Tradition two

[jada311]

" For our groups purpose ther is but one ultimate authority- A lovin GOD as he may express himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted sevants, they do not govern." ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS TWELVE TRADITIONS (LONG FORM)

Tradition one affirms that without out the group the individual dies and vice versa. Thus being the foundation of the remaining TWELVE TRADITIONS. Tradition 2 reasserts the fact that I am a small part of the whole. Although my insight is an important piece of the group conscience.


Last year an AA friend and I decided to start a group in our area. We had many ideas of how it should be run. After all we were in charge weren't we. In the beginning this was true. This man and myself secured the meeting hall, covered the insurance filed with GSO through our local area officers and announced our meeting. As the Group grew so did the members. The group conscience was born. What i thought was right for the group wasn't always so when laid before all the members. Things changed, votes took place Officers elected, commitments delegated. What started as a Two man deal had blossomed into a group. Had I not had a mild knowledge of this tradition it may very well have created deep resentment within myself. Afterall, who do these people think they are coming in here and disrupting my fool proof plan. Turns out, not all of the ideas I had for the direction of the group were as great as i Thought they were. I am happy to report that up until this point our meeting is 13 members strong with a weekly attendance of over thirty people. It is a meeting I love to go to and a group I love to serve.
ANY thoughts? Just setting the base here.

[jimhere]

Two parts to this tradition. The group conscience and leadership.

What is an informed group conscience and how is God expressed in that group conscience? This taken largely from the pamphlet "The A.A. Group."

-Careful discussion pro and con. We take our time, there are no emergencies
in AA. If we have to "call the question," there hasn't been enough discussion.

-God's voice can only be heard if we all get to be God's voice. Thus, the minority voice is vital because when it spurs discussion. An informed group conscience is the spiritual expression of the group's conscience. If there is not an informed group conscience, the group will die. It may continue to meet and vaguely resemble an AA meeting, but it will not be a group. The meeting is only one function of the group, but it is probably the main expression of the group's conscience.

-Practice of AA principles keeps personalities out of the picture. The principles of the right of the minority voice to be heard and the right of participation apply here. The minority voice is the most important voice in AA. It is the loving hand of God that keeps us in check. It keeps us from being tyranized by an apathetic, self-seeking, uninformed, angry, and hasty majority. The minority is encouraged to speak up. Indeed it has a duty to speak up. However, after it has made it's case, and is unable to sway the group, it has a responsibility to let go and trust the group conscience.

-Listening. I used to think AA was all about talking, when really it is about listening. I can only hear God's voice if I am listening, and I can only truly listen when my mind is quiet. So my own recovery plays a part in this process. By cleaning house on a regular basis, I keep my mind uncluttered enough to hear God's voice, which usually sounds like your voice. Lots of times you hear that "meditiation is listening and prayer is talking." Not so. Listening is prayer. Listening also lets you know that you are important to me.

-Don't fight or participate in quarrels. Speak up in truth and with love. Fighting is divisive. No lectures to be endured, no people to please, no axes to grind, etc.

-Respect as a principle. Do I show respect for my group's conscience? For your group's conscience? My group is my home and your group is your home. When I am a guest in your home, I should show respect for your home.

-So, when we all get to be God's voice and when we can set aside differences and personalities so that that voice can be expressed, what happens is unity. All of the Traditions point back to unity. Perhaps you noticed that I reference a couple of Concepts. The Concepts are just a broad form of The Second Tradition.
Jim

Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition

[lizw]

A few years ago I was involved in starting AA's national convention of young people in my country and by the time it had reached it's fifth year, I thought it had got a bit out of hand with everyones egos clashing, myself included.

At the end of it all, the area who hosted the convention that year suffered the most and the convention didn't nearly happen, and I suspect the convention will never return to that area again. Or if it does it won't be for a long time.

It took me age to 'get over' the resentment I had to some of the people involved in the convention and last I heard the chairman of the convention relapsed.

I'm telling this story because it's easy for me to let go of things to do with AA that I don't think are that important but it is the things that I stamp my feet and yell about that I really need to let go of. It's always the ones that I say 'no I will never let go of this'.

And then we either learn, or we drink. I'm thankful I'm still learning.

