Steps 4 & 5 Simplified

[Tomas]

You need not concern yourself with Step five...If it's thorough and complete...One need not regurgitate a litany of misdeeds that are embarrassingly difficult...That admission is ONLY to SELF in step four..

In step 5 it's the NATURE of your wrongs...NOT the wrongs THEMSELVES...most alcoholics miss that point completely because their 5th step is NOT thorough..

The nature of your wrongs become very clear if you take a SEARCHING AND FEARLESS 4th step..outlining for SELF ONLY the proverbial laundry list.. That is the KEY to step 5...again the NATURE of your wrongs...and if thorough.. and you have convinced God and YOURSELF
...your admission... to another being... of the NATURE is very simple... FEAR..and LACK OF FAITH

We are interested ONLY in the bottom line...not the full Monty. There should be no dump trucks waiting..It's not necessary...if done THOROUGHLY.

I took my last 5th step now 30 years ago...its as relevant today as it was 30 years ago......5 opens the door to 6 through 9...direct action..10-11-12 become a way of living...it is the panacea to what was revealed in steps 4 and 5..as relevant today as 30 years ago..That's why the steps become a way of living...one day at a time.

Now LOOK at the wording of Step 4...Made a searching a fearless moral inventory of ourselves...It says NOTHING about revealing this inventory to others..does it.

Now LOOK at the wording of Step 5...Admitted to God, ourselves and another Human Being...the EXACT NATURE of our wrongs..

Don't obfuscate the issue with your laundry list..That's not necessary nor thorough...Meditate on that list..look for that fine thread of personality driven actions..and misdeeds...When you are thorough, only then will you will find that magical thread in that pile of dirt that belongs to you ONLY “We in AA don't collect others piles of dirt”...LOL.....ONLY the NATURE of your wrongs...and surprisingly... it is the same for all.. “After all we are all connected as humans”...FEAR. But that HAS to be realized to the depth of your soul... requiring a lot of searching..”That's why it's the Exact Nature..It's the root of all those misdeeds of step 4...It's like panning for gold...”got to go through a lot of stuff to find that golden nugget

So many of you, have your work cut out for you.. How do you know you have taken the step thoroughly...You'll know..Until that's done..the true sober personality can not develop, nor the new sober life begin..The promises can not be realized.

[Kallista]

If this worked for you, more power to you.

I agree with regarding the point of Step 5. The point of Step 5 is see the pattern in our behavior. Once we see the pattern, we can start working on correcting the pattern.

The Big Book specifically states that the 5th Step should be taken with the written 4th Step in front of us: "When we decide who is to hear our story, we waste no time. We have a written inventory and we are prepared for a long talk...We pocket our pride, and go to it, illuminating every twist of character, every dark cranny of the past." Alcoholics Anonymous, Fourth Edition, p. 75

For many members, it is very helpful to share that 4th step list with a sponsor or other person because another person can help them see the pattern. It also eliminates any secrets.

[Tomas]

Kallista..I appreciate your comments...First of all let's put the Big Book into context..I'ts a consensus of how the first 100 got sober and were stayng sober..It is a recipe book..Very useful when I came into the program..I devoured it..I thought it was autobiographical because of my close identification..It became a part of me..

I really feel that you are jumping to conclusions..from one statement to another making innacurate assumptions..The words of the 4th step and 5th step are very SIMPLE very EXPLICIT..With 8 years of architectural training..a good design keeps it simple...and deals with "elemental truth".. That's what is important...the exact words of the steps..Everything else open to interpretation... with 35 years of experience staying sober..the consensus could probably learn much from me.. What I need is the William Morris Agency for representation..The AA branch..LOL

One does not necessarily need to reveal themselves entirely to others unless one desires...bur NEVER keep secrets from yourself..To Thine own self be true.

[dgillz]

I recently posted the following on a thread entitled "step 5 scares me":

It was recently pointed out to me that people make too much out of this step.

Please notice my emphasis on exact nature.

For example, I stole money from my ex-employers to support my bad habits. In taking the 5th step, I do not have to relate juicy details of every incident where I did this, I just have to admit that I stole money. This is the "exact nature" of that wrong.

Similarly, a friend in AA was unfaithful to his wife. The particulars of with who, at what times, at what seedy motels do not matter.

