How do the twelve steps really work? Are AA and the twelve steps the same?

[firestorm090]

I hope I don't p*ss off too many people here, but I tried AA for almost two years, about five years ago, and found the experience to be really strange. I am considering going back to try to find some fellow recovery friends, but am hesitant because I don't agree with much of what I experienced.

For example, when I went to my first meeting, I sat down with a group of guys, who started asking me personal questions about my life, before the meeting began. They asked me if I had a sponsor, which I didn't because it was the first time I had gone there, so how could I have a sponsor? They assigned me a sponsor, who I didn't even know, and over time came to not like at all. he talked a lot of stuff about having 25 yrs. sober, yet he couldn't pay for his own meals. Every time we went to the "meeting after the meeting" he would order dinner, or breakfast, coffee or pie and ask me to cover him, which he never reciprocated. he was, in my opinion, a sober mooch, preying on newcomers to feed his fat self. I became disgusted with him, he was lazy, two-hundred pounds overweight, and he's trying to control my life??? Huh? I found that many in the "rooms" wanted to take control of their "pigeons", as we were called. I resented that name, I'm not a pigeon, I was a drunk looking for help. I also tired quickly of his admonitions that my way didn't work, but his did, so he was the AA guru. Come on, after 25 yrs. you can't buy your own damn breakfast? Get real. I tried another sponsor, who told me to call him every day, so I did, only to rarely even talk to him. I thought I had problems till I met him. What a nutcase, but he sure was good at giving the same talk every week, being on the speaker circuit, and acting like all was well, hell I did that when I was drunk, why did I need him to show me how to be full of shi$ when I was sober? I was told by a counselor that I should try AA and that a sponsor would help guide me through the twelve steps. What I found were guys who wanted to infringe on all areas of my life, try to control me, nag at me if I missed a meeting, tell me not to date so&so for the first year, or I would drink. That's another thing, the fear of alcohol just oozed in the rooms, like a foreboding presence out to grab me at any time. I never was forced to drink and I drank by picking up the bottle myself, not having the bottle jump into my hands. Why stop drinking if I'm going to spend my life in fear of the next drink? I think I'd rather just drink it and get it over with.

So, that's the beginning of my confusion about these twelve steps. Where's the magic? Do you need to sit around with a bunch of ex-drunks to get the message? What is the real message here? I've never had a problem with saying I believe in God, I do, and that's not a problem with me. I call Him God, although I concede he may actually be a she. That I don't know. But I believe in God, so is that the real message I missed? I try to do right to the best of my ability, but when I was going to AA, I always felt like I was under a microscope, being judged by some guys who hadn't drank for years, but that I wouldn't want to hang out with for ten minutes. I may be a drunk, but I'm sure as h*ll not stupid, although I've done some stupid things. I always felt less than the older members, because it seemed they were more hung up on how long it had been since their last drink than it was to live a happy, productive, and cohesive life.

OK, that's my vent about AA. I heard the message many times, but apparently didn't see the real thing in action. Maybe that's it, it was just given a bunch of lip service, but not real in the lives of those spewing it out.

I just wonder if I went to meetings again, if it would be any different? Is it helpful to recovery to hang around with others who seem more dysfunctional than yourself?

Thanks for reading all of this, it's built up over five years. When I left AA, I was so disgusted that I threw the Big Book I had in the trash.

[Emimily]

hmm. well, i'm sorry you have a bad taste in your mouth about AA. i know plenty of sober guys who are nothing like the men you described. most of the men i know meet their sponsees at coffee shops before meetings, or on weekends, or whatever works and they go through the big book and work the steps. one of my best friends picks his sponsees up to take them to a meeting once a week. another one of my friends works the steps so thoroughly that his sponsees know more about AA than i do sometimes.

i think there's a lot to be said for open mindedness and willingness, especially if you've had a bad experience in AA before. maybe different meetings? maybe you are different? maybe different people? or maybe AA's not the right fit for you... in our literature, it's made crystal clear that AA doesn't have a monopoly on God or ways to get sober.

the steps are designed to bring you closer to your higher power, which you choose to call God. surrender, confess your faults, ask God to remove your character defects, start clearing up your side of the street, continue to do the first 4, and carry it on. not too terribly complicated.

my miracle is that i am alive and useful, not drunk or dead or completely void of any purpose. that miracle came from working the steps with a sponsor, staying sober, making mistakes and not drinking over them, and being as honest, open minded, and willing as possible. sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly but always one day at a time.

