Sober but not clean

[REZ]

I go to AA and NA. I've been sponsoring a fellow who only goes to AA but he also had a drug problem. He hasn't been going to NA. He has been without alcohol for about 8 months and has been going to meetings and working steps. The other night, he used some nitrous oxide, but he didn't drink. He doesn't feel like he had a relapse. I told him he needs to go back to step one and should pick up a white chip. He says he doesn't want to pick up a white chip, because he didn't drink. I know that AA has a singleness of purpose and focuses on only alcohol, I don't think you're working an honest and diligent program in AA if you don't deal with your use of other drugs. Thoughts?

[Astro]

Just my opinion, clean and sober go hand-in-hand. I have to be both to be honest with myself and everyone else, the use of any mind-altering substance would be reason for me to change my recovery date.

[nandm]

This is actually a subject I have heard discussed many times within my group of AA friends. There seem to be two distinct points of view on this.

The first: AA is Alcoholics Anonymous therefore if one is not using alcohol then they have not relapsed. Drug use is not encouraged but it is a separate issue. The person who holds this belief states two cases where people who had been "sober" in AA for 5 - 10 years went out on prescription pain killers. These individuals wound up drinking again when they were told they had to restart their sobriety date. The thought is they felt like if they had to give up their sobriety date they might as well make it worth it. They were discouraged because of the loss of the date.

The second: Believes that "a drug is a drug" and any substance put into the body that changes our thoughts or emotions is a drug including alcohol.

Personally I have mixed emotions regarding this in part probably because drug use was never an issue with me. Drugs only got in the way of my drinking so I stayed away from them. I do know though that I was put on oxycodone following a motorcycle accident that nearly killed me. I was on this medication for 4 months, took it only as prescribed, and actually decided that I did not need it and stopped taking it (replaced it with Ibuprofen). I was a week into withdrawls before I realized my body was withdrawing from the medication. I did not have any cravings or mental obsession to take the medication. Some people believe that I should have restarted my sobriety date because of that. I don't. There was no obsession, I took them only per the instructions of the doctor and only for a real medical condition and I stopped taking them at the first opportunity. I could never have done that with alcohol. Personally I believe that it comes down to motives, why was the drug taken, if it was for any reason other than a real medical condition then it is likely one needs to take a closer look at their 12 Step program and possibly consider restarting their sobriety date. Just my opinion though

[freya]

I think you're gonna get some strong opinions on both sides of this question -- mostly agreeing with you, but some just as strongly disagreeing. The disagreeing ones will be divided, somewhat lopsidedly, between those who see the Traditions as rules rather than guidelines and who read/interpret them absolutely literally and narrowly as humanly possible and those who have a personal agenda that somehow involves defending recreational drug use.

And I think that all of that could potentially make for an entertaining and maybe even explosive thread.

But, ultimately, I don't think any of it matters.

What matters is that you are supposedly this man's sponsor. In order for that sponsor/sponsee relationship to work effectively, this man needs to want what you have and to be willing to do what you've done to get it. It sounds like, at the moment, it is highly questionable whether or not that is indeed the case. Personally, if I were in an analogous situation with a sponsee, I would first try clarifying with the sponsee what it is he thinks we're doing in this relationship and why exactly he chose me to do it with in the first place. Then, based on the outcome of that conversation, I would want to take time to do some praying about and give some careful consideration to the risks and benefits, both to myself, to the sponsee (and to other people who may be in a better position to truly benefit from my sponsorship) of our continuing in this relationship.

I personally have found that it tends to be very frustrating -- and ultimately unfulfilling and ineffective -- for all involved for me to be sponsoring people who either don't really want what I have or who just aren't willing to do what I've done to get it.

freya

[Rob B]

AA is concerned about booze only. That being said, I will not work with someone actively using drugs and claiming sober time. Recovery can't be built with a lie as a foundation. Also, the ego attachment to time is concerning, sounds like it is time for you to have a talk with your guy. I would pray and meditate on it.

[Tommyh]

I`m with you Rob

[Freedom1990]

Originally Posted by Rob B

AA is concerned about booze only. That being said, I will not work with someone actively using drugs and claiming sober time. Recovery can't be built with a lie as a foundation.

Same here for me. I won't work with someone not drinking, but still using drugs.

[Mark75]

Nitrous Oxide's only legitimate use on humans is as a part of anesthesia for a dental or medical procedure, period... It was used by this individual recreationally.

