SR is a bit of a challenge to serenity these days!

[paulmh]

Is it just me or is SR a bit toxic at the moment?

I took a bit of a haitus over Christmas and into February, since I've been coming back more regularly it seems like there are lots and lots and LOTS of opportunities to practice my tolerance and acceptance! In fact, maybe a few too many - given how worn my tolerance and acceptance feels! And I notice that many of the old 12 step people hardly ever post anymore too - I wonder if that's just part of the natural cycle of things, or if their T & A is a bit strained also!

Previously I'd never had need to put anyone on "Ignore", but currently I have two people there, people who just never seem to be able to pass up a conversation about 12 step recovery without putting in their two cents. I suppose that's the nature of "conversations" in cyber space - everyone passing by is free to make a contribution! (And that's only as it should be!). But I still don't like doing it - but at the same time, if I have to read them over and over and over again, I end up feeling like I don't want to be here.

Which I suppose is making me ask myself a question about 12 stepping. When I go on a 12 step call it's because someone has phoned our office, who in turn phone me and I go out. There has been a tacit invitation from someone who wants to find out more about AA. On the other hand, hospital work involves 12 stepping someone who can't get away (lol) and who might not have asked for us! Lots of PI work is with groups and organisations who could potentially refer still suffering alcoholics, same with HL. Prison work I don't know about. Regardless, we have various ways of connecting with still suffering alcoholics who want to find out more about what happened to us.

What I'm getting at is this. Many people who come to SR aren't looking for AA. They're looking for solutions to their alcohol problem. Many, if not most, are not yet at the stage where they are sufficiently desperate to be asking for AA's number. They haven't tried all other avenues. Hell, didn't most of us try everything else first too? Didn't we have to try everything else?

So. We have a responsibility to share our ESH with the still suffering alcoholic - and to take whatever **** they choose to throw at us in return. Because we too are here under sufferance. We might know that many of us have far more experience of both alcoholism and of recovery. But that doesn't mean in any way that we have any additional entitlement. One day at a time, and anonymously.

And equally we need to be aware of the fact that many people - problem drinkers or alcoholics - successfully get off the train before the second to last stop that is AA. We're only responsible for what we give back to people, not for what they give us. And if they're sober for twenty years and they hate AA - that's their prerogative.

I'm going to try to just ignore all of the AA bashing that's going on here just now - not out of some saintly sense of transcendence, but just because if people need to feel like that, they need to feel like that. Taking it on is just going to make me, and possibly them, feel more entrenched. But while I have every possible belief in our primary purpose, it doesn't mean that every alcoholic wants to hear it.

Thanks everyone for the insight and comprehension and example you bring to SR.

[stone]

Good post Paul.

I wonder if there is something of a back-lash going on? I remember not long ago the "alcoholism" forum had become a de facto AA forum, newcomers often started their first post with "I do not want AA", presumably because they saw how many people were constantly suggesting it. Some people used to suggest it even when asked not to.

Threads in the 12 step forum used to be closed more often than anywhere else and that was even without anti-AA people joining in, it was just through AA members squabbling amongst themselves. People reading those threads must have been turned off AA. These things don't happen so much now.

It seems now if someone posts about AA in the "newcomers" forum it will always turn into a fight. It is getting a bit wearing. I just use the smiley and guess how long it will take to be closed.
I hope things calm down soon.

[tommyk]

I too have some people on block, it works well.

I have discovered that some people act exactly the way I used to act - criticizing everything outright.

Now I share my ES&H with little regard for who criticize. If they criticize continually, I realize they are on a journey in a place similar to where I used to be, nothing was going to get through, and I block them. I am not here as much to DEBATE what worked/works for me, but rather I am here to share what worked/works for me.

What I share worked/works for me, but it might not work for others.

Keep coming back.

[CAPTAINZING2000]

I'd have to ask myself, if I can let someone's words on this site affect me, how well is my program working.


I do get annoyed at someone coming on the 12 step pages that, want to bash AA, much like I do an ant at a picnic.

[navysteve]

I know what you mean Paul. I for one am not above peoples words affecting me. To make such a claim is not realistic, people continue to rub me the wrong way, I am after all, human.

