Big Book Quote

[CarolD]

*~*~*~*~*^ Big Book Quote ^*~*~*~*~*

"So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They
arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of
self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so."


~Alcoholics Anonymous, 1st. Edition,
How It Works, pg. 62~

[RufusACanal]

Here I am.

[lizw]

I hope someone(s) reply to this as I have been pondering these things for awhile...

Over the last few years I have questioned this statement a lot because while I think it is true when I came in, I don't think it is quite so true now. I also say this because of where it is actually located in the BB. It doesn't say, we had a spiritual awakeing then made decisions based on self etc.. So if we've had a spiritual awakening and all our ideas, beliefs and motives have changed, we are not (on the whole) making these decisions based on self, are we?

I suppose I've come to wonder if this statement is a bit like the promises in the BB which come after the 9th step, but a lot of people mistakenly think they are going to get them from doing 90 in 90.

The other reason I question the use of applying this statement when one has been sober awhile is because it is a very childish idea that the world evolves around me. As in things other people do is just in reaction to me. As in another persons bad behavior is my fault or I 'had a part to play in it.' I'm not saying this is always the case, as I am by no means a saint but as I said, it is quite childish to think I cause other people to do things. I mean am I really that powerful? Of course my head says I am but seriously??

Any of the Big Book folks want to chime in? Jim? Rob? Anyone?
Be great to read what you think...

[sugErspun]

I will "chime" in ~ as this passage probably means more to me than anything...because I am going to have problems, become upset etc. Those things are not avoidable because they come out of me, while I am still here ~ those problems will be here as well.

Having had a spiritual awakening does not mean I am free and clear of slipping out of such, or that I am even 'awake' all the time. However, I do know this - whenever I have a problem, or find myself uncomfortable, restless...it is no one elses fault. The pointing of fingers came to an end with this realization. It's either true, or it isn't ~ I believe that it is. No one else has to change at all for me to be happy.

A speaker I have been listening to (8 disc set) put it like this: "If you are justifying, rationalizing or defending ANYTHING. You are wrong. You never have to defend, justify or rationalize what is right. You are only inclined to do so when you are wrong." (as a note ~ this was him reciting something he had been told. This is not a talk of instructions on how to live life and it not aimed at the audience...just part of a pitch.)

So - any problem I have with anything has come out of ME. I try to keep it that black and white, and it really has been a godsend in dealing with "problems" in my life.

I hope that makes some sense

[Tommyh]

Liz,I agree,that passage from the Big Book applies to the defects first listed on your first 4th step inventory.


We can have problems that are not from our own making,past and present tense.Just because we have a problem don`t mean we are at fault,in the past or in the present.
example:
if you return home from work and find your home was intentionally burned down,you have a big problem.Of course you would not be at fault,a arsonist would be at fault.

I do believe if those defects listed in chgapter 5 of the Big Book control my life again,yes,I will have problems arising from within myself,but just because one or more of them raise their ugly head occasi9onally,well,thats just the human condition,and it will happen.This is never cured as long as we are alive.

We do have the right to defend certain things in certain cases and it is ok,and should be expected.To not defend it would be irresponsible.Sounds like your friend has pitched some of his religious budissism or some new age stuff in his talk Adam.It does not look like AA

[IO Storm]

I am going out on a long limb here...

The passage, to me, has always seemed to implicate the active alcoholic before

recovery and beginning Stepwork..and a spiritual change. Maybe I could add the alcoholic

in the so called "dry drunk." I welcome other poster's replies! lol

To answer part of your question, Liz.. Bill said.."Before we are halfway through..

we will know a new freedom and a new happiness.."

I do not know where the idea comes that promises begin to appear after the ninth..I

know many feel a spiritual change can only happen after all the Steps have been taken.

But..just as religions place God in a box..(it can't be done) IMOP...I do not believe

any individual experience in AA is going to be the same.

I had a miraculous "Bill W." experience in a hotel 2 years..10 months ago..instantly

relieved of all desire of drugs. I had stopped drinking earlier..and had a powerful

spiritual experience that has never left me. The desire for alcohol or drugs has

not returned..with the exception of two occasions..that lasted for a fleeting

moment, when I was under tremendous stress. Maybe..my experience is exceptional?

I don't really know. I have been taking my Steps, and working with a good sponsor..

I had the bottom of bottoms..suicidal. The utltimate self will run riot.

In taking the Steps..then, even with this spiritual change..so much more has been

revealed. In the inventory..I saw where self will had caused so much of what I had

thought I had been a "victim" of. It helped me then..on other steps.

On 8..making my amends list. It helped me to drop the word "blame" from my

vocabulary..and taught me how to let go of resentment.

I love the Steps. When I do the daily tenth..undoubtedly..self! Is right there..glaring

at me, in some way or other, (all I do is ask.."God, show me."..and He does, promptly.)

