Statistics AA 97% Failure Rate?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,293
I really don't think it matters what percentage of people in AA get and stay sober. If it 3% or 30%, that's a lot of people!! Who knows what might of happened to these people if AA wasn't around. Lives have been saved through AA. There might not be a way to give a percentage of how many lives were saved, but that's not important. The fact is AA has worked for many. That's really the only thing that matters.
The other programs like RR might have similar results. The important point is that there are a lot of people that have been helped through the program they connected with.
The other programs like RR might have similar results. The important point is that there are a lot of people that have been helped through the program they connected with.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by Andante 
If this is a serious question and not just a rant for rhetorical effect, I think I can take a stab at answering it.
I think some longtime AA members are so immersed in the world of AA that they’ve lost perspective on how the organization can be perceived by the outside world.
When discussing routes to sobriety, there are a few AAs who are genuinely humble and open-minded enough to say "whatever works" and really mean it. However, a good many are unable to resist adding a passive-aggressive undertone to the effect of "but my way really is better," and then of course there are the vocal few who openly insist that AA is the only way.
It’s simple human nature to take pot shots at any institution around which there
is an air of smugness or holier-than-thou-ness. Are there individuals in AA who are anything but smug? Of course. Is AA as a whole entirely undeserving of being broad-brushed with this general perception? Not so much.
I think most AA-bashing -- including trotting out statistics "proving" its poor "success rate" -- is attributable to this sort of backlash against perceived smugness.
I think some longtime AA members are so immersed in the world of AA that they’ve lost perspective on how the organization can be perceived by the outside world.
When discussing routes to sobriety, there are a few AAs who are genuinely humble and open-minded enough to say "whatever works" and really mean it. However, a good many are unable to resist adding a passive-aggressive undertone to the effect of "but my way really is better," and then of course there are the vocal few who openly insist that AA is the only way.
It’s simple human nature to take pot shots at any institution around which there
is an air of smugness or holier-than-thou-ness. Are there individuals in AA who are anything but smug? Of course. Is AA as a whole entirely undeserving of being broad-brushed with this general perception? Not so much.
I think most AA-bashing -- including trotting out statistics "proving" its poor "success rate" -- is attributable to this sort of backlash against perceived smugness.
You can find such smugness among various AA groups as well.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Originally Posted by Andante
I think some longtime AA members are so immersed in the world of AA that they’ve lost perspective on how the organization can be perceived by the outside world....
When discussing routes to sobriety, there are a few AAs who are genuinely humble and open-minded enough to say "whatever works" and really mean it. However, a good many are unable to resist adding a passive-aggressive undertone to the effect of "but my way really is better," and then of course there are the vocal few who openly insist that AA is the only way.
When discussing routes to sobriety, there are a few AAs who are genuinely humble and open-minded enough to say "whatever works" and really mean it. However, a good many are unable to resist adding a passive-aggressive undertone to the effect of "but my way really is better," and then of course there are the vocal few who openly insist that AA is the only way.
I was very surprised to see the agreement with this view. I had to ask myself, where exactly are these people who are saying AA is the only way? Here on SR, or in Andante's personal face to face contacts? If they are in your personal experience, outside of this website, then I would address this attitude as it comes up, and with those specific individuals. This is not my experience, almost everyone in AA where I attend acknowledges that many get sober through treatment programs. Perhaps where you live things are much different.
My more pointed question is - do you find this attitude here in the SR forums? Perhaps I'm missing something because I don't see it. In fact what I see over and over again are people who claim that that they hear people from AA saying that "AA is the only way". Well, I would like to see the evidence for this. Could you please point to posts by this "vocal few" who say AA is the only way? I'm even going to PM you to be sure you don't miss this post. That's how much I want to see the evidence of what you are referring to. If nothing is posted I'll assume nothing was found.
I would also like to see the evidence for the "good many" who add a "passive aggressive undertone" of "our way is better". Could I also trouble you to point out some of this well? Thanks.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by Joe Nerv
Let it be known that that same smugness is present in the other sober groups also. This is not something that's an AA condition, it's a human condition.
7 billion people on the earth and I would find it hard to believe this is limited to people in recovery.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 2,051
Originally Posted by 2muchpain
I really don't think it matters what percentage of people in AA get and stay sober. If it 3% or 30%, that's a lot of people!! Who knows what might of happened to these people if AA wasn't around. Lives have been saved through AA. There might not be a way to give a percentage of how many lives were saved, but that's not important. The fact is AA has worked for many. That's really the only thing that matters.
