Statistics AA 97% Failure Rate?
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Join Date: Jan 2009
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Statistics AA 97% Failure Rate?
What's the Problem with AA Today
When I came into AA 35 years ago, I was told that 75% never went back out 25% slipped and the majority of them came back..They often referred to themselves as 25 percenters...There was a language of AA in those day that you rarely here today.
Q: Today statistics say that only 3% who enter the doors make it in AA and stay sober..?
A: I read that just recently I was shocked.. First I got angry...I said that's ridiculous. What I see in meetings through the eyes of being an oldtimer is the same people every week. My regular meeting...was large breaking into 4 groups..The average sobriety in my group was about 25 years of .So I would see the same people every week..It wasn't so much what was said that was so important it was the association with others that kept us sober.
Q Are You saying then you avoided newcomers?
A That wasn't the only meeting I attended. I preferred the discussion meetings..There again I usually saw the same people with varying times of sobriety. People who went out appeared to be the exception rather than the rule..In fact it never really entered my mind but I assumed the percentage of people who stayed were quite high...75% in my mind a fair casual personal estimate..and the rest return in time.
Q So what you are saying is that you did not see a problem?
A Not Exactly... But out of the side of my mouth I would say..somewhat factiously, but perhaps steeped in a bit of frustration...That “I wouldn't make it today in AA as a new comer.”
Q So therefore you HAVE noticed a change...
A Yes I have noticed a change..I guess after reading statistics... change to an alarming degree...If the statistics are correct, I must conclude that AA is failing them...
Q Do you believe the statistics of 3% to 5% are correct.
A I don't go to too many open speakers meetings...Many are very large. Usually two speakers will give their talk lasting perhaps a little less than one half hour...The make up of these meetings are entirely different from a closed discussion group..who are admitted alcoholics.. I might be wrong but I think much Input from these meeting enter into the statistical equation. With me going to that type was more social seeing old friends.
Then again you have the Court Ordered..Some guy has a little to much to drink, he's given a DUI..and ordered to AA...Most are not alcoholics, and no desire to be there..but I guess in their mind it's better than jail...
Q Okay then even accounting or discounting some of the statistics..would you agree then the success rate is still alarmingly low.
A Yes I would...I'm a realist, and in face of those statistics, if nearly correct, I would have to reluctantly conclude that it is NOT working for those entering the doors.
Q So is there a solution for people who have an alcoholic problem..
A Yes AA..... If someone asks the question how does AA work...The answer is Just Fine..That answer has a double meaning..To the person who answered..the meaning is simple..the program is working for him or her...For the person who asked...the answer is meaningless.
Q So what you are saying is that those who are successful don't care about a newcomer.
A. From that answer you could interpret as such..but there is no answer it needs to be experienced not defined. You see recovery comes from the heart and the soul not from the mind.
Q But the statistics ARE that the people are coming through the doors, and they are not making it...or staying with it
A. Look when I was new, before the information revolution ..before U-Tube..Googling facts none of these questions or problems ever arose...You now tell a person that he has only a 3% chance of making it..of course he'll fail. If I was told I had a 3% chance of making it when I walked through the doors...my mind would have said...why bother..and I would have been dead 35 years ago.
Q In the beginnings of AA the acknowledged statistics were quite high..
A Yes I was never much for the statistics..It's funny..those of us who have been sober a good while are immune to this...and would consider the conclusions to be rubbish..with little regard for these message bearers.
What I do know..and just recently from all this, is that supposedly the Cleveland group had a 93% success and Akron 75%..which is what I came to believe listening in my days at my early meetings..But what is VITALLY IMPORANT is this it never entered my mind..because I was experiencing recovery...The thought of failure never entered my mind..You might say I worked the program..there wasn't that distracting feature of negative statistics around..the problem with today..If you tell a person he will fail..he probably will..
Q. Are you then implying that the reason AA is not working is the published statistics.
A the academic will say that we learn through social conditioning.. and this academic conditioning says that AA only works for a select few.. and I say people are hearing and learning the wrong stuff when it comes to AA and their respective chances of recovery.
Q How do you know they are learning the wrong stuff?
A You mean that you are right and the academic is wrong?.. They are certainly not hearing nor identifying what I heard walking through the doors..So they are leaving..apparently in droves. I stuck around.
Q So the academic is right..AA only works for a select few. If they are walking out using your term in droves.
A The Academic is only reporting what is...Some of those are rather intelligent. Altruistically they are trying to come up with a solution for the 97% who walk out the doors... I might have over used the word altruistic.. there's a lot of money in this negative 97% by the way...
The usual method is to write a book..with some type of exercise or affirmation program coupled with a goombiya support attitude..If they can find a way to sell some more products, and sell associated books to a captured audience...It all adds to their own respective career profitability. There is an industry in this 97%..and potentially a very profitable one.
Q Well if it works for people, then it's validated.?
A. Statistics will tell you that very few recover this way..The harm it does is to distract those to the real solution AA.. If the success rate in the beginnings was as high as 93%..what is the problem today...Finding THAT solution is the answer...Not these hocus pocus methods.
Q So you think all these programs are hocus pocus.?
A. We live in a society today where people who are generally unqualified can be heard..
Q So you think these people are unqualified..?
A..They are over their head is what I mean..Their PHD's are not going to cut it.. It's not up to the pay grade..Look Carl Jung was a medical doctor a psychiatrist .He worked the trenches many years...first under Freud and then on his own ..If you read a bio..what impressed me is the incredible conditions in “mental wards” they experienced ..no wonder why psychiatrist's have such a high suicide rate, I understand it now. It's really shocking..You got to be one tough hombre...and what did Carl Jung say...He true to a professional integrity would not work with the alcoholic...Why?..He stated the Alcoholic needs a “spiritual conversion”..He wrote Bill W. and commended him for his success with alcoholics. That my friend is quite an endorsement....even by today's standards.
