Religion and AA

[jjaaam]

I'm sure this will set off a firestorm, but it's really buggin' me so I have to ask and get it off my chest.

First off, I understand AA's position on religion. It is not a religious organization, but it does have it's spiritual side.

OK...here's my issue...

I do believe in a higher power, and to me my higher power is God. I believe in God. I always have; I just did not act like it most of the time! In the last year I have been getting much more involved with my church and my spirituality is growing day by day.

It just seems to me that by AA "allowing" people to have a "God of their understanding" that this is a blatant excuse to not acknowledge God's existance.

I was at a meeting the other day and some guy (with a fair amount of sobriety) was saying something to the effect of:

"I don't know about God being a "he" or a "she" or an "it" or whatever...but I know that my higher power is the AA fellowship and I am grateful for what they have done for me".

I understand that others do not believe in God, and unfortunately that is their choice. I am not trying to push my beliefs on them.

BUT - I can't hide that fact that I feel that God is the only reason that these people are "saved" from alcoholism, and they refuse to acknowledge that.

The problem is that the whole issue is making me not to want to go to meetings. I am having a very hard time with it. It seems to me that if I continue to go then I am basically condoning what I feel to be incorrect perceptions about God by others. A meeting is no place to bring up that kind of debate.

Don't get me wrong, I am not judging (at least I don't THINK that I am), but I don't know what to do.

My wife would freak out if I said I was quitting AA. I really do enjoy a majority of the sharing that goes on, and I will say that I really can't get that anywhere else. But this issue is making me think more and more about just getting even more involved in church and leaving AA altogether.

This post isn't a slam, but more like a call for help. Has anyone else ever felt this way? How did you handle it?

Jerry

[Tommyh]

Jerry
I understand where you are coming from.Your religion is getting into your AA.
I separate it,as best I can.I go to AA for sobriety,fellowship, and service.I go to Church for the other reasons.
When we are in Church,we come united under one God.When we go to AA,we are sitting with believers,atheists,and agnostics.

When we come to AA,I really believe we are seeking God,as best anyone of us can understand him,whether we admit or even know it or not.In AA, many are honest and realize we know only a little about God,and the facts are none of us knows if God is a he,she,or it.Many AA`s here say God is higher than that,and if we label God,we are bringing God down on our level.In Church God is labeled as a He.

In AA,page 55 says "deep down inside of us is the fundamental idea of God."
I believe that.So,when we come together,there really is a force from all of us coming together as a group.I call that the power of the group.I understand where the old timer comes from.I believe he is saying he don`t label God,and that the force coming from the group is a expression of God.

Remember you are a alcoholic,not a normal drinker or non drinker like the Church folks are.
Keep coming back and I believe as you grow and try and keep the two separated,it will pass.

[findingout]

Hopefully, no firestorms but just discussion?

I believe that it is A.A's "allowing" each of us the freedom to embrace a God of our understanding that makes it possible for those of different faiths to sit at a table on a Wednesday night and share their experience, strength and hope with each other in order to overcome their common problem. I see that as genius, not as an excuse to deny the existence of a higher power.

I came into the program with no faith at all and for me the group and the program was my higher at first. My understanding has changed as I continued my way down the path. The deepening of that understanding is part of the work I do in recovery. If I had sat down at my first couple of meetings and been preached at, told exactly what my higher power had to be, I would not have stayed long enough to find a higher power at all.

I can believe that God is directly responsible for every single recovery from alcoholism but I had to come to that belief in my own time. If God had the patience to let me do that, I shouldn't complain if he does the same with others.

[AW2486]

If I am worried about what other people use as a higher power to keep their drink obsession away.. If I think they are using an improper GOD, Then I am playing GOD.

"God as we understand him" has saved the day for so many alcoholics, me included. At my first meeting if I felt like I was going to church, I would have bolted and never came back.

[geekorunique]

I get where you're coming from. I believe in God and was the same as you and just didn't acknowledge it or live in a way that I felt was acceptable. I don't get how people can believe in a Higher Power and it not be God? Thing is though a fellow group member has seven years sobriety and doesn't believe in God. It works for her.

Don't let it affect you going to your meetings. I know someone who was an atheist for 47 years and eventually found God.

My suggestion....pray for these people....and pray for the resentment to be removed from you. Remember that with our God....everything is possible!

