Joe and Charlie

[TTOSBT]

Hi guys.
I have heard lots of people speak of the Joe and Charlie tapes, etc.
I was wondering if anyone had a link to them or transcripts?
Also, what do you think of them?
Talk, talk, talk!

[Tommyh]

xaspeakers.org
has quite a few downloads of them.You can download them to your computer or burn CD`s of them.
Joe and Charlie do about a good a job on the program as I have heard.I believe they are good for newcomers.

http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php

try this link and type in Joe and Charlie in the search box

[RufusACanal]

Downloads & mp3's from silkworth.net

I personally find these to be a life saver; over and over!

[TTOSBT]

Thank you SO much!
I am excited to listen to them!
And I am a newcomer (DOS 5-9-08), so this will be great for me!!

[tomvlll]

I learned the program from these tapes. That' s AFTER over 2 1/2 years in the program.

And that's how I brought the program to my sponsee. We both went through tapes together.

IMHO that's the way to go with sponsees. That way, you know they know the program and you're both working from the same script.

[navysteve]

Not a huge fan of them myself. Full of lots of opinion masked as "the program" Also I have seen those tapes used as a means for people to sound off in meetings, parrotting Joe and Charlie

[tomvlll]

What are some examples of opinions masked as the the program. I know the part about the acetone is not AA, but it is identified as such.

[navysteve]

Well for one that AA once had a 75 percent recovery rate

[tomvlll]

Yeah , I'm skeptical about that stat
On the other hand, I think it's impossible to calculate any real recovery rates in AA.

Wilson put a great loophole in " How it works' has that base covered. " Rarely have we seen antybody fail who has thoroughly followed our path' .

Any failure could be attributed to not following the program. No program could be responsibel for relapse rates of those who don't follow it.

But intuitively, what would you guess the recovery rate is for those who thoroughly follow the path ?

And it is more likely or less likely that an oldtimer would have followed the path outlined in the Big Book?

[Tommyh]

one thing they did I disagree with is the false recovery rate they claim.I mean the 2% or whatever it is..

[navysteve]

One of the biggest problems I have with the Joe and Charlie series is:

Why do we need them? Why can't we study the Big Book ourselves and get our own spiritual awakening? What we get from Joe and Charlie is second hand

[paulmh]

I like Joe and Charlie. Over here in the UK they're very popular. I think sometimes people underestimate how important it is to be close to the "source" of the programme! We don't have no great great great grand sponsees of the first 100 or anything.

Anyway Steve, isn't your avatar of a, er, guide to the 12 steps?

[navysteve]

Yes it is,
It is simply a written guide and it is just an avatar. I frequently change them. I have nothing against Joe and Charlie. What I see over here in the U.S. is that more people tend to simply mimic what they say as opposed to learn anything from them. If I want to stay close to the Big Book I can open it. It is right here next to me.

[DaveBB164]

Originally Posted by navysteve

Yes it is,
It is simply a written guide and it is just an avatar. I frequently change them. I have nothing against Joe and Charlie. What I see over here in the U.S. is that more people tend to simply mimic what they say as opposed to learn anything from them. If I want to stay close to the Big Book I can open it. It is right here next to me.

I have heard hundreds of people say how fantastic the Joe and Charlie tapes are in England, very rarely do I hear anyone say they did what Joe and Charlie were trying to encourage them to do, people pay lip service to AA to the Big Book and to the program, its nice to look into the water but its too damn scary to jump in.

[DaveBB164]

We don't have no great great great grand sponsees of the first 100 or anything. Paul, Oh yes we do!

[navysteve]

We don't have no great great great grand sponsees of the first 100 or anything.

Yes we do Paul. My sponsor knew Clarence Snyder ( who was sponsored by Dr Bob). My sponsor himself is second generation AA. He got sober when the first 100 were still very much alive. What folks like Joe and Charlie do, whether intentionally or not, is romanticize those pioneers. Joe and Charlie ( and many like them) paint pictures of the first 100 as being saintly ( minus Bill W. who usually gets the role of devil amongst the Akronites). Most Big Book workshop step studies I have been to at some point begin contrasting what they call "Old School AA" to contemporary AA of today. The avatar I use is from a step study guide which simply suggests a weekly reading format and a timeline to study the steps in. It offers no opinion ( some of the questions it ask are at wors "filler questions") You can see it here:

An Unofficial Guide to the Twelve Steps, Edited by Dr. Paul O.

The idea there is to get a group of people together to work the steps, not sit around and listen to someone speak about the Big Book. I found it works well and kinda keeps people on task instead of veering off.

Dr Paul's story was in the Big Book under Dr Alcoholic Addict and the famous 449 page.

[paulmh]

I meant we don't have great great grand sponsees (or whatever degrees of separation!) in the UK -but I see that Dave's going to make a liar of me!