If I use any mind altering substance for recreation and without a valid medical reason, I will change my sobriety date... That date is important... to me. If I were not to change it, I would not be rigorously honest. Rigorous honesty is important to my program of recovery.

If I were sponsoring someone, and I'm not, not nearly enough sober time, I would want my sponsee to be rigorously honest with himself....

Mark

[laurie6781]

Here's my take and my take only and yes I've got a 'few' ODAAT's of being sober and clean.

In order to be sober and/or clean, it is not using ANY MIND ALTERING CHEMICALS. Yes alcohol is a 'mind altering chemical'.

J M H O, I do not work with those that are not willing to give it ALL up.

Love and hugs,

[Ago]

His "sober date" is none of my business

Me sponsoring him, however is.

I can't sponsor someone unless they are rigorously honest about working a program.

I would let him go as a sponsee and explain why.

Because I will not enable someone else's lie, that affects my integrity, and my program.

[lizw]

For me it is clean and sober too.
I've only ever sponsored one person who had been smoking pot and she threw a fit when I suggested she change her soberity birthday date. She refused, which was fine but when she asked me to share at it, I passed. I don't sponsor her anymore for other reasons.

[navysteve]

so·bri·e·ty (s-br-t, s-)
n.
1. Gravity in bearing, manner, or treatment.
2. Abstinence from consumption of alcoholic liquor or use of drugs: "three years of drug-free sobriety" Ron Rosenbaum. See Synonyms at abstinence.


Alcoholism and addiction are the same disease ( don't confuse this for a drug is a drug is a drug) in my honest opinion. Both are treated with the 12 steps. Both require abstinence from substances. Your man definitely sounds like he is stuck on step 1.

Our liquor was but a symptom. So we had to ge t down to causes and conditions.

BB page 64.

If that is true about booze, is it true about drugs????? I think so. The debate about sober time and drug use is as old as the fellowship, and is about as useless an argument one can get into in my opinion. Time is just a date on the calendar. I don't mean that to sound like I don't place value in long term sobriety, but our emphasis with sober time is out of proportion with its real importance, besides showing people that the program works.

As matters grow worse, he begins to use a combination of high-powered sedative
and liquor to quiet his nerves so he can go to work. Then comes the day when he simply cannot make it and gets drunk all over again. Perhaps he goes to a doctor who gives him morphine or some sedative with which to taper off. Then he begins to appear at hospitals and sanitariums.

BB pg 22

As matters grow worse he begins using drugs???? Sounds like drug use can be a part of our alcoholism ( even if we are alkies with a drug problem and not dually addicted as many of you are).

Bottom line, sobriety is the absence of alcohol or drugs, but what the hell do I know????

[FightingIrish]

Two of the most useful and longest-sober members of my group relate in their stories how they smoked pot for quite some time in secret after they stopped drinking and came into the rooms of A.A.

Their sponsors were patient and understanding with them, and both eventually found that the tools of the program led to the removal of the desire to get high. Both measure their sobriety time by the moment they became permanently abstinent from drugs and alcohol.

As I think of it, many of the long time members of my group also talk about how they continued to drink after first coming to the rooms.

I need to keep that in mind the next time I am judgmental about newcomers who "just aren't getting it." Maybe they will see how their experience can benefit others.

[RufusACanal]

Damn good thread.

"On the other hand - and strange as this may seem to those who do not understand - once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who seemed doomed, who had so many problems he despaired of ever solving them, suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for alcohol, the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules."

When the new man or woman makes a gut honest decision to admit powerlessness and unmanageability, come to believe in a Greater Power and restoration of their sanity and finally the surrendering their will to that Power, a Psychic Change has begun of their entire life, not just one facet.

Here is where the new person fails and we as Sponsors and Teachers; Drinking is but a symptom, Drugs are but a symptom, Sex is but a sympton, Gambling is but a symptom, lying is but a symptom. If the focus is not on "the change" then any attempts to recover will most likely fail. The newcomer fails when they drink or use or lie, or steal. They fail; I have not problem telling them so either. The stakes are too great to candy coat it anymore.

"Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves."


"Half measures will avail you nothing. You stand at the turning point."

[Ago]

Personally I think it's about intent

I once had a grandsponsor who lived in a nudist colony in thailand in the 50's as one of the spiritual solutions he was looking into involved no clothes, he flew over to Japan, and on his 10th sobriety birthday got busted trying out pot.

During that time, they were trying things like acid for a spiritual solution, mushrooms etc, they hadn't quite gotten the whole "drugs are bad mmmmk?" thing we have now.