Love and hugs sent your way :-)

[paulmh]

Hi Jerry

AA is a big tent. Witness, as you know - "AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes." AA encouraged me to be more humble about my own beliefs and to carry them in better proportion. It encourages me to have a relationship with my Higher Power not so that I can become "right", but so that I can become more aware of my place in the universe, and act and behave accordingly - with some humility, some tolerance, some gratitude, some compassion. It is through a relationship with this Higher Power that I become able to practice these things, precisely because I develop a better sense of persective. This perspective is part of the antidote to my chronic self-centredness which is at the root of my problems.

If I arrive at the conclusion that other people should have the same HP as me then I'm losing that perspective once again. It is in the reality of my relationship with a Higher Power - be that the G*d of the OT, the NT, or of a "group of drunks" - that I find my perspective, and in turn am able to use those spiritual practices which AA teaches me will help me to maintain that perpective. It is in complacency and laziness that I begin to believe that being right is an adequate substitute for acting right - and I've got that tee shirt in a variety of different sizes and colours..

It's a big tent, it's there to help people recover from alcoholism, not to convert them to a particular brand of religion. In fact it explicitly and repeatedly explains, and ultimately makes quite plain in tradition 3 and tradition 5, that we are there to help the still suffering alcoholic - and anything which works against us being effective in that should be avoided.

Best to you.

[DaveBB164]

Originally Posted by jjaaam

I'm sure this will set off a firestorm, but it's really buggin' me so I have to ask and get it off my chest.

First off, I understandAA's position on religion. It is not a religious organization, but it does have it's spiritual side.

OK...here's my issue...

I do believe in a higher power, and to me my higher power is God. I believe in God. I always have; I just did not act like it most of the time! In the last year I have been getting much more involved with my church and my spirituality is growing day by day.

It just seems to me that by AA "allowing" people to have a "God of their understanding" that this is a blatant excuse to not acknowledge God's existance.

I was at a meeting the other day and some guy (with a fair amount of sobriety) was saying something to the effect of:

"I don't know about God being a "he" or a "she" or an "it" or whatever...but I know that my higher power is the AA fellowship and I am grateful for what they have done for me".

I understand that others do not believe in God, and unfortunately that is their choice. I am not trying to push my beliefs on them.

BUT - I can't hide that fact that I feel that God is the only reason that these people are "saved" from alcoholism, and they refuse to acknowledge that.

The problem is that the whole issue is making me not to want to go to meetings. I am having a very hard time with it. It seems to me that if I continue to go then I am basically condoning what I feel to be incorrect perceptions about God by others. A meeting is no place to bring up that kind of debate.

Don't get me wrong, I am not judging (at least I don't THINK that I am), but I don't know what to do.

My wife would freak out if I said I was quitting AA. I really do enjoy a majority of the sharing that goes on, and I will say that I really can't get that anywhere else. But this issue is making me think more and more about just getting even more involved in church and leaving AA altogether.

This post isn't a slam, but more like a call for help. Has anyone else ever felt this way? How did you handle it?

Jerry

Hi There,

If people are sharing what they came to believe in meetings they are directly violating Tradition 10,

the fact is in meetings as it is in the Big Book we should only share how we came to believe and not what we came to believe in,

the God of your understanding, is God as we understood him, originated in The Oxford Group, they used to say surrender as much of yourself as you understand to as much of God as you understand,

an atheist called Jim insisted on God as we understood him being used in the Big Book,

if you check out your AA history the pioneers of this program had absolutely no doubt where the power of God was and who it was,

most of the program can be found in 1Corinthians 13 and Mathew 6,

AA was born out of first century Christianity,

the thing is you can't play God here because you can no more tell people what to believe in than you can tell them what football team to support,

you can't change people to meet conditions you can only change yourself to meet conditions.

Dave

[navysteve]

It just seems to me that by AA "allowing" people to have a "God of their understanding" that this is a blatant excuse to not acknowledge God's existance.

Its the only way I could have found a God. I do not believe Jesus was anything more than the greatest prophet ever to walk on earth. No small feat, since we have been graced by many amazing humans who were touched by God. I do not believe in walking on water or rising from the dead. Can you point me to a christian church that teaches that I don't have to believe in those things and still be a christian?

BUT - I can't hide that fact that I feel that God is the only reason that these people are "saved" from alcoholism, and they refuse to acknowledge that.

I acknowledge that every single day. Everything I have is because of Him.

The problem is that the whole issue is making me not to want to go to meetings. I am having a very hard time with it. It seems to me that if I continue to go then I am basically condoning what I feel to be incorrect perceptions about God by others. A meeting is no place to bring up that kind of debate.