Joe and Charlie are almost exotic to my ears. And around where I go to AA I meet a lot of people who're seeking out a "closer to the source" type of AA which, yes, they're taking into little groups and trying to work what's suggested rather than just being passive recipients of tapes. I haven't really encountered anyone who would give Joe and Charlie any kind of authority over the BB, but they often seem to be a "route in" to the 12 steps for people where sponsorship isn't so strong - that includes parts of the North West where I live. The likes of SR has given me huge amounts of insight into AA - far more than I got from the people I met at the 20 or so meetings which I visit around my area. Joe and Charlie seem to provide a similar point of access.

I followed up your reference to Doctor Paul and I look forward to receiving the infomration!

[DaveBB164]

Originally Posted by paulmh

I meant we don't have great great grand sponsees (or whatever degrees of separation!) in the UK -but I see that Dave's going to make a liar of me!

Joe and Charlie are almost exotic to my ears. And around where I go to AA I meet a lot of people who're seeking out a "closer to the source" type of AA which, yes, they're taking into little groups and trying to work what's suggested rather than just being passive recipients of tapes. I haven't really encountered anyone who would give Joe and Charlie any kind of authority over the BB, but they often seem to be a "route in" to the 12 steps for people where sponsorship isn't so strong - that includes parts of the North West where I live. The likes of SR has given me huge amounts of insight into AA - far more than I got from the people I met at the 20 or so meetings which I visit around my area. Joe and Charlie seem to provide a similar point of access.

I followed up your reference to Doctor Paul and I look forward to receiving the infomration!

I got sober in the North West, the part where I got sober sponsorship is almost non existent, there is heavy emphasis on meeting attendance and fellowship, step four is mainly done as a life story, up there where I was the word sponsor interprets as agony Aunt, the brand of AA I encountered up there was nearly fatal for me.

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by navysteve

One of the biggest problems I have with the Joe and Charlie series is:

Why do we need them? Why can't we study the Big Book ourselves and get our own spiritual awakening? What we get from Joe and Charlie is second hand

Gotta disagree with you on this Steve. While I know of a few who have did the steps on their own, most of us needed a guide, or a sponsor.

Well, I needed a sponsor to guide me through the steps and Joe & Charlie have guided many through the steps.

My old home group was formed by a man & his wife that had been sober many years without doing the steps and were dying in AA. In 1988, someone gave them a set of the original Joe & Charlie tapes and they did the steps with Joe & Charlie. Then they started sponsoring people through the steps and group was born. That group is 200 members strong now and has helped many. It is an active, healthy AA group.

As far as agreeing with them, I don't agree with everything Bill Wilson said either. He was known to embelish the truth a bit, you know.
Jim

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by navysteve

Yes we do Paul. My sponsor knew Clarence Snyder ( who was sponsored by Dr Bob). My sponsor himself is second generation AA. He got sober when the first 100 were still very much alive. What folks like Joe and Charlie do, whether intentionally or not, is romanticize those pioneers. Joe and Charlie ( and many like them) paint pictures of the first 100 as being saintly ( minus Bill W. who usually gets the role of devil amongst the Akronites). Most Big Book workshop step studies I have been to at some point begin contrasting what they call "Old School AA" to contemporary AA of today. The avatar I use is from a step study guide which simply suggests a weekly reading format and a timeline to study the steps in. It offers no opinion ( some of the questions it ask are at wors "filler questions") You can see it here:

An Unofficial Guide to the Twelve Steps, Edited by Dr. Paul O.

The idea there is to get a group of people together to work the steps, not sit around and listen to someone speak about the Big Book. I found it works well and kinda keeps people on task instead of veering off.

Dr Paul's story was in the Big Book under Dr Alcoholic Addict and the famous 449 page.

I don't believe in "AA pedigrees," but I know where my roots are.

I was sponsored by a man named John who moved here from L.A. John was soponsored by a man named Joe who got sober in Denver and was sponsored by Don P. Don's sponsor is sponsored by a man in Chicago who got sober in 1944. His sponsor was Earl Treat ("He Sold Himself Short"), who got sober in Akron with Dr. Bob as his sponsor. Earl founded AA in Chicago and sponsored a woman, Sylvia K., whose story is "Keys To The Kingdom." Sylvia started the first intergroup in AA, in Chicago out of her home.