The other programs like RR might have similar results. The important point is that there are a lot of people that have been helped through the program they connected with.
The other programs like RR might have similar results. The important point is that there are a lot of people that have been helped through the program they connected with.
Ultimately I think most people just sober up or moderate on their own.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,293
Originally Posted by awuh1
I was very surprised to see the agreement with this view. I had to ask myself, where exactly are these people who are saying AA is the only way? Here on SR, or in Andante's personal face to face contacts? If they are in your personal experience, outside of this website, then I would address this attitude as it comes up, and with those specific individuals. This is not my experience, almost everyone in AA where I attend acknowledges that many get sober through treatment programs. Perhaps where you live things are much different.
My more pointed question is - do you find this attitude here in the SR forums? Perhaps I'm missing something because I don't see it. In fact what I see over and over again are people who claim that that they hear people from AA saying that "AA is the only way". Well, I would like to see the evidence for this. Could you please point to posts by this "vocal few" who say AA is the only way? I'm even going to PM you to be sure you don't miss this post. That's how much I want to see the evidence of what you are referring to. If nothing is posted I'll assume nothing was found.
I would also like to see the evidence for the "good many" who add a "passive aggressive undertone" of "our way is better". Could I also trouble you to point out some of this well? Thanks.
My more pointed question is - do you find this attitude here in the SR forums? Perhaps I'm missing something because I don't see it. In fact what I see over and over again are people who claim that that they hear people from AA saying that "AA is the only way". Well, I would like to see the evidence for this. Could you please point to posts by this "vocal few" who say AA is the only way? I'm even going to PM you to be sure you don't miss this post. That's how much I want to see the evidence of what you are referring to. If nothing is posted I'll assume nothing was found.
I would also like to see the evidence for the "good many" who add a "passive aggressive undertone" of "our way is better". Could I also trouble you to point out some of this well? Thanks.
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
Originally Posted by awuh1
I was very surprised to see the agreement with this view. I had to ask myself, where exactly are these people who are saying AA is the only way? Here on SR, or in Andante's personal face to face contacts? If they are in your personal experience, outside of this website, then I would address this attitude as it comes up, and with those specific individuals. This is not my experience, almost everyone in AA where I attend acknowledges that many get sober through treatment programs. Perhaps where you live things are much different.
Freethinker
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by Joe Nerv
I'll agree that I don't see a whole lot, if any of that, on this forum, but I've seen/heard it at certain meetings. Thankfully very few, and those are the meetings I choose not to go to. Not to add fuel to the fire I'd rather extinguish, but there is a school of thought within the AA community that people who get sober without AA aren't "real" alcoholics. If you're a "real" alcoholic, as defined in the BB, then they believe that AA is the only solution. And they can be very vocal about it. This is not the opinion of AA. It's theirs, and it's the reason I feel these people can sometimes cause more harm than good.
My opinion of the recent Southern California Convention I attended was that it had a strongly Christian undertone, and even went so far as to recite the pledge of allegiance in the opening meeting. I am pretty sure that is not in the BB. These violations of the 10th tradition certainly are not attractive to all who may need the program. Which leads us back to the OP.
These forums are refreshingly open and willing to support a "many paths" approach.
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
Originally Posted by Joe Nerv
...there is a school of thought within the AA community that people who get sober without AA aren't "real" alcoholics. If you're a "real" alcoholic, as defined in the BB, then they believe that AA is the only solution...
(o:
NoelleR
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
I remember my sponsor's answer when I told him that the Steps were "suggested." He replied that they are "suggested" in the same way that, if you were to jump out of an airplane with a parachute, it is "suggested" that you pull the ripcord to save your life. He pointed out that it was "suggested" I practice the Twelve Steps, if I wanted to save my life.
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
I'll agree that I don't see a whole lot, if any of that, on this forum, but I've seen/heard it at certain meetings. Thankfully very few, and those are the meetings I choose not to go to. Not to add fuel to the fire I'd rather extinguish, but there is a school of thought within the AA community that people who get sober without AA aren't "real" alcoholics. If you're a "real" alcoholic, as defined in the BB, then they believe that AA is the only solution. And they can be very vocal about it. This is not the opinion of AA. It's theirs, and it's the reason I feel these people can sometimes cause more harm than good.