You and I have talked off-line about this very subject. All I can say is that we have a responsibility to carry the message. I know I straddle the line between debating and simply keeping the message out there for all to see but from that I have had new people PM me asking for guidance and ESH on various topics related to recovery.

[historyteach]

I've found that when I post once or twice on a thread,
then I"m sharing my ESH.
If I post more than that,
I'm trying to control the outcome of that thread,
or of one or more of the posters.
And that is *not* a good picture of recovery.

Great post, Paul!

Shalom!

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Originally Posted by historyteach

I've found that when I post once or twice on a thread,
then I"m sharing my ESH.
If I post more than that,
I'm trying to control the outcome of that thread,
or of one or more of the posters.
And that is *not* a good picture of recovery.

Great post, Paul!

Shalom!

Or, bored at work

[Tazman53]

SR has given me a thick skin and an insight into how I used to be, how AA or any type of any orginaization was a bad thing. I see some of these post and just shake my head, not at them per say, but at how I used to be. I used to think I needed help with nothing in life and that those who did were weak miserable beings that deserved to feel my wrath as I constantly reminded them of just how smart I was and how well my way worked!!! LOL

I have to say I am very thankful that I was sober and beginning to work on my recovery when I first came here, because I would have been right there with the AA bashers telling all those sorry sober AA folks just how weak they were & pulling eveything I could out of an arsenal of ignorance, hatred and intolerance.

You know one thing that really makes me cringe today is the intolerance of some folks in AA here..... but you know that is okay, because I see them seeing it them selfs and making amends as they go along.

I share my ES&H, I get my drawers wrapped around the axle on occasion, but I keep trying to do better, to just accept that some are going to bash AA and some in AA are going to be intolerant.

Take what I want from the shares and leave the rest.

Who knows, my ES&H may help some one, it may not, but I have found that the ES&H of many here have helped me, both in and outside of AA.

[Sheryl85]

Bill W. wrote the following statement in a Grapevine article in 1961:
“Faith is more than our greatest gift; its sharing with others is our greatest responsibility. May we of A.A. continually seek the wisdom and the willingness by which we may well fulfill that immense trust which the Giver of all perfect gifts has placed in our hands.”

I find it sad that the people we are refering to do not want any part of the gift that we in A.A. have been fortunate to receive. However, when that happens and I start to get annoyed with their postings, I try to think of Bill’s words. (More often than naught I’m reminded instead of the Herbert Spenser quote instead.)

[bob_sapp]

Listening to people who don't have what I want is a waste of my recovery. Just because someone says something on the internet doesn't make it true. There is a lot of lies and misinformation on the internet, and because of the speed of technology and the number of people, a mob mentality develops and everything from disinformation to misinformation to outright lies are perpetuated. There is no "truth" or "authority" on the internet anymore, just millions of opinions that are inherently "equally valid" because of our post-modern culture. If you want serenity, look to god as you understand him, don't look to the internet, media, academia, etc.

[CAPTAINZING2000]

the net can be used as a great tool as well.

Wonderful resources at your disposal.

All depends on which wolf I want to feed today

[CarolD]

Hmm..
SR is ever changeing and growing...thanks to y'all...our members.


It's important to me to remember how many
unknown guests read SR.

Am I carrying the message of recovery or of dissention?

[Sheryl85]

I try to remember to use my powers only for good!

[Dee74]

When I first came here I was an angry young man - I railed against certain posters and certain attitudes here...

I learnt, in time, that there were more important things going on than what I was feeling, or whatever pointscoring I thought I needed to make.

I'm here to help.

If I'm routinely doing anything other than that, then maybe I'm in the wrong place.
D

[DaveBB164]

the overbearing self righteous AA bashing type just make themselves look ridiculous amongst a group of people talking about and living THE solution, tey just put themselves on display as narrow minded and ignorant people

[RufusACanal]

Paul,

I am more than grateful for your post. Your experience, strength and hope, your sobriety is something I can hang my hat on today. I must wait before responding and gauge the significance of my thoughts; are they helpful, are they true, are they worthwhile. Thank you for this insight and I look forward to hearing more of your New Life.