Steps 8 and 9 get into this level of detail, but not step 5.

I agree the specifics should be written down and kept - you'll need them when you get to 8 and 9. Personally, I took my 5th with a lawyer. Anyone else (except a priest) could testify against me in court, so I wasn't going to have any of that! My sponsor knows most of it though.

[Kallista]

Originally Posted by Tomas

Kallista..I appreciate your comments...First of all let's put the Big Book into context..I'ts a consensus of how the first 100 got sober and were stayng sober..

And he 12 X 12 is a record of how several thousand more people did it, and it also suggests sharing the 4th step list. Tens of thousands of other AA members have done this step using their 4th step list.

The Big Book and the 12 X 12 remain THE texts for newcomers, however, and I try not to give advice on how to work the program unless its either out of the books or based on the experience of the majority of other members.

It is useful for a lot of people to use the 4th step list. If you don't feel the need to do it that way, then don't do that way.

The only specific instances that I recommend people withhold from their sponsor or trusted other during the 5th step are items which could get them arrested. Folks should have some time under their belt before they decide how to handle those instances.

[Tomas]

Absolutely not..You miss the central point..The question asked self.."why did I steal money..Greed..And why am I greedy..FEAR of not having enough..

You of course compensate in step 9...But you are forgiven in the eternal sense only when you have a sense of REMORSE from what you have done..."Blabbering" the particulars to others... does nothing..

[Tomas]

Use the 4th step list..or any list you want.. but don't go "babbering to others"about your transgressions.....that's not what the step says..Sure I referenced the 4th step list..It's all part of the process.. along with other material..The problem in many of the rooms is that they make such a big deal out of it.... The inference being telling newcomers that they must confess their dirt to some bozo in AA..

I'm sorry but that's the impression that is left to newcomers...and that's wrong..That's why people are afraid of the 4th and 5th..

It simply says made a searching and fearless moral inventory of self..The 5th..the ADMITANCE...of the NATURE..not specifics...and that requires a lot of self analysis in conjunction to what you came up with on your "4th step list"..but THAT is private material..used as a personal PROMPT to finding the EXACT NATURE OF YOUR WRONGS...again it goes beyond..a deeper level than specifics...It's journey to the fire pit of fear..coming out the othe side...of it is your ADMITTANCE..and the Admitance is fear.

[navysteve]

Not trying to add to the debate but this is what the Big Book says:

It we skip this vital step, we may not overcome drinking. Time after time newcomers have tried to keep to themselves certain facts about their lives. Trying to avoid this humbling experience, they have turned to easier methods. Almost invariably they got drunk.

Here is the kicker:

They took inventory all right, but hung on to some of the worst items in stock. They only thought they had lost their egoism and fear; they only thought they had humbled themselves. But they had not learned enough of humility, fearlessness and
honesty, in the sense we find it necessary, until they told someone else all their life story.

We have a written inventory and we are prepared for a long talk.

That sounds pretty cut and dry.

We pocket our pride and go to it, illuminating every
twist of character, every dark cranny of the past. Once
we have taken this step, withholding nothing, we are
delighted.

The Big Book does not say we have to tell someone in AA. We can use our Lawyer as was mentioned, our Minister or an AA member.


Here come some promises:

We can look the world in the eye. We can
be alone at perfect peace and ease. Our fears fall from
us. We begin to feel the nearness of our Creator. We
may have had certain spiritual beliefs, but now we begin
to have a spiritual experience. The feeling that
the drink problem has disappeared will often come
strongly. We feel we are on the Broad Highway,
walking hand in hand with the Spirit of the Universe.

And the forgotten part by many:

Returning home we find a place where we can be
quiet for an hour, carefully reviewing what we have
done. We thanked God from the bottom of our heart
that we know Him better. Taking this book down
from our shelf we turn to the page which contains the
twelve steps. Carefully reading the first five proposals
we ask if we have omitted anything, for we are building
an arch through which we shall walk a free man
at last. Is our work solid so far? Are the stones properly
in place? Have we skimped on the cement put
into the foundation?

I don't know, but the thought of being thorough seems very apparent to me.

[desertdonna]

I'm in agreement with you, Tomas. And thank you so much for what has resonated with me.