If I believe that AA is a spiritual program ( which I do) and it is inspired by God ( which I believe that it is) and God delievered me into the hands of AA ( which he did) then I have an obligation to be there to carry the message that was carried to me. My Big Book speaks of God very frequently. It tells me to never apologize for Him, and to speak about my spiritual experience freely. The reason AA works is because there is no Orthodoxy.

It works-it really does

[jimhere]

In and of themselves, The Twelve Steps are a spiritual path. They encompass all other paths and are compatible with any of the great religious traditions. Yet they are none of those paths.

For myself, after much investigation, I do not have to look elsewhere. The steps are in and of themselves sufficient and contain all I need. I've been walking this path for eighteen years now and have barely scratched the surface. There is enough contained in pages 84-88 of the book to keep me busy and excited and on my toes for the rest of my life.
Jim

[Emimily]

"The problem is that the whole issue is making me not to want to go to meetings. I am having a very hard time with it. It seems to me that if I continue to go then I am basically condoning what I feel to be incorrect perceptions about God by others. A meeting is no place to bring up that kind of debate."

I'm pretty sure God's big enough to handle every single perception of every single human being on the face of this planet. That's sort of how omnipotence works. Remember what the literature says about being OPEN-MINDED... especially that quote at the end of the appendix about Spiritual Experiences - "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is a proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." -Herbert Spencer

[Ago]

For me, that's one of the single most powerful things about AA is My God is none of your business, and yours is none of mine.

When I look for the similarities, not the differences I find we are all saying the same thing anyway.

AA is all inclusive, never exclusive

Personally I believe there are "many paths up the mountain" and to think my way is the only way would be self centered in the extreme

The Carpenter hisself said something along those lines in Corinthians 3:2

I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

Who is to say what "meat" is, personally I believe allowing others their own beliefs is the height of spirituality, and to allow others "milk" before they get to "the meat"...I mean, hey, if it was good enough for Jesus, it oughtta be good enough for me right?

So Live and Let Live is my motto, one I learned in AA

[RufusACanal]

I am a proponent of "For me, God either is or is not". God is for me and I am for him. Notice the word "us" does not appear in this personal anthem. When I write, which I love to do, I try to write my most honest thoughts to best convey my thinking as I communicate with my peers; I would hope that as I grow in this New Life I am not mistaking my position as a means to assume responsibility for others by speaking for them and the same holds true for God.

I am not on earth to provide salvation to other human beings. I am on earth to live free and provide service in those areas I have been gifted to serve. I am the Employee, he is the Employer; I'll let the Employer make the decisions for other’s thinking, performance and position. It is all above my pay grade.

"When I look for the similarities, not the differences I find we are all saying the same thing."

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Isn't it better if, our actions speak for us.

If, we are of a belief in God and we go forth and carry out the message in our actions, people will want what we have.

[fulminouscherub]

Like most theists, I'm very selective about the gods in which I choose to disbelieve. It would take a very spiritual person indeed to believe in every god.

But the ONE god I DO take special pains to disbelieve is YOUR god. He has no place whatsoever in MY program of recovery.

[DaveBB164]

Originally Posted by Ago

AA is all inclusive, never exclusive

I agree with most of what you said except the AA is all inclusive bit although I see what context you are using it in,

our Traditions say AA is not all inclusive,

Tradition 3 the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking

Tradition 5 an AA group is for alcoholics,

Our Preamble "help other alcoholics achieve sobriety"

Singleness of Purpose as well,

not being pedantic just thought it was an interesting point.

Dave

[PaperDolls]

AA is all inclusive, never exclusive

Thank GOD, as I understand her, for that!


-----
If I hadn't decided to go into AA with an open mind, I would have been scared off by a religious, belief in GOD requirement. All I wanted to do was quit drinking. Turns out I get to learn so much more about myself and possibly even find my own path to spirituality.

I fit in at AA no matter what my HP is. Finally, I fit in somewhere.

Great thread! Thanks.

[Ago]

Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him.

To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men.

There is the quote in context, just to clarify

BB 1st edition et al

[gravity]

My perspective is that AA is a spiritual program of recovery with a strong Christian influence (locally anyway).

My uncle, a Native Canadian Elder, told me to always show respect for the beliefs of others regardless of my own personal opinions. This wisdom has served me well.

Of course, I have my own opinions about religion, agnosticism, and atheism but AA (and SR for that matter) is not where I express these opinions.

I can honestly say that I do believe in a power greater than myself and I am trying to follow a spiritual path. However, if AA was limited to Christianity and studying the Bible, I suppose I would not be welcome nor would I want to attend. If that were the case, I would respect it for what it is and find a different way to recover.