[aasharon90]

Hi Im Sharon and Im an alcoholic.

I read ur share and uderstand where
u r coming from. Many more members
here will also pop in to share their
thoughts with u just as i will.

I went thru rehab 28 days brought
on by a family intervention. Aug. 11,
1990 was my first full sober day.

Family sought help for me when i
couldnt help myself....

No im not dumb or stupid either and
i dont have a college degree. Im just
me who was powerless over drinking.

I was also told at the beginning to
find 2 people to be my sponsor.
Right, i said sarcastically in my mind....

I dont like to be told what to do.
And if in ur voice it sounds like telling
then i will shut u out.

However if u suggest to me in getting
one would be helpful then ill think
about it.

I wound up working my program
my way and have stayed sober
a few one days at a time collected.

I wont recommend my way to anyone.

You have to find what works well for u.

Some have tried it their way and
found their way didnt work and thus
sought help in other ways.

I did go to many many many meetings
because no one in my family were alcoholics
and thus didnt undertand my recovery
and how important it was and is for me.

People in meetings do undertand me in
the way that i cant drink like normal
people can. I have been there done that
kind of stuff that most people do that
sit in those meetings.

Listening to them allows me to relate and
understand that im not alone in this disease
of alcoholism.

The 12 steps.....u can conquer them
right off the bat or u can live them
everyday of ur life happy joyous and free
without alcohol or drugs.

I live the steps in my everyday life.
and i stay sober by sharing my experiences
strenghts and hopes with others of what
it was like during my drinking, what
happened to me while drinking and
where i am now.

Today i have a purpose in life. And that
purpose is to help the next person coming
into recovery by sharing my ESH with them.

It gives the newcomer hope and helps
me stay sober one more day.

[Rusty Zipper]

fs, i agree with em...

the steps show us how much of a ass we really were, all we hurt, and what damage we have done...

to others, and ourselves...

the steps show us how to be accountable, live life on lifes terms, and above all, show us were not the center of the universe...

and yes, carry the message to the next lost suffering soul

the steps dont change life, just our reaction to it...

and as far as what happened to you...

i see that crap going on, and you know what?

i get unspiritual fit, call the buggers out on it, and do a pronto 10th step!

good wishes on your journey fs!

your fello traveler...

rz

[Rusty Zipper]

oh, and keep searching out meetings, or groups, you will find one thats more helpfull, we hope & pray!

[paulmh]

Sorry can't help. My experience of AA is completely at odds with yours. My sponsor has never once taken anything off me but has given me plenty. I've seldom if ever felt judged in an AA meeting. Also AA meetings I go to there's exactly no fear of alcohol. No-one tried to regulate my behaviour, but they did offer suggestions, and they're not in the slightest bit hung up about how long they've been sober.

I know that alcoholics are dysfunctional and I've met plenty of people whose lives weren't quite "in balance" in the rooms. But they were all on a journey in a similar direction, and I've watched people with more sober time than me continue to get well, and I've watched - and sponsored - people in AA who've gone from dysfunctional messes to increasingly peaceful and calm people. So - I don't know where you did your AA. But it doesn't sound anything like mine.

[Pinkcuda]

Picking a sponsor can be like fishing. For some reason you hook a lot of carp.
I always encourage a variety of meetings and a moderate amount of time before asking for a sponsor. There are a lot of bottom feeders out there wanting to sponsor you for selfish reasons. Mostly to feed their ego. Run from the first person to use the word "Pigeon". These are the prideful ones that still have a lot of recovering to do. Usually if they have taken all 12 steps themselves this trait doesn't exist. Steps 1 and 12 seem to be the most common steps taken. Everything in between doesn't matter.
Sit in enough meetings and you can tell who's who.

[paulmh]

Picking a sponsor can be like fishing. For some reason you hook a lot of carp.

[Music]

I've never had a problem with authority. I just didn't like being told what to do. How I survived 25 years in the military, I'll never know. Anyway, I guess any success I've had staying sober in AA is because I was just sick and tired of being sick and tired. I was ready to listen and to do what I was told. My way just wasn't working and the proof of that was that I was sitting in an AA meeting, telling people I'd never met, the terrible things I'd done to myself, family, friends and others, when I got drunk. I was just ready to do whatever it took to not drink any more. I think if there is a secret to getting sober and staying sober it's that I have to be ready to follow instructions. Strong healthy minded people are generally not the ones that show up at AA meetings so I had to set aside their faults and dysfunctions and pay attention to my own. It's worked so far today.

