude... or acceptance..."

Flashforward to Todd: So ... gr8 opportunity for you to start the best meeting in town or make one of those other two meetings the best meeting in town.

[todd6138]

It is pretty funny where I live; AA usually consists of the "first step", which usually means plenty of drunken stories and very little else; when God is mentioned, eyes roll in to the back of their heads and they all squirm or get up and leave; then we say the Lord's prayer and dismiss; i have found a good Thursday night discussion and a good Big Book meeting, but the other meetings are enormous and repetitive.

[freya]

Originally Posted by adore79

Hardly anyone in meetings I go to mention HP. I asked my sponsor why and she said they dont want to turn newcomers off.

What I hear here is:

People assuming that they have the power -- based on whether or not they talk about HP -- to either get someone into recovery or to prevent someone from recovering.

People assuming that the newcomer can't handle and/or shouldn't have the right to make his/her own decision based on what really is.

People acting like they have to "walk on eggshells" around the newcomer and not say or do anything that might upset him/her or give him/her an excuse to leave.

People being willing to side-step and/or misrepresent and/or downplay and/or conveniently fail to mention their truth so as not to upset the newcomer or give him/her an excuse to leave.

People trying to manipulate the newcomer into recovery by deciding how much of the truth he/she should have access to and when.

People believing that they know, better then the newcomer and the newcomer's HP, what is right for the newcomer and what the newcomer should be doing.

You know, if these people were not alcoholics/addicts themselves, I'd be willing to bet it wouldn't take folks on this site even one hot New York second to call this behavior what it really is: disrespectful, controlling, enabling.

Actually, if the truth be known, it's disrespectful, controlling, and enabling regardless of whether or not the people engaging in it are alcoholics/addicts or not.

......and, BTW, there is a 12 Step program for people who choose to try to manipulate and disrespect alcoholics/addicts in these ways......

...but, as far as this behavior actually going on on a regular basis in and being explicitly or implicitly condoned and/or encouraged by any 12 Step group. That's just insane! Please do yourself a big favor and find another friggin' group!!!!!!!

freya

[FightingIrish]

I think I would like the "recovered folks" more if their programs were based on affirming their own experiences rather than belittling others. Doesn't really bespeak a successful program, imho.

Oh, but now I'm doing the same thing!

[ananda]

ah my kind of meeting

[Puddy]

Originally Posted by bballdad

my home group talks about God,and so do the others around here.
For the record,potiental alcoholics,and hard drinkers are welcome in AA...according to AA literature...
the way some people talk,they make it sound like these folks have leporsy or was the devils children

Sorry if I made it sound like that. Of course potentials and problem drinkers are welcome in AA. I agree whole heartedly. The only requirement for AA fellowship membership is a desire to stop drinking. You don't have to even stop drinking to be a member.

Facts are facts though, the truth is just the truth - the real alcoholic eventually must get diagnosed and take the program of action instead of take the advice of hard drinkers, to "just don't drink". Hell, that's the same as Nancy Reagan's "Just Say No".

And yes, I agree with McGowdog - I and others like me are the ones treated like lepers - funny, because AA was created by real alcoholics, real Big Book thumpers (they wrote everything we use!), not by fellowship visitors, who can "take what they like and leave the rest".

As for the Sturm and Drang guy, if it's working for you, great. If there ever comes a time where that stops working for you, hopefully you'll see it in time and head it off at the pass with a rigorous program of action before you drink. I might suggest that growing restlessness, irritability, and discontentedness in sobriety is actually untreated alcoholism progressing, regardless of whenever your last drink was. And if half measures avail you everything, I am truly happy for you. I wished it was that way for me, and almost died trying to make it so. I just didn't want to make amends, and I was too self-centered to spend time helping other alcoholics, and it damn near killed me.

[FightingIrish]

i can't speak to that...finished all my amends here...

[McGowdog]

Good deal MeBucko! That's where the rubber meets the road, huh?

I had a few ammends to finish too. I finished them and yes, I was amazed.

[paulmh]

The AA Fellowship is very open to let you interpret what this God is. They beg of you to think honestly, search diligently within yourself, sweep away prejudice, stuff like that.

Thanks McGowdog. Maybe I sound very confused but having had direct experience of G*d, or conscious contact with the eternal, or whatever, I'm grateful for the encouragement I got in fellowship and recovery to "think honestly, look diligently and sweep away prejudices." These are among the gifts that recovery has given me. BUt I still would count myself as an agnostic. JUst a more honest, diligent and without prejudice one. And one who tries to imporve my conscious contact too.