Again going back to your question on qualifications..and let's not forget what we are talking about a “cure from alcoholism”?...The field is rampant with young woman,young men fresh from XYZ State University with PHD's.. They neither have the age, experience, or proper education to tackle the problem...At best they can direct a few peers who are vulnerable to begin with in the right direction..that's the real benefit..
Q.If it helps a certain percentage in recovery..isn't that good..I mean it's saving lives?
A. The human mind can process just so much information and their dissertations to this percentage is distracting and harmful to finding the real solution that they so desperately need. And that is... AA....Then you have the snake oil salesmen who are like sharks..sensing a vulnerability and an easy kill with a smart pitch..They get rich selling them a pipe dream..an easier softer way..
What do you mean by a smart pitch?
LOL..First...the ones that put AA down..You see it on U-tube..It's destructive and prejudicial to the young minds..I've seen it...A friend had a daughter 18 years old..She hated this that and the other thing.. Supposedly hatedher parents who knew nothing, rebellious,..She was experiencing growing up pains...drinking and driving..auto accident, her boyfriend dead...Hospital for months, then jail 5 years..You do the math..I've seen it time and again. THAT type of messaging and the other negative propaganda makes the job of AA that much more difficult..Particularly with the young
Q. But you are always going to have negative propaganda?
A. That's true, but remember those who read the message are potentially sick and need help
that stuff is not exactly a life ring.. At that point, a remedy for a fatal illness? The debate might be construed as a medical issue. You don't see public castigation for a cancer treatment or medicine for heart disease..Yes I understand the disease concept is challenged and alcoholism is social in nature...but to be subjected to the pillaging and public derision I've seen briefly on U-tube is inconceivable, and irresponsible and in poor taste from a few individuals who should have known or acted better.
Q So you are saying U-Tube is no good..and all that stuff should be taken off?
A No..That not why I fought for my Country ..You got to take the good with the bad..and it's each and every one's responsibility to make the proper choice..but in my opinion that stuff ultimately just bolsters the negative statistics.
A. Is there anything good about AA on U-Tube?
Q. And that's the other side of the equation and freedom of expression. Father Joe Martin's material will save lives, and properly orient the body soul and mind in the right direction..I know because it helped save my life and one of the reasons why I'm sober 35 years...Thank God he was around when I came in the doors.
Q So you are endorsing Fr. Joe Martin?
A Don't put words in my mouth..All I'm saying is what worked and works for me...and that is very important...
Q And Why is that so important
A Because it strikes at the very heart of the issue..Statistics...statistics can go up and down..reversed rather quickly..if the problem and solution are identified and corrected
Q Are you saying you have the Solution..?
A. I have the solution for me.. for over 35 years. Thanks to AA . At the least, It does give me a heightened insight into the problem...Remember what we are talking about, a success rate of 75% or more when I came in, and now 35 years later a publically acknowledged success rate of 3%.
Q So what is the Problem and what are the Solutions as you see it.
A. First the Problem: a) If the candidate walking through the doors has been exposed to the aforementioned, “the negative stats” he has strike one against him already...strike one...97% failure rate reported
b) If AA doesn't work for him..there are other “alternative treatments”? Strike two.
A potential successful candidate needs to surrender..and realize that AA is the last house on the block... his condition is serious there ARE NO more alternatives...”That's what I heard”.. It got my attention.. strike three and you are running a race with the undertaker....
My point...I wasn't faced with anything like that ..It was easy to accept AA the program to get well knowing or caring little about statistics...and questionable alternatives
Second of all it was a generational thing..I was born during the WW2 crowd... a tough disciplined generation...certainly not the goombiya crowd..I was taught to respect elders..my education focused and disciplined.. My point..part of the problem as I see it,..you are dealing with a different breed of cat... the type who has been exposed to the point of distraction of too much information, easily conditioned to making bad choices and or drawing the wrong conclusions of all the possibilities in his life... That typeof liberal attitude or conditioning is not going to work in AA. unless it smashed. Tearfully it takes near disaster,or disaster to be predisposed to AA . It comes down to BELIEF...SURVIVAL..and until the person realizes it himself he's not ready...Some never realize it..some never reach that point of surrender, humility and honesty..and die...never realizing..simple survival is on the line.
Q So What is the Solution?
A The Solution is AA....The solution is about not changing AA..The solution is changing the person who has two strikes against him..You see when I came to bat the count was no balls no strikes I was a fresh batter...I was open minded and willing to LISTEN.
Q. You Emphasized the word LISTEN are they not listening?
A That's right they aren't listening .
Q. That might be construed as a bit simplistic, distorted even arrogant and opinionated..You don't know what they are hearing.
A. If what you said was referenced as an academic exercise, I would stand corrected and accept your argument.. But you see one needs not listen with their head..that will lead to rejection by a candidate with an 0-2 strike count but one needs to listen with their HEART..To listen on that level one needs complete surrender that they are alcoholic and AA simply can help
Q So you are saying the reason why success statistics are so low is simply because those coming through the doors are not listening.