[bballdad]

thanks all
Yes Jim,I noticed the concepts and I am glad you did throw them in.We always give the minority a chance to be heard after a vote in our home group conscience.There have been times in the past they made so much sense we re-voted and changed our votes.
The minority won out!
It worked out fine as far as I could tell.
well,all groups(non AA groups) in this world have leaders of some kind..Do we need leaders?probally...,Do we need people to govern us?
bleeding deacons?Elder statesmen?no
God governs by expression Himself thru the assembled members.(where 2 or more are gathered is a term I love)

The leaders have a responsibility and also in my home group they have just enough authority to do the trusted servants job well as they see fit,according to their right to decide what to do when away from the group.Their authority is not to exceed their responsibility.We rotate these leadership or trusted servant jobs around.

how about an informed group conscience?
Like Jim said,we take our time.Why rush into a decision with little information?Whats the hurry?This teaches me to be more open minded and to listen better and think it over before I rush into something.

and about those concepts Jim mentioned
I find a home group conscience is a great place to practice a few of them.If they work for the business end of AA in New York,they surely will help my little home group out in NC.


great thread

[bballdad]

Jada,getting out of the way like that is a humility building exercise.
In a nearby town,about 12 yrs ago,a oldtimer friend of mine started a smoking meeting.It went well.The group grew like wildfire.The smoke was thick....they had to move into a bigger building.They continued to grow.Meetings every day,most days 3 a day.
Then came the big bomb last week.
The group got together and decided to make the meeting a non smoking meeting.My oldtimer friend has lost out.
He is still sober and doing fine by the way.

Originally Posted by jada311

" For our groups purpose ther is but one ultimate authority- A lovin GOD as he may express himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted sevants, they do not govern." ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS TWELVE TRADITIONS (LONG FORM)

Tradition one affirms that without out the group the individual dies and vice versa. Thus being the foundation of the remaining TWELVE TRADITIONS. Tradition 2 reasserts the fact that I am a small part of the whole. Although my insight is an important piece of the group conscience.


Last year an AA friend and I decided to start a group in our area. We had many ideas of how it should be run. After all we were in charge weren't we. In the beginning this was true. This man and myself secured the meeting hall, covered the insurance filed with GSO through our local area officers and announced our meeting. As the Group grew so did the members. The group conscience was born. What i thought was right for the group wasn't always so when laid before all the members. Things changed, votes took place Officers elected, commitments delegated. What started as a Two man deal had blossomed into a group. Had I not had a mild knowledge of this tradition it may very well have created deep resentment within myself. Afterall, who do these people think they are coming in here and disrupting my fool proof plan. Turns out, not all of the ideas I had for the direction of the group were as great as i Thought they were. I am happy to report that up until this point our meeting is 13 members strong with a weekly attendance of over thirty people. It is a meeting I love to go to and a group I love to serve.
ANY thoughts? Just setting the base here.

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by bballdad

thanks all
Yes Jim,I noticed the concepts and I am glad you did throw them in.We always give the minority a chance to be heard after a vote in our home group conscience.There have been times in the past they made so much sense we re-voted and changed our votes.
The minority won out!
It worked out fine as far as I could tell.
well,all groups(non AA groups) in this world have leaders of some kind..Do we need leaders?probally...,Do we need people to govern us?
bleeding deacons?Elder statesmen?no
God governs by expression Himself thru the assembled members.(where 2 or more are gathered is a term I love)

The leaders have a responsibility and also in my home group they have just enough authority to do the trusted servants job well as they see fit,according to their right to decide what to do when away from the group.Their authority is not to exceed their responsibility.We rotate these leadership or trusted servant jobs around.

how about an informed group conscience?
Like Jim said,we take our time.Why rush into a decision with little information?Whats the hurry?This teaches me to be more open minded and to listen better and think it over before I rush into something.

and about those concepts Jim mentioned
I find a home group conscience is a great place to practice a few of them.If they work for the business end of AA in New York,they surely will help my little home group out in NC.


great thread

Thanks Tommy. I noticed SR is kind of like f2f AA when it comes to discussing Traditions. Not a lot of participation.