Ron

[trucker]

A interesting post Paul and Ive thought about this today..

Ive read through the whole thread...and i think there are some good points made here....for me anyway..

Dee's post made me think about when i first come here..which weren't that long ago.

up till then id never had experience of a large recovery site....in fact no recovery site..the people i discuss recovery with are already in AA or my sponsor.

I need to get used to the fact that not everyone wants to listen and some people here have bad experiences in aa..... i have rarely come across till Sr. ..........whether they made it or not they were in the rooms and WANTED to listen.

On the flip side i have to remember that i am human and people will continue to rub me up the wrong way........thanks Steve

But yeah its my responsibility to remain level headed.....passion is one thing.
losing the message through frustration is another...

And i have a responsibilty..like it or not to the newcomers and as carol says unknown guests......
The message gets lost in a mire of tit for tat........helping no one.

Coming to Sr is very different from going to a AA meeting.
I think I'm very open minded.......others are not.........and that ain't my problem.

Attraction rather than promotion is a fine line sometimes...hopefully by sharing how i found freedom i can attract newcomers to AA.

Getting embroiled in "my program is better than your program" only detracts me from what I'm supposed to be doing..

When i log on here i need to say to myself "right what am i here for" i also need to understand what I'm not here for.

This is not directed at anyone...........just me..............

[BP44]

I've found myself pull away from the debate more and more. It is always a futile effort. I am not here to convince or debate. What I do is line my experience up with what is being put before me. See, I know my truth. Now the only time I will do this is when someone has shared experience. I don't when someone shares an opinion based on an experience they've never had, or worse some abstract study they found somewhere on "The Internets" for God's sake. I just isn't worth the effort. My grandsponsor taught me a powerful lesson. Earlier in his recovery he was dismayed when he was watching TV and lo and behold Jim & Tammy Faye Baker had fleeced the flock. His anger swelled up as he was watching them whine and moan on the television and Tammy Faye's mascara melting down her face. It came to him in prayer and meditation that it was insane that these two had so much power over him to upset him so much. And he wasn't even in their presence, they were on TV hundreds of miles away. The answer that came was, "It's all entertainment". Nobody said it had to be quality entertainment. Sometimes it's just bad quality entertainment. It's all entertainment nontheless. It is this type of peace and serenity that allows him today to stand in the bank line behind a little old lady counting pennies and not have a bother in the world. That's what I want.

[RufusACanal]

I do have a small expectation that the majority of folks posting in this forum are members of AA and working somewhere in the Twelve Steps as outlined by the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. I do not expect to be flamed for my spiritual views in this forum, though I know from the nature of this medium, this may happen. One of the members here made a comment roughly a year ago about how debate spurs thought and thought spurs action. I believe that the fellowship here does that for me. I have more valid and worthwhile thoughts from a variety of sources than every before. Do I like it when I have been ambushed, no, but then again I am guilty of ambushing others myself. Do I get my guts in a knot at times, yes, but always because of my own thoughts and actions.

We come together because of our common cause and our common solution. I have several on IGNORE as well, hopefully I can check in someday and take them off.

Alcoholism, cunning, baffling, powerful; Alcoholics are no less.

[Astro]

Originally Posted by trucker

Coming to Sr is very different from going to a AA meeting.
I think I'm very open minded.......others are not.........and that ain't my problem.

Attraction rather than promotion is a fine line sometimes...hopefully by sharing how i found freedom i can attract newcomers to AA.

I'm not much of a deep thinker when it comes to 12-Step and AA wisdom and material, I prefer to keep it as simple as possible, what's left of my pickled brain can't handle much more.

I actually feel like SR is very similar to a meeting in some ways, it's a way for me to share my ES&H and to read and digest what others have to share. I take what I want, and leave the rest lying on the floor, just like I do at the nightly meetings I attend. My choice is to be as quiet, humble, and peaceful as possible, when something bothers me it's probably a red flag for me to take a look at myself and the program that I'm practicing. Sometimes that means walking away and finding a place of serenity again, rather than being confrontational.

Thanks for this post Paul, it'll give me a few things to think about when I post a reply in the future.