A. Sadly, I believe that to be the case..It's not a conscious in-attentiveness. It's like someone who is deaf...whatever the reason..The fact is, he is incapable of hearing the music like you or I
Q. Can it be correctable
A. With an 0 and 2 count it's difficult ..but it can be done.
Q How
A. I had eight years of architectural training...You don't start out at the top..you start at the bottom learning the simple things...learning those small humble details. It leads to solving more complex issues..and then you start putting it altogether..”it's learned in the mind's eye” you mastered the fundamentals...then after much sweat and hard work one is inspired and creates ultimately that masterpiece...but it all begins with a humble beginning..a willingness to listen to learn..whether it comes from a professor or a book....We see it all around us a talented Olympic ice-skater..a ballet dancer..a professional football player..The best have mastered the fundamentals...and they give their talent away inspiring others...How many hardened top executives, CEO's have been brought to tears listening to the Late Pavarotti's aria. Nessun Dorma........We are all connected..This connectiveness breeds Love not cynicism .
Q. So you are saying that connection can be accomplished in AA
A. It starts with the fundamentals...For a person with two strikes...The first lesson:.Don't Think, Don't Drink, and go to Meetings....There has to be 100% focus on that lesson..It must be life's priority..
#2..Stick around till the miracle happens...One day you look at a person..you see an arrogant, defensive, talkative, opinionated person with quick witted, what he thinks, cleaver responses.. The day after a quiet humble person, with a smile..at peace with himself..What has happened a spiritual experience as a result of learning lesson 1.. If he stays on that path he will get and stay sober..and statistics will be reversed.
Q. So It's that Simple
A. As a starter yes..It requires that spiritual conversion, that spiritual awakening as stated in the AA literature...That's hard to swallow in this day of secular cynicism. I would venture to say if a candidate got that far...the negative stats on AA effectiveness would plummet.
Q. And Then what..
A. The rest is easy...it's like teaching a kid to ride a bike...once he loses the fear of falling, starts to peddle, finds his balance, rolling along experiencing,..he doesn't want to stop..and that's what happens in AA..The candidate is teachable...Welcome to AA
Q So AA is a religious program...That's what the Supreme Court says and a lot of people don't
want to join a Religious Cult.
A. I can tell you first hand.. I've experienced it...There ARE NO atheists in a fox hole...The spiritual connectiveness is so strong..The bond is tangible..when under a threat of possible attack that is life threatening.
Q. So what you are saying AA is Spiritual not Religious.
A. Exactly...The spiritual awakening, in it's fundamental practical application will reconnect you to the human race.. the enjoyment and sharing of life with others.....Religious...Not at all the Third step says go out and find God yourself..believe what you want to believe...That's a far cry from any religion I ever encountered..
Q But what about the criticism or argument against the dullness, drabness, the boredom of AA meetings.
A..That's why I said Lesson #1... was Don't Think, Don't Drink, and go to meetings...The candidate with the 0-2 count will relate along those lines of your question.. BEFORE the miracle will take place. The sick alcoholic's cynical mind can only be combated through that discipline...until the spiritual wakening takes place. When that happens paraphrasing the words of John Kennedy: Ask not what the meetings can do for you, but what you can do for the meetings...You see we are not fanatics...we realize that successful living is sharing..doing for others..it starts out at meetings...Then that energy transcends into the real world and you are ready...to become the person God meant you to be...
Am I a fanatic, am I in a cult of course not...It's just in me, a connected person, who would like to see that 97%, if that's the case reversed...No one even sent me an E-mail on my 35th anniversary of continuous sobriety.. LOL...certainly not characteristic of being in a cult is it?. A forgotten sailor.LOL
AA needs no defense, the cynic in me says I could care less, what supposed problems AA has, doesn't affect me in the slightest. Ie my lack of awareness of the aforementioned negative stats. I get nothing monetarily out of this, I never did, but I've been compensated and rewarded by God.. If what I wrote would just save one person...what a reward..”It would be nice if he rewarded me with fair winds on my upcoming sail to Australia from Panama. LOL
One other area that needs to be learned and it will in time..ie the understanding of Anonymity..It's not the people with the designer clothes or the shiny cars who have the most to teach...it's sometimes the person from the jails, the streets who have had that conversion.. with all the qualifications as a teacher they have been there..but first the conversion needs to be effected... You soon learn that we are all the same...connected brothers and sisters..You soon learn the meaning of principles above personalities.
Do yourself a favor..Learn to ride that bike.
When I came into AA 35 years ago, I was told that 75% never went back out 25% slipped and the majority of them came back..They often referred to themselves as 25 percenters...There was a language of AA in those day that you rarely here today.
Q: Today statistics say that only 3% who enter the doors make it in AA and stay sober..?
A: I read that just recently I was shocked.. First I got angry...I said that's ridiculous. What I see in meetings through the eyes of being an oldtimer is the same people every week. My regular meeting...was large breaking into 4 groups..The average sobriety in my group was about 25 years of .So I would see the same people every week..It wasn't so much what was said that was so important it was the association with others that kept us sober.
Q Are You saying then you avoided newcomers?
A That wasn't the only meeting I attended. I preferred the discussion meetings..There again I usually saw the same people with varying times of sobriety. People who went out appeared to be the exception rather than the rule..In fact it never really entered my mind but I assumed the percentage of people who stayed were quite high...75% in my mind a fair casual personal estimate..and the rest return in time.
Q So what you are saying is that you did not see a problem?
A Not Exactly... But out of the side of my mouth I would say..somewhat factiously, but perhaps steeped in a bit of frustration...That “I wouldn't make it today in AA as a new comer.”
Q So therefore you HAVE noticed a change...
A Yes I have noticed a change..I guess after reading statistics... change to an alarming degree...If the statistics are correct, I must conclude that AA is failing them...