Don was a member of The Denver Young People's Group. At the 1975 International in Denver, a man from Toronto named Mac C. spoke about how he had got a bunch of guys together as a group and took them through the steps. The Denver people got this idea and started doing it and it spread across the country. We've been doing the workshops up here for nearly twenty years now. There is a good set of cd's Joe H., from Santa Monica taking some people through the steps in a workshop at The Salvation Army in Long Beach, CA. I believe this was recorded in 1985.
Jim

[navysteve]

I think its a big stretch comparing a sponsor to Joe and Charlie but I suppose I see your point, I still think the best way to learn about the program of AA is to pick up the Big Book and read it yourself. Use Joe and Charlie as an addition to the Book, after you have drawn your own conclusions and experienced it yourself but to each his own I guess.

[Ago]

Originally Posted by navysteve

I think its a big stretch comparing a sponsor to Joe and Charlie but I suppose I see your point, I still think the best way to learn about the program of AA is to pick up the Big Book and read it yourself. Use Joe and Charlie as an addition to the Book, after you have drawn your own conclusions and experienced it yourself but to each his own I guess.

I agree with this.

I liked how they broke down the book nearly mathematically, I never had a sponsor do that, I had worked the steps a few times by the time I heard Joe and Charley (live) and they absolutely helped me become a more effective sponsor as well as broadened my own program.

I did get a bit messed up on the "you're all doing it wrong" phase for awhile but that passed and seems to be a part of the terrible twos anyway.

Nothing worse then a young male sober alcoholic with two years that knows everything.

I got shown more doors then when I was drinking during that phase.

I mean you know it's bad when you call friends after a few years of sobriety and say "I drank" and they respond with "Thank God!!!" (The same people also said thank God when I got sober again btw)

Anyhow, I got over it and still remember those seminars fondly and still use some Joe and Charlie going over the steps to this day.

This last time I went through the steps, my sponsor was part of the "anti Joe and Charlie" back in the day, so we went through the steps, we talked about what he knew, his experience etc, and I shared what I knew, what I learned from Joe and Charlie, and we'd both talk about what we learned from our Grandsponsor who had gotten sober when the first 100 were around...he was hardcore.

Personally I think his experience was from being sober 50 years, not because he was "touched" by the magic of the first 100, but his insights into things like The Traditions and how H and I got started I've never heard elsewhere and much of it was based on personal experience.

I feel very honored to have had my ear grabbed and dragged out of the meeting so many times by this man and had to endure yet another one of his screaming @ss chews, it gives me warm fuzzies just thinking about it.

The thing is, that's the truth, most of what he imparted to me took me a good ten years to understand, and by then he was dead. To this day I don't know what he saw in me to take that time, I never heard of him or saw him do that to anyone else.

I'd like to think I was uniquely stupid enough to warrant his attention, but a few years listening to relapsers and terminal newcomers cured me of that particular conceit.

We got to be pretty good friends after I had a few years of sobriety, the funny thing is he was the most loving man I have ever met, took me some years to get to that part though.

Anyhow I like J and C but I find myself dozing during some of their stuff now (on tape)

[jimhere]

Hey Andrew,

I've been through the "terrible twos." I think we all do. I kind of watch for it to happen with the guys I work with. Sometimes it's way before two years.

Usually it starts with "I was at this meeting and so-and-so said this and I thought it was just bullshit...."

I just smile.

[AW2486]

I like how Joe & Charlie explain the history of how this all evolved. I didn't know any of that until I listened to them. I listened to a recording of Bill W and the history of the Big Book. He made it sound like it was its most important role was to make money for bigger and better things. Not so much what it offered.

The BB study I attend, we use 3 different sets. J & C that cover the history and their take, Roger and Dennis a couple of guys from MN that read every word and give their take, and I try to find a new set each year for the 3rd. Each set takes 4 months, so it doesn't get stale.

Andy

[Ago]

If you can get past the BS and into the meat our history is actually pretty fun, it's like world history but with alcoholics (add in it was before the traditions and woo hoo)

I mean Hospitals and Institutions started with a fist fight in the parking lot of San Quentin, guys from New York flew out and tried to stop some Marin guys from bringing a meeting into the Prison at the request of the warden and it turned into a brawl.

H and I is the second oldest AA service entity after GSR now.

The first female and was it alkie #5 I think were caught fornicating on DR Bob's examination table, so there was talk of banning women after that for awhile.

SO when anyone says how much better or worse AA was back in the good old days, that's like romanticizing our drinking careers, just not accurate.

AA is a lot like I am, in that it made every mistake known to man and even invented a few mistakes no one ever heard of, but seems to be doing OK today.

Navy Steve points that out a lot, that it's actually more impressive these guys had such checkered pasts (and presents) and still came up with such a beautiful deal.

It's not that they were such great guys and saints, it's they were human and frail and still came up with this that's impressive.

For me, anytime someone says "the good old days" what I hear is "I am going to rewrite history through my rose colored glasses now" kind of like anytime I hear "it's just business" that means "I am going to steal from you now" and i feel it's especially moronic for someone to talk about the good old days that wasn't even there.....