[IO Storm]

Sorry you were introduced into the program by some rotten trees. There is a

"forrest" of good guys out there. Great sponsors for men..at least that's what I see and

hear. And the Steps? I recall getting roses from my ex-husband when we were

separated. I threw the vase into the trash..but my boss caught them in mid air.

"It's not the flowers' fault, Sherry," she said.

Chances are..you will find a gem the next time around.

[nelco]

Oh Dear , that sounds like a horrible experience and not the AA I know either. I never heard the word pigeon till I came on this site and is it an American thing?? I think its a dreadful word to use. I would not be paying for anyone's dinner either!! what program are these people on....the arrogance of it all!!
Listen for people to whom you identify, people who seem to be trying to live good lives...There are those who talk the talk, and there are those who walk the walk. If you can say about one of them.......I want what they have......then ask them to sponsor you. It may take a few meetings in a few different groups, but there are real good people out there and they don't have to be YEARS in AA .
The first step says WE are powerless not I am powerless. A A is about unity not a I ,self ,Me thing, thats how it works....If you get a good sponsor, that is someone at least a little less dsyfuntional than yourself....(they are around.).. and are willinging to take on a few suggestions, then your thinking will eventually change and resentments will no longer trouble you at least not for as long as this one did. Wishing you all the best on your journey..

[CarolD]

AA is not for everyone....perhaps another recovery program
would be more beneficial.
i have stopped trying to convince anyone.

Best of luck

[Cubile75]

Go to a different group... your description of your experience sounds horrible.

At my group... "Sponsorship is encouraged, see a group member or take a booklet off the rack if you have any questions"... that's it... you want a sponsor? ask a group member.

At my group... "I don't have to drink anymore" is a commonly heard phrase.

At my group.... New members are given a meeting schedule and those group members with at least 6 months sobriety are encouraged to write their first name and phone # on the back... If the new man (or woman... just using a BB phrase...) wants to talk to someone, it's up to him to make the call.

I go 20 minutes early and am one of the last to leave after cleaning up. Heck, I'd gladly buy one these guys breakfast if only they'd ask... I think it's up to me to do the asking ....

We have step meetings, speaker meetings, discussion meetings...

Newcomers are "newcomers"... they are the most important person there... they are human beings, not birds.

I'm not trying to brag or anything, just trying to show my enthusiasm for my home group. My home group is a good fit for ME... it may not be for someone else... I've been to a couple others... some I have been back to, some, well.... let's say I went once.

Keep looking and if too many red flags are raised at a particular meeting, check out another group if you can. I am lucky in that there are many groups to choose from around these parts...

Glad to see you haven't written AA off completely yet. And I'm glad to see all your posts...

Mark

[firestorm090]

After reading the replies, which I am grateful for, I think I will try a couple of new meetings, I'm sure there are some around here, maybe not close, but I will try to find them. I want to have some friends that don't drink, but since I don't go to church, I think AA is the place to go. I'll take it slow, and try to find those whom I can relate to. I think, in answer to my own question, that recovery is a personal journey and not one that can be forced or monitored for a certain degree of progress achieved by a certain time. I think sponsors should be guides, not Gods, in essence just another drunk helping another find a way to live that works. That makes sense to me.

D*mn, wish I still had that Big Book, I'm embarrassed to buy another, sigh.

Thank you all for your kind and thoughtful replies. This is one drunk who has just plain drank enough.

[Music]

Originally Posted by nelco

I never heard the word pigeon till I came on this site and is it an American thing?? I think its a dreadful word to use.

Yes, it is an American thing. Apparently you've never read Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers. If you don't like the use of "pigeon" to fondly describe a newcomer, try "Baby" and see if that works for you. Dr. Bob, the co-founder of AA coined both terms to refer to the people he sponsored and in spite of political correctness, so do I. I have been and still am a pigeon to my sponsor. As little a deal as this may seem, people these days need to get past the ego thingy and just get with the program instead of trying to find reasons not to belong.

[CarolD]

I'm really pleased to see you are going to
try different groups.
AA is where I found a huge circle of friends
who had what I wanted....health and purpose.

Look on the free literature rack....most meetings have
the official AA guideline.....

"Questions and Answers on Sponsorship"

I don't think the word pigeon is used
but I could be wrong. I never use it.

Forward we go....side by side

[Zencat]

Originally Posted by firestorm090

D*mn, wish I still had that Big Book, I'm embarrassed to buy another, sigh.