It's good to see you here.

Congrats on your many, many years of sobriety.

Donna

[MCH]

In my Big Book it says "We must be entirely honest with somebody if we expect to live long or happily in this world." I couldn't do that alone when I was new, I had to run the whole thing by an experienced someone to help me sort it out. Some of my stuff had never been in the light, and confessing it then was very cleansing for me, the beginning of actually going to the people I harmed. I'm grateful to the people who put up with my fumblings and yada, yada, yadas, they were and are the reason I'm alive today.

We're all different, we do this thing individually, together.

[SoberforME]

*Personally, I took my 5th with a lawyer.*

Can you take the 5th on a 5th if you do it with a lawyer?

I'm glad this was posted as I am getting into my 5th step as we speak.

Glad to hear from folks who have been sober for a long time.

[bballdad]

combined steps 4-9
they all got me to be honest with myself,God and others about my past deeds and defects
in one aspect or another

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Tomas

.."Blabbering" the particulars to others... does nothing..

Well I "blabbered" my 5th Step to my sponsor and it felt gooood.....

[FightingIrish]

My ES&H is limited to how I did the steps with my sponsor (which was our best interpretation of what the words directed us to do), not what others should do or not do. I can only attest to the fact that it worked for me, not that another way won't work for you. How would I possibly know that? *shrug*

[AW2486]

After doing these steps.. 4 - is who I am 5 - is sharing that with God and somebody else. That action broke down the barrier I had blocking me from the power. It opened the door to do the rest.

[Tomas]

..I don't quite respect the basis of your quotes..nothing there was at odds whatsoever with how I suggested to take the 4th and 5 steps. What is the point?..Are you just trying to be contentious about the veracity or accuracy of what I said?

Simply take a searching and fearless inventory hiding nothing..That means hiding nothing from SELF....The words are explicit..I need not have to spell out everything for you THINK before you speak or quote.."What does searching and fearless mean.?

Telling people your "life story" has nothing to do with your 5th step..

In fact most people's life story if they are spontaneous..changes almost week to week depending on how they feel and view themselves that moment in time..LOL.."It reveals How we view ourselves Today.

Admit to God...self and another human being THE EXACT NATURE of your wrongs..."The step IF meant to tell your life story.."it would have said so"..but that's not what it says..does it..You are picking out things in the Big Book and think you are connecting the dots...Your point seems to be..that you need to blabber all the transgressions that you found in the 4th step and that's simply not the case.

In fact when that was written in the Big Book, the 12 steps as we know it were not even around..So your point is not well taken

Whatever works for you or worked I could care less..I hope the post who spoke to his lawyer got a nice stiff fee for wasting his time..If nothing more constructive then an attempt of jolly good feel good moment..LOL..Legal issues are served not as inventory issues.

My post was for those who are reluctant or hesitant to take the step because they might have been under the wrong impression, from the choir, that they need reveal all their transgressions..simply not true...That's not what is in the words of those two respective steps

Treatment Centers have butchered and convoluted AA's 4th and 5th steps which has caused many of the problems and misinformation about these steps in the AA rooms just by association..Thank God I sobered before Treatment Centers

For those who will contend THIS point..I heard literally thousands of supposed 4th and 5th..from poor souls barely out of detox..but it keeps the centers in the black..and the patients busy.. with treatment plans...LOL

Now one final word about quotes..Some wiseguy will probably take the next to last quote and put it in his reply..in the little blue box and run with it..without the qualification of the LAST PARAGRAPH..Thus the danger AND QUESTIONABLE integrity of those, seemngly favored quoteboxes...Blue box quotes can be dangerously misleading..and a cheap shot as witnessed above by the moderator no less

For those who told their sponsors everything..and That worked for you..God Bless you..You walked a mile more than you had too.. It simply was not necessary in my experience.

[dgillz]

Originally Posted by SoberforME

*Personally, I took my 5th with a lawyer.*

Can you take the 5th on a 5th if you do it with a lawyer?

I'm glad this was posted as I am getting into my 5th step as we speak.

Glad to hear from folks who have been sober for a long time.

I might add the lawyer has been in AA for several years.

[FightingIrish]

So if the primary EXACT NATURE of my wrongs were something like, say, SOLIPSISM...then that's all I would have had to tell my sponsor?