It is a trait that we share..just my opinion..

Goodwill.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by lizw

I hope someone(s) reply to this as I have been pondering these things for awhile...

Over the last few years I have questioned this statement a lot because while I think it is true when I came in, I don't think it is quite so true now. ...

Ponder this statment; "When they crop up..."


"When" being the operative word here.

Originally Posted by sugErspun

No one else has to change at all for me to be happy...

Bingo! And this is what I think is the magic of the 9th Step. This is what enables me to get toe to toe and eyeball to eyeball with the world again. And they can go on being themselves.

My thoughts; If I ever experienced the doing of steps to exhault me to some plane of existence where I never fart on anybody and never indulge in selfish, self-seeking, self-centered, fearful, resentful, inconsiderate, dishonest, etc., behavior... then I never have to work steps again, including Step 10!

In fact, God can pluck me right up out of this heap and take me to the Land of Milk and Honey! Where we can live off the fat of the Land!!!!!!

But what about Steps 6 and 7? Who amongst us think they've ever done a perfect 6 and 7? If God removes from me each and every "defect of character", what use would I ever be to another alcoholic?

It reminds me of these guys I hear in meetings, "Now that I'm sober..."

[lizw]

Originally Posted by bballdad

We can have problems that are not from our own making,past and present tense.Just because we have a problem don`t mean we are at fault,in the past or in the present.
example:
if you return home from work and find your home was intentionally burned down,you have a big problem.Of course you would not be at fault,a arsonist would be at fault.

This is excactly what I mean.

I think I have mislead some of you or you may have missed the point. It is neither about blame or another person 'making me unhappy' but rather about how the world doesn't evolve around us drinking or sober.

[keithj]

Nice discussion and a lot of thoughtful comments. I've always taken that to mean what it says, that selfish and self-centered thinking is the root of my trouble. Alcohol is but a symptom, or a failed solution that stopped working. So, if the selfishness is the root of my trouble, it is doubtful that my selfishness is going to vanish entirely or quickly. My reality is that although I approach life from a new footing, and have a new perspective on the world and my place in it, selfishness still manifests in my behavior in various ways. It's something that pops up all the time. But today, I am not driven by it, am not controlled by it. I recognize it in a daily inventory, pray for the defects which stand in the way my usefullness to be removed, and act as if they had been removed.

And then they pop up again. Oh well. The book tells us that we don't even have to harm others, that decisions based in self place us in a position to be harmed. But I find that if I am actively seeking my higher power's will for me, even I don't know what that will is, the seeking keeps my self will in check. And makes for a fairly peaceful, happy life.

[IO Storm]

Wow Keithj..loved your post. The whole thing.

Welcome to the forum..and SR!

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by keithj

. I've always taken that to mean what it says, that selfish and self-centered thinking is the root of my trouble. Alcohol is but a symptom, or a failed solution that stopped working. So, if the selfishness is the root of my trouble, it is doubtful that my selfishness is going to vanish entirely or quickly. My reality is that although I approach life from a new footing, and have a new perspective on the world and my place in it, selfishness still manifests in my behavior in various ways. It's something that pops up all the time. But today, I am not driven by it,...

That's what I think liz was getting at too. Evidently, we must have our selfishness at bay enough... for the obsession to drink hasn't returned, right?

We can even stumble a bit... but we must check our motives from time to time and "let God take us to better things", but if our behavior continues...

Welcome to SR Keith, btw.

[sugErspun]

I didn't take what I posted as religious at all...I just relate to it.

Whenever I have a problem ~ typically resentment, my action today is to look at what part I played. The nature of the problem does not lie in others as it only occurs in me.

For instance, I was recently upset about some things going on at my office. I could post all the details here and no one here would react the way I did to them (getting upset). When I went back and saw what part I played - it came out, I started the ball rolling and when things didn't go my way I didn't like it much. It is just happenstance and maybe some things I learned along the way (one of which being ~ if I have a problem, I need to look at me first) that I didn't take any action that require ammends.

The example of a house burning down is a good example ~ I know A LOT of people who wouldn't mind if their houses burned down...could finally get out from under that loan they are now upside down on (ie - borrowed more than they could afford and now suffering financially because of it ~ they set up the whole thing [this is just example btw]). The nature of a home burning down is neither "bad" nor "good" ~ it's how I am attached to it (that admittedly is a little 'buddhist' in view).

It is just been my experience that no resentment is justifiable...I can always find the truth of it in me.

Good thread.

[Tommyh]

maybe if Bill had said

"So our [emotional-mental] troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They
arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of
self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so."

I was read8ing in the 12x12 today,steps 4 and 5 when this came to mind.
Thought it was worth throwing out here and seeing what we could reel in.