Before I go into leadership in AA, I want to share an experience I had with minority opinion a few years ago. In our group we where discussing a motion to change the time of our meeting from 8pm to 7pm. Most people were all for it, including me. My reasons were purely selfish. So I could get home earlier and get more sleep. So the motion passed. The minority was asked to share it's views. From way in the back corner of the room, a voice was heard, that of one of the elder statesmen of the group. He had remained quiet during all the discussion. But now he posed several considerations to the group. Had we seriously considered how many people this change might affect? (Tradition 4) A group that meets eight blocks down the street at 7pm should have been consulted. The church we meet in should be consulted. And what about our trusted servants that had to arrive as much as an hour and a half early to get the coffee going? This one voice was enough to spur more discussion and a motion to reconsider. The second vote, including mine was a "not in favor of a change in the time that we meet."

So in that respect, I think we do need elder statesmen in our groups. But I agree that there is no place for a bleeding deacon, although I will have to admit that I passed through that stage and still probably come dangerously close to it at times.

There is a need for leadership in AA. But not a governmental heiracrchy. That is what is meant by "the least possible organization." (Tradition 9). As Tommy said, we endow our trusted servants with just enough authority to match their responsibility. (Concept X) I do believe we need structure to function, but not government. The real leaders in AA are people like the man in my group. He knew when to be quiet and when to speak up. Leaders have vision, humility, and integrity. A leader listens, especially to his critics. He knows that a good idea can come from anyone and readily gives credit to the source. A leader leads by personal spiritual example, not by mandate.

Tommy mentioned Concept III-the right of decision that we endow our leaders with. It comes down to trusting our servants to do the job they've been given to do with the authority that we've delegated to them to do it with.

Concept IX is about leadership in AA. Bill says that hit and miss methods of choosing our trusted servants should be avoided. Especially our GSR's. Too often I have seen some poor soul thrust into a position that they were not ready for because "it would be good for them." What that translates into is that "I am too lazy to do it myself, although I have the qualifications. I've done my share, let the new people do theirs." We don't take into account that sometimes these people are not spiritually ready for the responsibilty we give them. In fact what a terrible thing to do to them. Service is the fruit of recovery, not the other way around. We are also doing AA a disservice because it is the GSR's who ultimately choose our delegates. In my group we use the Third Legacy procedure to choose all of our servants, even the guy that picks up cigarette butts in the parking lots. We also have guidelines in place about length of sobriety, sponsorship & steps, etc, before a person can serve the group.

To conclude, leaders are needed in AA, but not governors.
Jim

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by bballdad

thanks all
Yes Jim,I noticed the concepts and I am glad you did throw them in.We always give the minority a chance to be heard after a vote in our home group conscience.There have been times in the past they made so much sense we re-voted and changed our votes.
The minority won out!
It worked out fine as far as I could tell.
well,all groups(non AA groups) in this world have leaders of some kind..Do we need leaders?probally...,Do we need people to govern us?
bleeding deacons?Elder statesmen?no
God governs by expression Himself thru the assembled members.(where 2 or more are gathered is a term I love)

The leaders have a responsibility and also in my home group they have just enough authority to do the trusted servants job well as they see fit,according to their right to decide what to do when away from the group.Their authority is not to exceed their responsibility.We rotate these leadership or trusted servant jobs around.

how about an informed group conscience?
Like Jim said,we take our time.Why rush into a decision with little information?Whats the hurry?This teaches me to be more open minded and to listen better and think it over before I rush into something.

and about those concepts Jim mentioned
I find a home group conscience is a great place to practice a few of them.If they work for the business end of AA in New York,they surely will help my little home group out in NC.


great thread

Thanks Tommy. I noticed SR is kind of like f2f AA when it comes to discussing Traditions. Not a lot of participation.

Before I go into leadership in AA, I want to share an experience I had with minority opinion a few years ago. In our group we where discussing a motion to change the time of our meeting from 8pm to 7pm. Most people were all for it, including me. My reasons were purely selfish. So I could get home earlier and get more sleep. So the motion passed. The minority was asked to share it's views. From way in the back corner of the room, a voice was heard, that of one of the elder statesmen of the group. He had remained quiet during all the discussion. But now he posed several considerations to the group. Had we seriously considered how many people this change might affect? (Tradition 4) A group that meets eight blocks down the street at 7pm should have been consulted. The church we meet in should be consulted. And what about our trusted servants that had to arrive as much as an hour and a half early to get the coffee going? This one voice was enough to spur more discussion and a motion to reconsider. The second vote, including mine was a "not in favor of a change in the time that we meet."