It's interesting though to me, that one of the medieval definitions of pride I came across in my travels was "to put one's self on a par with G*d". It was a perfect description for me of how pride wroked, because I was forever judging people and I was always right, and I knew everything there was to know about them. Turns out of course that I'm just a normal joe, who knows very little - but the programme of recovery has completely turned around my pride and shown me how to live as a normal joe - something I couldn't do before. Before I was always in conflict between thinking I knew everything, and the harsh reality hitting me between the eyes demostrating that I didn't. I encountered the stark raving sober version of this in sobriety when I challenged someone who I had decided wasn't a "real" alcoholic. Turns out that it's not for me to decide whether someone is a real alcoholic. It's for G*d. What contact with G*d teahces me to do is think honestly, search diligently and sweep away prejudice, like you said.

[keithj]

Originally Posted by FightingIrish

I think I would like the "recovered folks" more if their programs were based on affirming their own experiences rather than belittling others.

Interesting observation. The friction I see in my own local AA community is when somebody crosses that line. Those that carry a message of recovery as the result of a spiritual awakening, those that talk about taking the action and living the principles outlined in the Big Book, are in the minority. That message is grudgingly tolerated at the more mainstream meetings, with a rolling of the eyes. However, when someone shares something like, "this book isn't very popular around here," or "keep coming back nearly killed me," things turn downright caustic.

I've been wondering how to fit in with this. The best I can do is consult my conscience and trust that close contact with my higher power will guide my actions. And do a little research. I stumbled onto these forums while searching for some opinions and insight on this topic.

I fundamentally believe it's a dis-service to give a hopeless alcoholic the impression that coming to meetings and not drinking is going to result in much change. From my own experience, I was in AA before, and everyone was more than willing to love me until I could love myself. And I got really involved and chaired meetings, and had a service position, and then got really drunk. When I came back to AA after some time, I got in the book, took the steps, had a spiritual awakening, and I recovered. No ifs ands buts about it. I'm not scared to say that. It's the truth.

But I've taken a little softer approach with the folks that never talk about recovery or the steps or a higher power. Their sharing is usually a litany of the drinking and bad things they've done, and how thankful they are now for not living that way. I'm realizing that is the extent of their experience. That's all they have to share. So they share it. The sad part is, newcomers that take this approach are rarely around a year later. Newcomers that get all the way in, disect the book and take the steps, all recover. Just like me.

I really am wondering how this all plays out and would appreciate some feedback.

[tommyk]

Huge difference to me between talking about a Higher Power and talking about God.

I believe the Higher Power concept can be discussed in any setting, because we each choose our own (non-religious) Higher Power.

Many people come into the program with 'an attitude', their disease is looking for something to not like, their disease wants something to focus on as an excuse to not come back. The disease is strong. Mentioning a Higher Power instead of referencing God gives the disease one less thing to gripe about.

I have also referred to GOD as Good Orderly Direction on some occasions, something we can all use, right?

[Music]

The way I see it is this. God and I weren't on the best of terms when I came to AA until with about six months sober, I was faced with making "that" decision. Drink or not drink??? I didn't want to drink bad enough so I prayed. I didn't drink and have never since, been faced with having to make that decision.

The fact is that the only step that doesn't involve HP or God whichever you prefer, is the first one. The rest, through and including the 12th are HP/God steps. So, my advice to people who are offended by HP/God talk is to either get over it, or go back out and drink until they are more offended by their actions and the state of their existance that to talk about HP/God. Alcohol is our best advocate. Alcohol convinces people of things that just talking ever could. Matter of fact, if I'm anywhere around, I'll buy the first one. I'm always willing to help.

[McGowdog]

Thank you Paulmh.

To me, agnostic means God is unknowable.

Well I believe that I have this itty bitty spec of sand truth of God that is different than anybody elses truth of God and that we're all right and none of us are wrong. Unless of course, you're not staring at the same elephant I am.

I recently did my 9th Step Ammends and currently do 10th Steps and use the 10th Step to help me become aware in my 11th Step's "when we retire at night" and I bring my recovery to the fellowship to grow and help others and it did one thing for me... enabled me to be eye to eye with my fellows.

Eye to eye and toe to toe with my fellow humans.

I have no idea what else you were talking about.

I don't know what you mean about putting myself on par with God. That sound pretty arrogant to me, bud!

I do arrogant and pride, fo sho! I hear it's not my arrogance that'll kill me. It's my pride of it!

[24hrsAday]

i am not scared of talking about god from time to time.. but.. i don't preach.. my way is not the only way. bill w talks in the big book about his experience with his friend in his kitchen.. to me that says it all.. you find your own conception of god.. what works for you?

[doorknob]

Originally Posted by ananda

ah my kind of meeting

Ditto, but in my experience they are few and far between.