No one asked him to change his sobriety date, because his intent hadn't been to get loaded, his intent had been to facilitate a spiritual experience.

Plus it helped he had like 50 years of sobriety when he told the story 10 years ago, 50 years of sobriety tends to stop the AA busybodies dead in their tracks.

A few months ago, I was in a health food store, i was buying acai berries, vitamins, a body cleanse, and I bought some herb tea to wash the pills down with.

The tea tasted funny.

I reread the label, and it said "contents may ferment" alcohol level may reach .05% or something. (tasted stronger then that)

@&%@&%#

I poured it out, made some phone calls, and sat down to watch my mind start it's games.

There was no intent to get loaded. There was no intent to drink an alcoholic beverage. there was no sobriety date change.

Like was mentioned earlier about taking prescription meds that alter you. what was the intent? was it taken per prescription? if so, no sobriety date change needed even if it was mood and mind altering.

I'm not saying we are perfect, I am saying that with honesty we can walk through about anything. Without it, we are screwed. just my .02

[navysteve]

Personally I think it's about intent

Of course it is about intent. That type of puritanical logic would say we can't take medications and would need to change our sobriety date. Alot of folks in the 50's were doing some strange things to facilitate a spiritual awakening. The same way many AA's today attend things like sweat lodges and engage in colon cleansing, these things have been said to release endorphins closely resembling being high. It is said that a good colon cleansing can create a lighteheaded experience that many will liken to being high ( probably due to the fasting required to cleanse oneself). It would be the same as mistakenly eating food with alcohol in it. I wouldn't change my sobriety date. Would you???

I was given coffee with khalua once and took a big gulp. As soon as I realized it ( too late I already swallowed!) I put the cup down and let it get cold, it was eventually taken away. I did not run to the bathroom and induce vomitting, I did not go off on my host for providing me with alcohol unbeknownst to me. I did talk to my sponsor about it, but never once suggested I change my date, nor did he.

[REZ]

Thanks for all the feedback!

[RufusACanal]

Definitely intent. Here's a point that struck me; Irish mentions not judging and I truly do not want to get into a semantics conversation or debate. Whether the word is judgement or discernment or whatever, recovery will need an "intent" component. Now on the other side, I tell pidgeons to drink until they are full; I believe in this statement as it was the lynchpin of my eventual recovery. Only when the man or woman is convinced of their position will they take action. If the person cannot get sober and stay sober, then there is a lack of honest intent to stay sober.

[lizw]

Originally Posted by FightingIrish

I need to keep that in mind the next time I am judgmental about newcomers who "just aren't getting it." Maybe they will see how their experience can benefit others.

Tolerant? Yes.
But dishonest? No.
IMO if I am telling or implying that it is okay for a person who identifies as an alcoholic to smoke pot and call themselves sober then I am doing them a great disservice.

At the same time this doesn't mean I make a big deal about what they are doing either, like harping on at them everytime I see them. It just means I quietly say (when asked), "Maybe smoking pot isn't the wisest of ideas and you might like to change your date..."

[DaveBB164]

having had a spiritual experience as a result of the 12 steps any desire to drink or use anything of an intoxicating nature has be removed and it has stayed that way due to continuous work,

I don't understand how it is possible to work the steps living my life on spiritual principles and use or drink,

today I don't have an obsession to drink, if I was using other substances I would have to say my obsession had not been removed but focused elsewhere

[Pinkcuda]

Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of our recovery.
An "Open Mind" will also let the old ideas out. Remember the old ideas we tried to hang on to and the result was "Nil" until we let go absolutley? One of those old ideas was he idea that we could be sober and do drugs at the same time while hiding behind Tradition 3.
Is the "Sponsee" willing, honest and open minded?
Tell him to come see you when he is. That's my two cents.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by navysteve

Alcoholism and addiction are the same disease ( don't confuse this for a drug is a drug is a drug) in my honest opinion. Both are treated with the 12 steps. Both require abstinence from substances. Your man definitely sounds like he is stuck on step 1.

I hear a bunch of junk about "disease" these days. I don't think Bill and Bob ever described it as such. Dr Silkworth mentions it in the Dr's Opinion and it's brought up again in the last 4 chapters that I don't work with. Oh, and I know... "all forms of spiritual disease yadayadayada.

How about this statement?