So in that respect, I think we do need elder statesmen in our groups. But I agree that there is no place for a bleeding deacon, although I will have to admit that I passed through that stage and still probably come dangerously close to it at times.

There is a need for leadership in AA. But not a governmental heiracrchy. That is what is meant by "the least possible organization." (Tradition 9). As Tommy said, we endow our trusted servants with just enough authority to match their responsibility. (Concept X) I do believe we need structure to function, but not government. The real leaders in AA are people like the man in my group. He knew when to be quiet and when to speak up. Leaders have vision, humility, and integrity. A leader listens, especially to his critics. He knows that a good idea can come from anyone and readily gives credit to the source. A leader leads by personal spiritual example, not by mandate.

Tommy mentioned Concept III-the right of decision that we endow our leaders with. It comes down to trusting our servants to do the job they've been given to do with the authority that we've delegated to them to do it with.

Concept IX is about leadership in AA. Bill says that hit and miss methods of choosing our trusted servants should be avoided. Especially our GSR's. Too often I have seen some poor soul thrust into a position that they were not ready for because "it would be good for them." What that translates into is that "I am too lazy to do it myself, although I have the qualifications. I've done my share, let the new people do theirs." We don't take into account that sometimes these people are not spiritually ready for the responsibilty we give them. In fact what a terrible thing to do to them. Service is the fruit of recovery, not the other way around. We are also doing AA a disservice because it is the GSR's who ultimately choose our delegates. In my group we use the Third Legacy procedure to choose all of our servants, even the guy that picks up cigarette butts in the parking lots. We also have guidelines in place about length of sobriety, sponsorship & steps, etc, before a person can serve the group.

To conclude, leaders are needed in AA, but not governors.
Jim

[bballdad]

thanks Jim
you mentioned one word I was thinking about today at work.
Trust
I did not trust many people when I was new and I thought they didn`t trust me much,my wife certainly didn`t.
The way AA is set up thru the Concepts and Traditions helps built trust.We learn to trust our trusted servants and we learn what it is like for others to put their trust in us.Thinking of the groups needs and not always our own.

One day a little of that carried over to the home and life here improved for us.

[jimhere]

Sorry for the double post. It had something to do with the problems SR was having this morning. I d didn't think it posted at all, so I apologize for inflicting that long-winded post twice on everyone.
Jim

[Rob B]

This is real good stuff, sadly, most groups here don't follow this work. My experience is limited to the traditions and sharing the principles behind them to new guys. Similar to JADA, a few of us started a Primary Purpose Group about a year ago, we are all solid with the 12 steps, but some of your experiences point out how we have a lot of room to grow in understaning with the application of traditions and concepts.

It's hard when the student can't find a teacher, some of you guys have been helping me learn more and I appreciate it, I'd really like to be a functioning member of a group that really applied these concepts. I tend to learn best by observing and then doing. I hope threads like this continue as I find them informative and would like to incorporate these values into my home group.

[CAPTAINZING2000]

What's so sad is, the lack of people showing any concern. Far too many people go to the meetings and don't take a role in helping out!!!

[bballdad]

There is a group that meets about 30 miles west of us.They are a rowdy bunch.Disorganized meetings,cussing while others are sharing,interrupting others etc...their home group conscience meetings are like a free for all.
I have a sponsee,Mike C,who went to their meetings for a while untill he sat in on one of their business meetings.It was chaos he said and now I appreciate the organization we have in ours.Maybe it is just me,but I like a good orderly group conscience meeting where newer members can share whats on their mind without feeling scared or threatened.Too many times the tone of the meeting can be set by a loud voice and long words.Then newcomers may be scared to ask questions or voice their thinking.
To be truly informed,I believe we should keep it calm,cool,and let those newer folks have their say too.