Q Do you believe the statistics of 3% to 5% are correct.
A I don't go to too many open speakers meetings...Many are very large. Usually two speakers will give their talk lasting perhaps a little less than one half hour...The make up of these meetings are entirely different from a closed discussion group..who are admitted alcoholics.. I might be wrong but I think much Input from these meeting enter into the statistical equation. With me going to that type was more social seeing old friends.
Then again you have the Court Ordered..Some guy has a little to much to drink, he's given a DUI..and ordered to AA...Most are not alcoholics, and no desire to be there..but I guess in their mind it's better than jail...
Q Okay then even accounting or discounting some of the statistics..would you agree then the success rate is still alarmingly low.
A Yes I would...I'm a realist, and in face of those statistics, if nearly correct, I would have to reluctantly conclude that it is NOT working for those entering the doors.
Q So is there a solution for people who have an alcoholic problem..
A Yes AA..... If someone asks the question how does AA work...The answer is Just Fine..That answer has a double meaning..To the person who answered..the meaning is simple..the program is working for him or her...For the person who asked...the answer is meaningless.
Q So what you are saying is that those who are successful don't care about a newcomer.
A. From that answer you could interpret as such..but there is no answer it needs to be experienced not defined. You see recovery comes from the heart and the soul not from the mind.
Q But the statistics ARE that the people are coming through the doors, and they are not making it...or staying with it
A. Look when I was new, before the information revolution ..before U-Tube..Googling facts none of these questions or problems ever arose...You now tell a person that he has only a 3% chance of making it..of course he'll fail. If I was told I had a 3% chance of making it when I walked through the doors...my mind would have said...why bother..and I would have been dead 35 years ago.
Q In the beginnings of AA the acknowledged statistics were quite high..
A Yes I was never much for the statistics..It's funny..those of us who have been sober a good while are immune to this...and would consider the conclusions to be rubbish..with little regard for these message bearers.
What I do know..and just recently from all this, is that supposedly the Cleveland group had a 93% success and Akron 75%..which is what I came to believe listening in my days at my early meetings..But what is VITALLY IMPORANT is this it never entered my mind..because I was experiencing recovery...The thought of failure never entered my mind..You might say I worked the program..there wasn't that distracting feature of negative statistics around..the problem with today..If you tell a person he will fail..he probably will..
Q. Are you then implying that the reason AA is not working is the published statistics.
A the academic will say that we learn through social conditioning.. and this academic conditioning says that AA only works for a select few.. and I say people are hearing and learning the wrong stuff when it comes to AA and their respective chances of recovery.
Q How do you know they are learning the wrong stuff?
A You mean that you are right and the academic is wrong?.. They are certainly not hearing nor identifying what I heard walking through the doors..So they are leaving..apparently in droves. I stuck around.
Q So the academic is right..AA only works for a select few. If they are walking out using your term in droves.
A The Academic is only reporting what is...Some of those are rather intelligent. Altruistically they are trying to come up with a solution for the 97% who walk out the doors... I might have over used the word altruistic.. there's a lot of money in this negative 97% by the way...
The usual method is to write a book..with some type of exercise or affirmation program coupled with a goombiya support attitude..If they can find a way to sell some more products, and sell associated books to a captured audience...It all adds to their own respective career profitability. There is an industry in this 97%..and potentially a very profitable one.
Q Well if it works for people, then it's validated.?
A. Statistics will tell you that very few recover this way..The harm it does is to distract those to the real solution AA.. If the success rate in the beginnings was as high as 93%..what is the problem today...Finding THAT solution is the answer...Not these hocus pocus methods.
Q So you think all these programs are hocus pocus.?
A. We live in a society today where people who are generally unqualified can be heard..
Q So you think these people are unqualified..?
A..They are over their head is what I mean..Their PHD's are not going to cut it.. It's not up to the pay grade..Look Carl Jung was a medical doctor a psychiatrist .He worked the trenches many years...first under Freud and then on his own ..If you read a bio..what impressed me is the incredible conditions in “mental wards” they experienced ..no wonder why psychiatrist's have such a high suicide rate, I understand it now. It's really shocking..You got to be one tough hombre...and what did Carl Jung say...He true to a professional integrity would not work with the alcoholic...Why?..He stated the Alcoholic needs a “spiritual conversion”..He wrote Bill W. and commended him for his success with alcoholics. That my friend is quite an endorsement....even by today's standards.
Again going back to your question on qualifications..and let's not forget what we are talking about a “cure from alcoholism”?...The field is rampant with young woman,young men fresh from XYZ State University with PHD's.. They neither have the age, experience, or proper education to tackle the problem...At best they can direct a few peers who are vulnerable to begin with in the right direction..that's the real benefit..
Q.If it helps a certain percentage in recovery..isn't that good..I mean it's saving lives?
A. The human mind can process just so much information and their dissertations to this percentage is distracting and harmful to finding the real solution that they so desperately need. And that is... AA....Then you have the snake oil salesmen who are like sharks..sensing a vulnerability and an easy kill with a smart pitch..They get rich selling them a pipe dream..an easier softer way..
What do you mean by a smart pitch?