[PaperDolls]

Originally Posted by Ago

There is the quote in context, just to clarify

BB 1st edition et al

Something different stands out to me here.....

Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men.

[sugErspun]

I don't see any basis for argument in the original post...but these subjects do tend to stir the pot.

Anyhow - anytime I think I know what God is, and what someone else should see as their higher power - I need to take a look at ME, why do "I" feel threatened or otherwise disturbed by someone elses belief's...this seems to be in direct contrast to the notion of god, higher power..whatever one wants to call it. I feel the experience with such a power is not best described in words - rather in action and attitude.

Paul wrote :"AA encouraged me to be more humble about my own beliefs and to carry them in better proportion" - brilliant! Could not possibly say it better myself.


As far as religion goes - I am not a member of any organized religion, I do not attend church services on a regular basis...but I have always been a bit of a seeker.

In that seeking, I have found that all of these religions are pretty much saying the same thing...I was always lost in the words, traditions and opinions of 'experts' on the matter.

[Tazman53]

AA & the vast majority if not all of the major faiths in thier scripture teach Love, acceptance, & tolerance.

Christ did not isolate himself from those who did not beleive as he did, instead he went amoung them.

Mohammed (SP) allowed cities that had surrendered to Muslim forces to continue to practice thier own faiths.

I will not share in this thread my belief in my HP except to say that my understanding of him is not the only one he understands.

jjaaam have you prayed and meditated on this with an open mind? Seek and ye shall find.

[paulmh]

Maybe if we stop discoverin' we've stopped recoverin'.

[laurie6781]

My uncle, a Native Canadian Elder, told me to always show respect for the beliefs of others regardless of my own personal opinions. This wisdom has served me well.

Jjaaam I too went through something similiar in my early recovery, only in reverse, I was getting antsy and upset because in my mind too many people were bringing "their religion" into AA meetings. Seemed to run across a lot of "Bible Thumpers" in meetings in Southern California back then. lol

But I got past it, for AA was how I was staying sober and learning how to LIVE sober. I quoted Gravity above, because I heard this also from the "Elders" when I finally took my Native American heritage out of the closet.

I started to look at it this way. When I go to a meeting, and someonne is their doing or saying something that seems to be 'rubbing' me the wrong way ..................................well then one more time MY HP is giving me a lesson in PATIENCE and TOLERANCE. What better place to practice that than at an AA meeting, so I can take it out into the BIG WIDE WORLD and continue to be patient and tolerant?

My first year in recovery I would have really gotten your 'goat' rofl .......................... my HP was a Harley Davidson Motorcycle. Yes, it's funny to me now, but you know what? It worked, it kept me 'coming back'. It kept me from drinking and it kept me wanting to learn more until I could discover or rediscover the HP of my understanding.

It took me time to come to the conclusions I have come to, ie everyone of us has an HP of our own understanding and it may not be mine. Every one of us has an opinion and it may not agree with mine, and everyone of us who works the steps may not work them exactly the same, and ALL of that is alright by me today.

I am very glad that you felt comfortable enough here to share these feelings here Jjaaam! That is growth. I believe that most of us upon arriving in AA go through various phases in recovery, one of the hardest for me was to learn how to see the gray areas that life was not all black and white.

Jjaaam, if you can continue to incorporate into your daily living the HOW Honesty, Openmindedness, and Willingness, of the program and add Patiece, Acceptance and Tolerance you will see that it will not matter what someone else says about their HP, yours is in your heart.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

[jjaaam]

Thanks to all for the replies.

Believe me, I am not trying to stir things up or say that "my God" is better than "your God". I am not trying to judge.

I feel that I am just trying to follow a basic tenet of Christianity, which is acceptance of Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

That being said, the whole point is that it is just hard for me to hear others say that there is no God, and that AA is the ONLY thing that has allowed them to recover.

Call me closed-minded if you will...but that certainly is not my intent.

And yes...I really do believe that religion for religion's sake is just a set of man-made rules determined by someone else's interpretation of the Bible.

I'm sorry...I feel like I am talking in circles. Obviously what others do and choose to believe is THEIR choice - and they have every right to that. I am definitely in no position to say anyone is wrong.

Maybe I should leave well enough alone. My main purpose for the original post was to see if anyone else out there has ever had the same issues, and try to find out how they dealt with it - not to come across as damning or condemning.

My apologies to anyone that I may have offended.

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Originally Posted by jjaaam

I feel that I am just trying to follow a basic tenet of Christianity, which is acceptance of Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

Matthew 22:14