I ran across a piece from a guy named Dean.Some of you may have seen it.We guys use this format when we get together in Feb to plan our springs men`s AA camping weekend.It seems to work really good.
I would like to know how you all hold yours if you care to post,may see something that I can take back to my home group...tks


In A.A.'s "Benign Anarchy" Informed Group Conscience
Is Our Ultimate Authority
Box 459, News&Notes From the General Service Office of A.A. VOL 35, NO 1, FEB/MARCH 1989

Co-founder Bill W liked to call A.A. a "benign anarchy," and for good reason. A.A. is a spiritual movement, and as Tradition Two clearly states, our sole authority "is a loving God as He may express Himself in the group conscience." But what exactly is the group conscience? How does it differ from a group opinion or a majority vote? And what is the best way to get there?
It is generally agreed that the group conscience strives for unanimity through enlightenment, spirituality and adherence to our Steps, Traditions and Concepts. On sensitive issues, the group works slowly - discouraging formal motions until a clear sense of its collective view emerges. Placing principles before personalities, the group is wary of dominant opinions. Its voice is heard when a well-informed group arrives at a decision. The result rests on more than a "yes" or "no" count - precisely because it is the spiritual expression of the group conscience.
The late Dean K., who served a term as delegate, California/Northern Interior,and then managed the Seattle Central Office for a time, said that there are two ways to arrive at a group conscience: "The competitive way permits the person with the loudest voice to push his idea across, take a vote and come up with a majority decision. This is not informed group conscience. 1n the cooperative way, group members come together in mutual trust to arrive at a group decision, not one individual's personal triumph .
Dean's formula for a cooperative and informed group conscience calls for facts (or presentations) on both sides of a question. "The meeting is not thrown open for general discussion," he stressed. "This would allow the more vocal members to set the debate. It is suggested that the chairperson call on each member in turn, allowing two minutes for each to speak. No member should speak a second time until all have had their turns; this gives even the quietest person an equal chance.
The chairperson expresses his or her opinions only after all the others have spoken."
"It is important," Dean noted,"that the minority voice always be heard; but it should be born in mind that while the minority voice sometime is right, it is just as often wrong. Unless the minority voice is decidedly persuasive, it should be considered in its proper light - as a minority voice. To permit the minority always to influence the majority is to permit the tail to wag the dog."
Beyond the group level, the A.A. General Service Conference has the responsibility of acting as the collective group conscience of the Fellowship. About the closest thing to a collective voice that A.A.has, the Conference produces statements on important matters of policy that affect A.A. as a whole; approves the choice of some trustee nominees for the General Service Board and directly elects others. But neither the Conference nor the board can dictate to any A.A. group or member.
Not always understood, group conscience as expressed in Tradition Two is a powerful spiritual concept that makes it possible for people of diverse backgrounds and temperament to rise above personal ambition and unite in our common purpose: to stay sober and extend the hand of A.A. to the alcoholic who still suffers.
Has your group had an experience with group conscience that you would like to share? GSO welcomes your input.

[jimhere]

My friend Dennis on another site puts it this way: In order for there to be a true group conscience, there must first be a group consciousness.

I stated in another post that my recovery plays a part in this. So does yours. If there is no real recovery within the group, the business meeting will be a free-for-all and the group's meeting will reflect that.

Tommy's post also stresses why structure is so important. We alcoholics are a naturally undisciplined lot and from what I see resistant to structure. But spiritual development needs structure, both at the level of the individual and at the group level. Without discipline and structure you have a free-for-all. Groups like the one Tommy mentioned use the "But we aren't supposed to be organized" as a cop-out, just like the individual uses "progress and not perfection" as a cop-out and an excuse to stay sick. Best to let groups like that die.

I also appreciate what Dean has to say. A misinformed minority is just as dangerous as a misinformed majority if we let it sway us. But it is important to listen it first.
Jim

[jada311]

Originally Posted by bballdad

There is a group that meets about 30 miles west of us.They are a rowdy bunch.Disorganized meetings,cussing while others are sharing,interrupting others etc...their home group conscience meetings are like a free for all.
I have a sponsee,Mike C,who went to their meetings for a while untill he sat in on one of their business meetings.It was chaos he said and now I appreciate the organization we have in ours.Maybe it is just me,but I like a good orderly group conscience meeting where newer members can share whats on their mind without feeling scared or threatened.Too many times the tone of the meeting can be set by a loud voice and long words.Then newcomers may be scared to ask questions or voice their thinking.
To be truly informed,I believe we should keep it calm,cool,and let those newer folks have their say too.