LOL..First...the ones that put AA down..You see it on U-tube..It's destructive and prejudicial to the young minds..I've seen it...A friend had a daughter 18 years old..She hated this that and the other thing.. Supposedly hatedher parents who knew nothing, rebellious,..She was experiencing growing up pains...drinking and driving..auto accident, her boyfriend dead...Hospital for months, then jail 5 years..You do the math..I've seen it time and again. THAT type of messaging and the other negative propaganda makes the job of AA that much more difficult..Particularly with the young
Q. But you are always going to have negative propaganda?
A. That's true, but remember those who read the message are potentially sick and need help
that stuff is not exactly a life ring.. At that point, a remedy for a fatal illness? The debate might be construed as a medical issue. You don't see public castigation for a cancer treatment or medicine for heart disease..Yes I understand the disease concept is challenged and alcoholism is social in nature...but to be subjected to the pillaging and public derision I've seen briefly on U-tube is inconceivable, and irresponsible and in poor taste from a few individuals who should have known or acted better.
Q So you are saying U-Tube is no good..and all that stuff should be taken off?
A No..That not why I fought for my Country ..You got to take the good with the bad..and it's each and every one's responsibility to make the proper choice..but in my opinion that stuff ultimately just bolsters the negative statistics.
A. Is there anything good about AA on U-Tube?
Q. And that's the other side of the equation and freedom of expression. Father Joe Martin's material will save lives, and properly orient the body soul and mind in the right direction..I know because it helped save my life and one of the reasons why I'm sober 35 years...Thank God he was around when I came in the doors.
Q So you are endorsing Fr. Joe Martin?
A Don't put words in my mouth..All I'm saying is what worked and works for me...and that is very important...
Q And Why is that so important
A Because it strikes at the very heart of the issue..Statistics...statistics can go up and down..reversed rather quickly..if the problem and solution are identified and corrected
Q Are you saying you have the Solution..?
A. I have the solution for me.. for over 35 years. Thanks to AA . At the least, It does give me a heightened insight into the problem...Remember what we are talking about, a success rate of 75% or more when I came in, and now 35 years later a publically acknowledged success rate of 3%.
Q So what is the Problem and what are the Solutions as you see it.
A. First the Problem: a) If the candidate walking through the doors has been exposed to the aforementioned, “the negative stats” he has strike one against him already...strike one...97% failure rate reported
b) If AA doesn't work for him..there are other “alternative treatments”? Strike two.
A potential successful candidate needs to surrender..and realize that AA is the last house on the block... his condition is serious there ARE NO more alternatives...”That's what I heard”.. It got my attention.. strike three and you are running a race with the undertaker....
My point...I wasn't faced with anything like that ..It was easy to accept AA the program to get well knowing or caring little about statistics...and questionable alternatives
Second of all it was a generational thing..I was born during the WW2 crowd... a tough disciplined generation...certainly not the goombiya crowd..I was taught to respect elders..my education focused and disciplined.. My point..part of the problem as I see it,..you are dealing with a different breed of cat... the type who has been exposed to the point of distraction of too much information, easily conditioned to making bad choices and or drawing the wrong conclusions of all the possibilities in his life... That typeof liberal attitude or conditioning is not going to work in AA. unless it smashed. Tearfully it takes near disaster,or disaster to be predisposed to AA . It comes down to BELIEF...SURVIVAL..and until the person realizes it himself he's not ready...Some never realize it..some never reach that point of surrender, humility and honesty..and die...never realizing..simple survival is on the line.
Q So What is the Solution?
A The Solution is AA....The solution is about not changing AA..The solution is changing the person who has two strikes against him..You see when I came to bat the count was no balls no strikes I was a fresh batter...I was open minded and willing to LISTEN.
Q. You Emphasized the word LISTEN are they not listening?
A That's right they aren't listening .
Q. That might be construed as a bit simplistic, distorted even arrogant and opinionated..You don't know what they are hearing.
A. If what you said was referenced as an academic exercise, I would stand corrected and accept your argument.. But you see one needs not listen with their head..that will lead to rejection by a candidate with an 0-2 strike count but one needs to listen with their HEART..To listen on that level one needs complete surrender that they are alcoholic and AA simply can help
Q So you are saying the reason why success statistics are so low is simply because those coming through the doors are not listening.
A. Sadly, I believe that to be the case..It's not a conscious in-attentiveness. It's like someone who is deaf...whatever the reason..The fact is, he is incapable of hearing the music like you or I
Q. Can it be correctable
A. With an 0 and 2 count it's difficult ..but it can be done.
Q How
A. I had eight years of architectural training...You don't start out at the top..you start at the bottom learning the simple things...learning those small humble details. It leads to solving more complex issues..and then you start putting it altogether..”it's learned in the mind's eye” you mastered the fundamentals...then after much sweat and hard work one is inspired and creates ultimately that masterpiece...but it all begins with a humble beginning..a willingness to listen to learn..whether it comes from a professor or a book....We see it all around us a talented Olympic ice-skater..a ballet dancer..a professional football player..The best have mastered the fundamentals...and they give their talent away inspiring others...How many hardened top executives, CEO's have been brought to tears listening to the Late Pavarotti's aria. Nessun Dorma........We are all connected..This connectiveness breeds Love not cynicism .
Q. So you are saying that connection can be accomplished in AA
A. It starts with the fundamentals...For a person with two strikes...The first lesson:.Don't Think, Don't Drink, and go to Meetings....There has to be 100% focus on that lesson..It must be life's priority..
#2..Stick around till the miracle happens...One day you look at a person..you see an arrogant, defensive, talkative, opinionated person with quick witted, what he thinks, cleaver responses.. The day after a quiet humble person, with a smile..at peace with himself..What has happened a spiritual experience as a result of learning lesson 1.. If he stays on that path he will get and stay sober..and statistics will be reversed.
Q. So It's that Simple
A. As a starter yes..It requires that spiritual conversion, that spiritual awakening as stated in the AA literature...That's hard to swallow in this day of secular cynicism. I would venture to say if a candidate got that far...the negative stats on AA effectiveness would plummet.