I think too that for some who strongly believe that it is more about lack of information rather than maliciousness. I knew that AA was not the only way because my godfather has over 3 decades clean and sober and never set foot in a 12 step program but let's face it: in many places AA is still the only game in town
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bklyn. NY
Posts: 1,859
Originally Posted by freshstart57
What is the original source of this? I think it satisfies awuh's search criteria. The only way? check. Passive aggessive? check.
If I tell you I have a pill that will help you with a headache, and I suggest you take it, does that mean I believe I have the only solution for that headache?
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
Originally Posted by freshstart57
What is the original source of this? I think it satisfies awuh's search criteria. The only way? check. Passive aggessive? check.
show me where aa tells anyone not to go to anywhere else for help ? yet the avrt website openly does ?
as far as i can see, you need a computer and money to pay for councilors etc with avrt so to me your avrt will only work for well off people and even then it will not promote harmony living as its clear what they say KEEP AWAY FROM RECOVERY GROUPS
of course avrt doesnt have any recovery groups of its own and i believe they used to have them and pulled out of them smart recovery went its own way or parted ways with avrt as smart believes in a group concept although i am no expert so i can be well wrong on this ?
but the more i have had a look at avrt the more i can see a controling type of concept were people have to rubbish aa and promote the avrt way
to me its ugly just as bad as some aa memebers who ram things down peoples throats i understand there passion for it but dont like there methods
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
"I remember my sponsor's answer when I told him that the Steps were "suggested." He replied that they are "suggested" in the same way that, if you were to jump out of an airplane with a parachute, it is "suggested" that you pull the ripcord to save your life. He pointed out that it was "suggested" I practice the Twelve Steps, if I wanted to save my life."
Actually, the steps, individually, are not suggested; the steps (all 12 of them) are suggested as 'A' program of recovery (as per pg 59 of AA's BB). Note, they are NOT suggested as 'the' program of recovery.
(o:
NoelleR
Actually, the steps, individually, are not suggested; the steps (all 12 of them) are suggested as 'A' program of recovery (as per pg 59 of AA's BB). Note, they are NOT suggested as 'the' program of recovery.
(o:
NoelleR
Life Health Prosperity
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Louisana
Posts: 6,752
Tomas, AA nor any other recovery method has ever had a 75% success rate. Addiction to chemical substances is very powerful and I'm just grateful that there are places like SR, AA, and any other organization that puts out the effort to help addicts like myself. Rootin for everyone and Merry Christmas to all. 
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Location: Pacific Coast
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Originally Posted by awuh1
My more pointed question is - do you find this attitude here in the SR forums? Perhaps I'm missing something because I don't see it. In fact what I see over and over again are people who claim that that they hear people from AA saying that "AA is the only way". Well, I would like to see the evidence for this. Could you please point to posts by this "vocal few" who say AA is the only way? I'm even going to PM you to be sure you don't miss this post. That's how much I want to see the evidence of what you are referring to. If nothing is posted I'll assume nothing was found.
Let’s say I combed through the entirety of the SR archives and couldn’t find a single trace of "smugness" or "AA is the only way" in any post about AA. Let’s say I was wrong.
So where does that leave us? What are YOUR answers to JoeNerv’s original questions:
Why do so many people feel they have to disprove the success of AA? Why is so important for some people to do their best to prove how it "doesn't" work? Does it serve their conscience well in some way?
I was only submitting for consideration one possible scenario based on my experience. I feel no obligation to rise to the defensive and dig through the archives so I can cite specific examples that support my perceptions — I’m just not that emotionally invested in it. Perhaps ask yourself why you seem to be?
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Thanks for your "example" Freshstart. It shows how some individuals can attribute negativity without there being evidence for it. If I remember correctly, the example of pulling the rip cord was made in reference to someone who is already participating in AA. At least the comment was made within this 12 step forum. I believe it was an example given to illustrate the importance of taking obvious and effective action, as opposed to inaction.
Suggesting a course of action that has worked for many hundreds of thousands of individuals, and left their lives far better that they could have ever imagined, is hardly a negative thing.
Passive aggressive? uncheck X2
Suggesting a course of action that has worked for many hundreds of thousands of individuals, and left their lives far better that they could have ever imagined, is hardly a negative thing.
Passive aggressive? uncheck X2
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