I ran across a piece from a guy named Dean.Some of you may have seen it.We guys use this format when we get together in Feb to plan our springs men`s AA camping weekend.It seems to work really good.
I would like to know how you all hold yours if you care to post,may see something that I can take back to my home group...tks

Hi guys,

I have been following the post but caught up in other things for a few days. Truth is ...I got a new video game. I'm really just a 25yr old child. Alot of good stuff has been thrown out there and that makes me very grateful to have found this web site, and the fine folks that post on it. Tommy was talking about a group in the above quote that got me to thinking about a saying I've heard more than once " A group where anything goes, sooner or later nobody goes". It is important to AA as a whole that the individual groups practice this "benign anarchy", and equally important to the individual, because if the groups aren't there my sobriety isn't either. We've had a few groups like those that Tommy talked about and they aren't around anymore. They weed themselves out!!!
I also am starting to here alot about the concepts which is great. I don't know all too much about them. I mean i don't know them word for word i couldn't tell you what they were off the top of my head but I know how they work and I've listened to speakers on the concepts. I even got a first hand look and experience on the concepts in action at the conference this year, but i always like to learn more and i appreciate the posts from you guys.
Tradition 2 also helps me to accept things i don't agree with taht other groups do. For example we have a group around my way that won't let you celebrate for a year or even join the group or speak until you have reached a year sober. actually you can't even be from my area to speak at the meeting. However you can sponsor people at three months sober, you just can't speak or celebrate or be of service in anyway. I personally think that is very dangerous and misses the point of the newcomer being the most important, but i understand that their group conscience set the format and they are autonomous. The group is new so we'll just see how that works for them.

[jimhere]

Actually jada, the newcomer is not the most important person in the group. No one is. If I am more important than you, where is the unity in that? I agree that the newcomer is the lifeblood, but blood needs a heart, and I am here because the 12th Step was in some older, more experienced member's hearts one day.

As for that group you speak of, there is a similiar group here. In fact it is my old home group. It is the one I mentioned in previous post regarding the minority opinion. But it is a little different. They only celebrate yearly anniversaries and new members can't hold a service position in the group until they have been a group member for a year, been a year sober, and have taken the steps with a sponsor from the group. Also, if you are a newcomer in the group, you don't speak in the meeting until after you've done a 5th Step with your sponsor. Hell, I was fourteen years sober and had some solid recovery under my belt when I joined the group and I had to wait a year to hold a service position.

The group you mention is a little different. Can't join the group if you are not a year sober? No lifeblood there. If that is true, I don't look for it to last long. Some of the structure is similiar to my old group's but there are some fundamental differences.

My old group was formed by a man and his wife who had been sober a long time in AA without doing the steps and they had hit the wall with that when someone gave them a set of Joe & Charlie tapes. This was in 1988. They worked the steps with Joe & Charlie and started sponsoring that way and a group was born. The group was never designed specifically for the newcomer, but geared at the people that were dying in AA a long time sober.

Many in the Seattle area hate and misunderstand that group and you hear all sorts of bullshit like they only call on group members and what have you. Actually it is a very strong group, and very active in service to AA as a whole, and everyone I've taken there is impressed by how warmly they are welcomed. Why is all of this true? Because the group emphasizes recovery first with the newcomer, recognizing service can be a distraction from recovery. It also recognizes the fact that someone weak in recovery is not an asett to the group in service. There is a lot of unity in that group, it exists outside of the meeting and there is always a potluck, a step study, a group travel or something like that going on and newcomers are encouraged to participate, so there is a lot of unity within the group.

I miss that group. I had to leave it because I moved and got a different job whose hours won't allow me to get there. I've since joined a group here in town that is not a bad little group, not the same sort of structure, though. I've brought it up and there is the natural alcoholic resistance to structure and change, with the old "But this is the way we've always done it," and lot of emotionalsim amd the old 'But the newcomer is the most important," not realizing that a strong group is much more important, both to the newcomer and old timer alike.
Jim

[jada311]

You're right Jim. Thanks for calling me on that. I understand your point exactly. Though the group which you were apart of and the group I am discussing are a little different I can concede to everything you say. Like i was saying it is tradition 2 that keeps me in check with how I feel about what they do at their meeting. Group conscience is group conscience. That is what they felt their group needed and that is what it is. My opinion doesn't really matter on the issue.