Q. And Then what..
A. The rest is easy...it's like teaching a kid to ride a bike...once he loses the fear of falling, starts to peddle, finds his balance, rolling along experiencing,..he doesn't want to stop..and that's what happens in AA..The candidate is teachable...Welcome to AA
Q So AA is a religious program...That's what the Supreme Court says and a lot of people don't
want to join a Religious Cult.
A. I can tell you first hand.. I've experienced it...There ARE NO atheists in a fox hole...The spiritual connectiveness is so strong..The bond is tangible..when under a threat of possible attack that is life threatening.
Q. So what you are saying AA is Spiritual not Religious.
A. Exactly...The spiritual awakening, in it's fundamental practical application will reconnect you to the human race.. the enjoyment and sharing of life with others.....Religious...Not at all the Third step says go out and find God yourself..believe what you want to believe...That's a far cry from any religion I ever encountered..
Q But what about the criticism or argument against the dullness, drabness, the boredom of AA meetings.
A..That's why I said Lesson #1... was Don't Think, Don't Drink, and go to meetings...The candidate with the 0-2 count will relate along those lines of your question.. BEFORE the miracle will take place. The sick alcoholic's cynical mind can only be combated through that discipline...until the spiritual wakening takes place. When that happens paraphrasing the words of John Kennedy: Ask not what the meetings can do for you, but what you can do for the meetings...You see we are not fanatics...we realize that successful living is sharing..doing for others..it starts out at meetings...Then that energy transcends into the real world and you are ready...to become the person God meant you to be...
Am I a fanatic, am I in a cult of course not...It's just in me, a connected person, who would like to see that 97%, if that's the case reversed...No one even sent me an E-mail on my 35th anniversary of continuous sobriety.. LOL...certainly not characteristic of being in a cult is it?. A forgotten sailor.LOL
AA needs no defense, the cynic in me says I could care less, what supposed problems AA has, doesn't affect me in the slightest. Ie my lack of awareness of the aforementioned negative stats. I get nothing monetarily out of this, I never did, but I've been compensated and rewarded by God.. If what I wrote would just save one person...what a reward..”It would be nice if he rewarded me with fair winds on my upcoming sail to Australia from Panama. LOL
One other area that needs to be learned and it will in time..ie the understanding of Anonymity..It's not the people with the designer clothes or the shiny cars who have the most to teach...it's sometimes the person from the jails, the streets who have had that conversion.. with all the qualifications as a teacher they have been there..but first the conversion needs to be effected... You soon learn that we are all the same...connected brothers and sisters..You soon learn the meaning of principles above personalities.
Do yourself a favor..Learn to ride that bike.
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
Matt. 13:1-32
If, we were talking baseball, 7 failed tries out of 10 would be a superstar!!
Some people are placed on Earth to be used as examples.
We carry the message, not the alcoholic.
I've always gritted my teeth at any AA statistics. It's not like we're signed up at a meeting.
Would it be fair to say, these types of surveys are skewed??
I'm glad to be in the 3 % success rate
If, we were talking baseball, 7 failed tries out of 10 would be a superstar!!
Some people are placed on Earth to be used as examples.
We carry the message, not the alcoholic.
I've always gritted my teeth at any AA statistics. It's not like we're signed up at a meeting.
Would it be fair to say, these types of surveys are skewed??
I'm glad to be in the 3 % success rate
Attitude of Gratitude
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 2,305
Thanks Capt!!!
I have to admit, I didn't read the long thread. What caught my attention is the statistic part. Where do these come from? I don't remember ever filling out a survey at any of the meetings I have been to over the past 3 1/2 years.
For this alcoholic and addict, AA was one of the major contributors to my success in Recovery.
Statistics don't matter to me, what matters is that I'm Clean & Sober . . . Happy, Joyous & Free.
God Bless,
Judy
I have to admit, I didn't read the long thread. What caught my attention is the statistic part. Where do these come from? I don't remember ever filling out a survey at any of the meetings I have been to over the past 3 1/2 years.
For this alcoholic and addict, AA was one of the major contributors to my success in Recovery.
Statistics don't matter to me, what matters is that I'm Clean & Sober . . . Happy, Joyous & Free.
God Bless,
Judy
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
I live in a small town
We see the one's going thru the revolving door of AA
Out the door, their names in the paper for some alcohol related charge.
I suggested before thestart of every meeting we read the arrest report of the sick and suffering as a gentle reminder of those who choose a different path then AA etc.
We see the one's going thru the revolving door of AA
Out the door, their names in the paper for some alcohol related charge.
I suggested before thestart of every meeting we read the arrest report of the sick and suffering as a gentle reminder of those who choose a different path then AA etc.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 44
We who are successful don't see it...and find it hard to believe ..When I went to U-Tube to listen to Fr. Martin I was first introduced to that statistic through other video tubes....I got very angry at the message bearers..
I then went ot Google.. and began to realize there was something to these stats..."see for youself"..I was openminded , accepted things as it were, and took action
The result was what I wrote for the benefit of those...who have not found the solution to Alcoholism..I wrote a reasoned post last week on AA revisted..for tose having problems qwith accepting the progra.
This post I hope is a little stronger message for the skeptics and the sinners..
Are the statistics skewered..,I don't know..Judge for yourself..It gives me a headache thinking what goes through the mind o staticians..LOL
Remember our primary purpose..To stay sober and help others to recover from alcoholism. The second part of that statement very important
I then went ot Google.. and began to realize there was something to these stats..."see for youself"..I was openminded , accepted things as it were, and took action
The result was what I wrote for the benefit of those...who have not found the solution to Alcoholism..I wrote a reasoned post last week on AA revisted..for tose having problems qwith accepting the progra.