Here's the Big Book online. So that might due in the mean time .

[lizw]

A guy I know in AA, who has been round the program for years but is currently 4 or 5 years sober, tells this really funny/tragic story about getting a sponsor who used to take him the the race course (horse racing), park the car and get him to read the BB out to him while he watched the horses through binoculars. He tells the story because it took him months to realise his sponsor had a serious gambling problem and the story not only shows the self centredness of the alcoholic - everything is either an exstention of or in reaction to, us - and that sponsors are no more 'cured' than you or I. Sure they may have more expereince in certain areas of their lives but everyone has different strengths.

You've got some great advice and I hope you don't think we're all nutters.
And I've a friend in AA who calls her sponsees pigeons. Lol.
She says it affectionally and means well but I only know this because we are friends.
If she was my sponsor and called me a pigeon I'd be deeply offended.

[IO Storm]

Zencat..

That was so thoughtful of you to post the link.

firestorm..

I wouldn't like being called a pidgeon either.

I am a girl. (woman..lol)

But..I am my sponsor's "baby." She has been know to defend her "babies"..at times,

and she has done so for me on a couple of occasions that I will never forget

and I will always appreciate. Strange..I am only recalling her using using that word

now. But each individual has a right to speak up and say if something is rubbing

them the wrong way..especially if it's tearing the skin off you!

I have this relationship with her..I have jumped off her sofa and paced..

what a lady..we can really have some good convo's.

And I like what paulmh said about fishing for a sponsor..you can catch a lot of

carp. lol

There are many ponds..and and some "keepers" out there.

Good luck!

[firestorm090]

My thanks button keeps getting stuck.

Thanks to all of you for your help. Guess I'll keep fishing.

[paulmh]

As little a deal as this may seem, people these days need to get past the ego thingy and just get with the program instead of trying to find reasons not to belong.

That's it, right there.

[nelco]

Yes, it is an American thing. Apparently you've never read Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers. If you don't like the use of "pigeon" to fondly describe a newcomer, try "Baby" and see if that works for you. Dr. Bob, the co-founder of AA coined both terms to refer to the people he sponsored and in spite of political correctness, so do I. I have been and still am a pigeon to my sponsor. As little a deal as this may seem, people these days need to get past the ego thingy and just get with the program instead of trying to find reasons not to belong

meant I never heard it once used in the rooms TODAY regarding new members!! I wont be trying Baby either thank you. Much rather call the person by their name, finding that much more respectful.... regardless of where it came from I still dont like it. Thats just for me. Oh and I belong thanks.

[navysteve]

Nelco,
I don't prefer the labels either and I am quite sure my ego is in check.

FS,

I understand why you don't like the word ( I don't prefer it either). There are alot of BS stories about the use of the word:

that pigeons are called that because they fly around and **** all over everyone, or because if you give them a message they deliver it somewhere but never get the message themselves.

the term was originally meant endearingly. Benjamin Franklin was said to observe that drunks became pigeon eyed. Dr Bob did have a flare for language and did coin the term in AA ( As the story goes), it has turned into derogatory term and I can certainly understand why it would offend you. A suggestion:

Find a sponsor who uses the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by nelco

meant I never heard it once used in the rooms TODAY regarding new members!! I wont be trying Baby either thank you. Much rather call the person by their name, finding that much more respectful.... regardless of where it came from I still dont like it. Thats just for me. Oh and I belong thanks.

I would start by putting Music on the first column, why he has offended you on the second column, and what it affects on the third column.

Maybe you'll see the truth about your ego is so over-protective of itself. But don't be afraid to look because it might be uncomfortable.

Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition

[Music]

Originally Posted by navysteve

it has turned into derogatory term and I can certainly understand why it would offend you.

Yup, just like a cucumber turns into a pickle. The use of pigeon and baby didn't just "turn" into a derogatory term. These days if enough people say something enough times, all of a sudden it becomes truth, even if it's self-serving and only makes that one person feel better. I've found that only people who're overly sensitive and egotistical are offended by pigeon or baby. These same people tend to think that AA should change to suit them, much the same as our consitution should change to suit people who don't agree with it. Somewhere I read that we quit fighting anything or anyone and that love and tolerance is our code. I'm wondering if these principles are really important, or are they used only when they suit a person's sensitivites. Of course, I do understand that we drunks are known for being sensitive people but in my own personal experience, I was only sensitive to others when it stood to benefit me. This is a shortcoming that's still in the works.

I hope I haven't shared more than I intended!!