[Pinkcuda]

Shouldn't there be some concern for the newcomer? Someone may be wondering if AA is the right place for them. It may very vell be what they need.
Then they come here and read of stories of those who feel uncomfortable in AA because of the vermin, the letches, the 13th steppers. The religion being shoved down their throats, the surrender involved and some imaginary success percentage. They hear more about how AA and 12 steps don't work for some. They read about the fear of groups, the controlling sponsors and AA members getting them drunk.
Is there anything I forgot to mention?
What is that going to do for someone that may find the only answer for them in AA? It's probably going to keep them from setting foot in an AA meeting out of fear. AA might be te exact thing that they may need but they won't go because of someones obsession with posting about what's wrong with AA and how AA doesn't work.

[lizw]

Something that has been on my mind lately and I haven't a clue where I heard it.

'Angry people are just that: angry people. They are not angry because of what you or me (even though they may think they are) they're just angry because they're angry.'

I haven't been at SR long but I was told the same arguments happen again and again but just take on different faces/screen names and from what I've seen this is true.

It doesn't particulary bother me that people come on here and bash AA. People have been bashing AA since it started. It's just that the internet now lets it happen in digital form. Those utube videos on 12 steppers are pretty funny to, if you haven't seem them yet.

The other thing I am reminded about is that there is people who come on here, that are still drinking and are unhappy but don't even know it. They don't even know they are unhappy. It's called denial. Hence some of the ugly reactions.

It reminds me of this story a woman told in a meeting once - she'd just got off public transport and lying in the gutter across the road was one of my towns known drunks. Everyone in AA knew him and the police etc....
So she rushes over, thinking he is hurt and crouches down, rolls him on to his back and sees he's bleeding from a big cut in his head and reeks of booze.
She says, 'My god. Are you okay? I should get you to the hospital'
He sits up shakes her off and says, 'I'm fckn wonderful. What's your god dam problem? Just leave me alone!'

We never know what others are doing or feeling when they post despite what they say and we never know how many other people are not posting but reading.

I'm saying this tounge in cheek too but just because someone is lying in the gutter covered in blood, drunk doesn't mean there is something wrong now, does it?

[trucker]

Originally Posted by Astro

I'm not much of a deep thinker when it comes to 12-Step and AA wisdom and material, I prefer to keep it as simple as possible, what's left of my pickled brain can't handle much more.

I actually feel like SR is very similar to a meeting in some ways, it's a way for me to share my ES&H and to read and digest what others have to share. I take what I want, and leave the rest lying on the floor, just like I do at the nightly meetings I attend. My choice is to be as quiet, humble, and peaceful as possible, when something bothers me it's probably a red flag for me to take a look at myself and the program that I'm practicing. Sometimes that means walking away and finding a place of serenity again, rather than being confrontational.

Thanks for this post Paul, it'll give me a few things to think about when I post a reply in the future.

I see you point.......but i think for me anyhow that sometimes because it is only written text here ..

i miss the facial expressions and context of how the post is suppose to be read....

for example if some says something to me tougue in cheek in a f2f meeting i can read it....through facial expressions...etc.

On here you dont have that and it can easily mean something different to what was intended...

Misunderstood posts are quiet common and care needs to be taken how its read........im saying that to myself.

And maybe it highlights my inexperience with forums on the net.

Bottom line is if the newcomers grasps some hope here.....i feel ive weve done some good.....

trucker

[IO Storm]

As far as I can see it..

Anyone who posts in Alcoholism 12 Step Support and bashes AA is coming close to

flaming by not respecting the members who come here for support.

Breaking a forum rule. This is not intolerance. There are other forums for those

who "don't want AA". Seekers can ask questions, give and take in conversations,

whatever. But we must have mutual respect for one another.

On both sides.

[Tazman53]

You know I know several people right here in this forum today who are AA, who I recall actually bashing or poo pooing AA at one time, but enough of the light of AA shined through enough of the AA posters here, that combined with the darkness & hopelessness of thier alcoholism they found their way to AA.

These people are powerful people in thier message they carry of thier ES&H to newcomers today that are bashing or poo pooing AA because you see they have been there and done that. Unlike me who was already in the program when I came to SR, they were not, they can share thier walk form the darkness to the light they found in AA.