This post I hope is a little stronger message for the skeptics and the sinners..
Are the statistics skewered..,I don't know..Judge for yourself..It gives me a headache thinking what goes through the mind o staticians..LOL
Remember our primary purpose..To stay sober and help others to recover from alcoholism. The second part of that statement very important
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
I have never been able to figure out where these "statistics" come from. lol
When I got to AA back in June of '81, there were all sorts in the meetings. The "Old Timers." The ones with anywhere from 2 years on up. Then we had the '90 Day Wonders.' Over and over again. Then there were several that would make 9 or 10 months and disappear and return in 2 or 3 months.
I think what brought it home to me was Jerry G. He would get between 10months and 15 months and then be gone again. Well he disappeared again when I was about 4 years sober. He was found a week, maybe 2 later, dead behind a Ralph's grocery store. Seemed he had passed out by the dumpster and been run over by the garbage truck.
Now that really brought home to (other than my own death that I had experienced) how dangerous it was to even consider going back out.
There was a gal, that came through the Sober Living Women's Recovery House after I did. She too would keep going out. Moved all around Southern California but could never get more than 8 or 9 months. I happened to see her a few years ago. She was married, to a fellow in the military, they were here for about 6 months, and.............................she had over 13 years continuous in recovery.
So......................................the point of above is this, I have seen over the years folks go in and out, in and out, and some do not make it, however, I have seen many many more 'get it' further down the line.
There used to be a saying that I don't hear much any more:
"A belly full of booze and a head full of AA don't mix, and AA usually wins."
I still believe that to be true today.
I do feel that with the advent of the internet, the 'full blown' alcoholic feels they have more anonymity by going on line, and thus justifies their 'denial' maybe a bit longer. However, the other side of that coin is that a practicing alcoholic that is 'sick and tired' has more information and treatment readily available to them than I ever did.
97% Failure Rate??? No one will ever convince me of that!!!!!
J M H O
Love and hugs,
When I got to AA back in June of '81, there were all sorts in the meetings. The "Old Timers." The ones with anywhere from 2 years on up. Then we had the '90 Day Wonders.' Over and over again. Then there were several that would make 9 or 10 months and disappear and return in 2 or 3 months.
I think what brought it home to me was Jerry G. He would get between 10months and 15 months and then be gone again. Well he disappeared again when I was about 4 years sober. He was found a week, maybe 2 later, dead behind a Ralph's grocery store. Seemed he had passed out by the dumpster and been run over by the garbage truck.
Now that really brought home to (other than my own death that I had experienced) how dangerous it was to even consider going back out.
There was a gal, that came through the Sober Living Women's Recovery House after I did. She too would keep going out. Moved all around Southern California but could never get more than 8 or 9 months. I happened to see her a few years ago. She was married, to a fellow in the military, they were here for about 6 months, and.............................she had over 13 years continuous in recovery.
So......................................the point of above is this, I have seen over the years folks go in and out, in and out, and some do not make it, however, I have seen many many more 'get it' further down the line.
There used to be a saying that I don't hear much any more:
"A belly full of booze and a head full of AA don't mix, and AA usually wins."
I still believe that to be true today.
I do feel that with the advent of the internet, the 'full blown' alcoholic feels they have more anonymity by going on line, and thus justifies their 'denial' maybe a bit longer. However, the other side of that coin is that a practicing alcoholic that is 'sick and tired' has more information and treatment readily available to them than I ever did.
97% Failure Rate??? No one will ever convince me of that!!!!!
J M H O
Love and hugs,
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 44
I find it hard to believe it's true...and to us it really doesn't make much difference...Check out U -yube yourself if your stomach is up for it and Google AA statistics..
No one seems to deny it..and I read some stuff how it was derived..but it gave me a headache....but if it was true..then I looked for the problemm..identified it..and the solution..
Apparantly the prevailing drop out rate alone in the first 90 days is 50% with about 25 % more by year one..so there alone is supposedly 75%..and by year 5 down to 3-5%...as I said all that stuff gave me a head ache..
certainly not helpful for someone with an alcohol problem.. reading stats...but stats are only stats..easily manipulated ..but easily reversed if we in AA who are successful take action
No one seems to deny it..and I read some stuff how it was derived..but it gave me a headache....but if it was true..then I looked for the problemm..identified it..and the solution..
Apparantly the prevailing drop out rate alone in the first 90 days is 50% with about 25 % more by year one..so there alone is supposedly 75%..and by year 5 down to 3-5%...as I said all that stuff gave me a head ache..
certainly not helpful for someone with an alcohol problem.. reading stats...but stats are only stats..easily manipulated ..but easily reversed if we in AA who are successful take action
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
There are programs that are non-profit and are not hocus pocus. In fact, they require no supernatural belief whatsoever.. very un-hocus pocus.
This is simply untrue, but people sure like throw it around at AA meetings... 
There ARE NO atheists in a fox hole...
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
Not personally, but they do exist:
Atheist in a Foxhole
Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers
Greydon Square - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Atheist in a Foxhole
Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers
Greydon Square - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 263
I've flirted at the fringes of AA in the past, been to a few meetings in very different places, from church rooms in affluent suburbs to the dimmest inner city basements, and I watched and learned. But not the right things, I'm sad to admit, because I was watching the people.