Originally Posted by someone other than me

For some reasons, alcoholics are alone in calling their addiction a disease. I guess it makes it easier to not accept responsiblity. After all, if I have the disease of alcoholism, then it's not my fault and I'm excused if I succumb to the disease that controls my life. Sorry, alcoholism is not like, say diabetes. It's more like drug addiction because, well, it's a drug.

I don't even want to get into this debate. Disease is a doctor's term, not mine.

So I want to learn more about how labelling alcohol and drugs as being the "same disease" is correct but "a drug is a drug is a drug" isn't. I disagree with both, but I don't come here to argue. I just want to learn why you say that's different.

I'm an alky. I did/do steps and I don't want to drink booze, nor do I want to get high. That's a freaking miracle and I don't want to mess with it. I don't smoke weed and I don't raid my wife's medicine cabinet. I know she has oxy and percocet (sp? same thing?) rotting away in the cabinet. I take aspirin or advil if I'm in pain.

If I was coming from the state of having to hide it or justify it, the group could come down on me bigtime. But ultimately, I'd be back out drinking again.

I smoked weed once when I'd been sober for a while in AA, then the time came where I drank again and didn't have to worry about lying about my sobriety date. Which came first? Bauck bauck.

Originally Posted by navysteve

As matters grow worse he begins using drugs???? Sounds like drug use can be a part of our alcoholism ( even if we are alkies with a drug problem and not dually addicted as many of you are).

Bottom line, sobriety is the absence of alcohol or drugs, but what the hell do I know????

Bill W took LSD! What happened to his sobriety date after that?

Bill W was a nutcase who I'd never attempt to emulate! Oops. Did I say that out loud?

Seriously though, Dr Bob was the one who stayed spiritual and worked steps. And I doubt he had to take LSD to kick his depression. That's the guy I want to know more about.

[DaveBB164]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

Bill W was a nutcase who I'd never attempt to emulate! Oops. Did I say that out loud?

Seriously though, Dr Bob was the one who stayed spiritual and worked steps. And I doubt he had to take LSD to kick his depression. That's the guy I want to know more about.

Yep you said it out loud, lol, good point about Bills sobriety date, never thought of that before,

must admit I agree with what you said about Dr Bob, he is the guy I research the most, not that I have anything against Bill.

[navysteve]

but I don't come here to argue

It sure is coming off that way. I used the word disease simply because it is understood, alcoholism and addiction are classified as diseases. I ain't here to argue that and won't. Read my previous posts and see where I stand. Agree or don't. I don't care.

Here is my post again:

Alcoholism and addiction are the same disease ( don't confuse this for a drug is a drug is a drug) in my honest opinion. Both are treated with the 12 steps. Both require abstinence from substances.

They are the same because they are treated with the same 12 steps. They are both spiritual maladies. Both substances are a symptom of a much larger problem. And although NA's 12 steps bare little resemblance to AA's, CA has been using the Big Book of AA to help addicts recover and it has been working. The only reason I mention other fellowships here on an AA forum is to address your post.

Bill W was a nutcase who I'd never attempt to emulate! Oops. Did I say that out loud?
Seriously though, Dr Bob was the one who stayed spiritual and worked steps. And I doubt he had to take LSD to kick his depression. That's the guy I want to know more about.

I guess Iam in the nutcase category as well. I relate to Bill way more than I do Bob. I learn from Bill, who was a power driver and glory seeker ( and many other things) yet he never took that honorary degree from a prestigious school, or accepted the Man of the Year nomination. He had human flaws galore and utilized the AA program to work on them. How many of us would not get big egos if we were the co-founders of AA???? It is easy to Deify Dr Bob and vilify Bill. Bob was only with us 15 years and Bill had a whole lot of other problems besides alcohol. I don't place Bill on any pedestal but he has shown me alot ( and I never met him)

I won't debate, argue, or go tit for tat with you here. You can PM me if you want to straighten me out ( it probably won't help though)
Enjoy

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by navysteve

... Agree or don't. I don't care.

Don't. Neenerneenerneener!

Originally Posted by navysteve

... only reason I mention other fellowships here on an AA forum is to address your post.

And I appreciate that. It's good to know CAs are getting recovery and the BB works for them too.

I don't know what to do with addicts because most meetings I go to are closed AA. I'd like to know I could send them to a recovered addict. I just come from a lineage that tought me that we can't be everything to everybody.

Straighten you out?!?!?! I'm the newbie here!

I just want to know if anybody speaks AA in here!

Oh, and with respect to the OP... "we recoil from it as from a hot flame." If that's not going on for a person in recovery, do the first 10 steps and re-examine that point.