I don't know who I thought I was, but I began to classify people. I studied the dynamics of the different groups. Across the meetings I saw what I considered was a hard core old school who were on message and sober. But there were a myriad other classes of mainly younger people, like myself, who were essentially little more than tourists.
With these people there never was any engagement with AA, more of a curiosity, or even ticking off an item on some fashionable list, simply fodder for whimsical society chatter at the dinner table. These people may well be counted in the statistics, but the reality is they simply don't count. I can attest, with shame, that in all my visits to AA meetings back then I never once seriously considered getting sober for life.
I don't know who I thought I was, but I began to classify people. I studied the dynamics of the different groups. Across the meetings I saw what I considered was a hard core old school who were on message and sober. But there were a myriad other classes of mainly younger people, like myself, who were essentially little more than tourists.
With these people there never was any engagement with AA, more of a curiosity, or even ticking off an item on some fashionable list, simply fodder for whimsical society chatter at the dinner table. These people may well be counted in the statistics, but the reality is they simply don't count. I can attest, with shame, that in all my visits to AA meetings back then I never once seriously considered getting sober for life.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
Me too
thanks for the links DK - interesting stuff. I have to admit that if even one atheist has claimed to be in a foxhole - refutes any statement to the contrary. But I sense there is some positive correalation to the statement (somewhere between 0 and 1).
thanks for the links DK - interesting stuff. I have to admit that if even one atheist has claimed to be in a foxhole - refutes any statement to the contrary. But I sense there is some positive correalation to the statement (somewhere between 0 and 1).
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
We have this saying around these parts
Stay in the circle of AA lest you fall off.
The wording, half measures availed us nothing is right on.
I don't take sobriety lightly, I take it as as life or death situation. Seen far too many people go back out, watch their lives spiral out of control until, locked up, or covered up
I don't like those odds at all
Stay in the circle of AA lest you fall off.
The wording, half measures availed us nothing is right on.
I don't take sobriety lightly, I take it as as life or death situation. Seen far too many people go back out, watch their lives spiral out of control until, locked up, or covered up
I don't like those odds at all
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 44
I take my responsibility to the still suffering alcoholic VERY seriously...God gave me the Gift of sobriety...God gave me intelligence...God gave me good Health...God gave me the ability to Communicate..
It's up to me to use these gifts to help the still suffering and to pass the message on ...This gives me great peace..and the idea that in a small way I'm doing good by helping others..You got to give it away to get it.
It's up to me to use these gifts to help the still suffering and to pass the message on ...This gives me great peace..and the idea that in a small way I'm doing good by helping others..You got to give it away to get it.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
Statistics about AA's success are as foolish as statistics about how many Christians will make it to Heaven. The fact is ( and many will arugue this) there has been no empirical research regarding AA's succes. Even what the Big Book states has never been verified beyond the testimony of the first one hundred:
.
How do you quantify who really tried?????
There are alot of stats about people in AA, they often get mixed up with the program. The fellowship is quite different from the program. People like me were court ordered to AA. After 6 years of in and out I got it. Sorry if I contributed to a bad statistic but thanks for being there with a cup of coffee and a Big Book
Of alcoholics who came to A.A. (from 1935 to 1955) and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way, 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement. (Big Book, page xx.)
How do you quantify who really tried?????
There are alot of stats about people in AA, they often get mixed up with the program. The fellowship is quite different from the program. People like me were court ordered to AA. After 6 years of in and out I got it. Sorry if I contributed to a bad statistic but thanks for being there with a cup of coffee and a Big Book
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Hmmm.....
By My count AA has a 100% success rate.
Every time I go and work the program I stay Sober.....
Every Time I don't I drink...
I got hung up on statistics for awhile...
Now I'm hung up on staying sober
I hear at every meeting, "keep coming back, it works if you work it", that's been my experience.
If I concentrate on the Problem, The Problem increases, If I concentrate on the solution, the solution increases, but hey, that's just me, Wadda I know?
By My count AA has a 100% success rate.
Every time I go and work the program I stay Sober.....
Every Time I don't I drink...
I got hung up on statistics for awhile...
Now I'm hung up on staying sober
I hear at every meeting, "keep coming back, it works if you work it", that's been my experience.
If I concentrate on the Problem, The Problem increases, If I concentrate on the solution, the solution increases, but hey, that's just me, Wadda I know?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 263
How do you quantify who really tried?????
I speak of the UK, but the idea of deciding to not drink can appear to be a very easy choice to make... one day. I think this is because drinking heavily is such a socially expected choice for young people who at this point see older people around who generally don't drink heavily. Since these older people don't drink, there's this idea that alcohol abuse will, well, y'know, probably diminish naturally with age. And who cares anyway, yaaa yaaa party whoo whoo.
In my lifetime, before my very eyes, this ambivalence, this confusion, has become dramatically worse. In our collective subconscious the wider reality is beginning to dawn, resulting in a tangible societal alcoholic denial. As one: we don't have a problem, we could stop... if we wanted to. Which is b******, of course, but we don't care, so if we start to recover but don't then who the hell gives a damn?
All of this is me blowing, of course, some air. I can't prove a thing. So it's up to you, call it a hunch, but I have that old ache in the back of my left ankle that indicates the problems of serious drug, alcohol, gambling, sex and other addictions are worsening in society. Or it could be a touch of arthritis...
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
Originally Posted by doorknob 
There are programs that are non-profit and are not hocus pocus. In fact, they require no supernatural belief whatsoever.. very un-hocus pocus.
This is simply untrue, but people sure like throw it around at AA meetings...
This is simply untrue, but people sure like throw it around at AA meetings...
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