Boy, that would have saved me about seven hours and the cost of Indian take-out.

[dgillz]

I don't know what SOLIPSISM is, but yes, that's all. Not how many times, with who, under what circumstances, etc.

And it doesn't have to be your sponsor!

"Another human being" is what the book says. I used a lawyer, but many use a priest/pastor/rabbi/imam,or a good trusted friend outside of AA.

[BackToSquareOne]

Almost all sins are born out of the 7 deadly sins : Pride, Envy, Gluttony, Lust, Anger, Greed and Sloth. I'm no expert on the steps but it is interesting to hear the different opinions on step 5.

[tomvlll]

Tomas, I find your comments very interesting and insightful and the more I think it through,the more I'm seeing it .

I think what are you saying is this. <correct me if I misunderstood>.

If a person stole money,Then the person should list that " I stole money ".
That person need not give all the details ,e.g," well,I saw a wallet sitting there and I...yadda yadda".

[dgillz]

Tomvlll,

I am not Tomas but here is my take on it.

The list you are referring to is initially made in the fourth, and it never needs to be shared with anyone at this point. It is vital that this list be detailed and hold nothing back, but nothing in step 5 says anything about sharing a list (despite some book excerpts that may seem to contradict this). All they need to tell on the fifth is "I stole money". This in the exact nature of the wrong.

IMHO, this is the way to go because a lot of people are very hesitant to tell the intimate details from their list to anyone for any reason. Tackling the fifth this way enables more people to take it, while at the same time is completely consistent with the wording of this step.

This list will be expanded upon in the 8th (made a list of all the people we have harmed....) and acted upon in the 9th (made direct amends wherever possible...).

By this time, (I am told - I am currently on step 8) most of us are more willing to be more open and share more details with sponsors, other AA friends, etc, especially as it relates to step 10. If you do a second round of 4th-9th steps, which is very common, it gets even easier to go through the whole process.

I don't want to sound like "Mr AA", I am not. But I did a half assed 4th and 5th and am redoing them now with a different sponsor in this manner. I feel the weight lifted off my shoulders, something I often hear others talk about but I had never experienced myself in 4 years in AA (with 4 relapses I might add).

To bottom line it this approach thru my sponsor got me unstuck out of a 3-1/2 year rut on steps 4 and 5.

If you feel more comfortable doing it a different way, go for it, the above is just my ES&H.

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Tomas

For those who told their sponsors everything..and That worked for you..God Bless you..You walked a mile more than you had too.. It simply was not necessary in my experience.

Well I never exactly told my sponse "everything" but I told him a lot. For me the exercise turned out to be a very important one because it helped me to start trusting people again, an element which was missing from my life. What can I say, I was brought up Catholic, confession is good for the soul they said .

I am not saying you don't present an interesting view point Tomas, but try not to be so presumtious and condescending will ya.

[stone]

Interesting...the 5th step is a sort of confession for some people and they want to get stuff out in the open, whereas I focused more on the 5th step illuminating my defects so that I would know what to work on...in other words "the nature of my wrongs".

The quotes Steve posted do indicate the telling of specifics but the actual wording of the step doesn't.

One of my defects is selfishness, it only takes a few specific examples to see that, the other thousand examples of when I have been selfish are not necessary.

I do think that getting some stuff off your chest can be good in itself though.

[Tazman53]

Just my take from my experience, both sides if one wishs to call it that make great points.

The BB spells out very well how to do steps 4 & 5, Here are a few quotes, even when doing step 4 it suggest counsel with others in certain areas can be helpful.

Step4

Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

God alone can judge our sex situation. Counsel with persons is often desirable, but we let God be the final judge.

My sponsor and I did discuss my sex ideal and as it says I let God be the final judge on it.

Step5

Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

This is perhaps difficult, especially discussing our defects with another person. We think we have done well enough in admitting these things to ourselves. There is doubt about that. In actual practice, we usually find a solitary self-appraisal insufficient. Many of us thought it necessary to go much further. We will be more reconciled to discussing ourselves with another person when we see good reasons why we should do so.

What sticks out to me here is if I share with another person "I am self centered" that just does not strike me as a "Discussion", it is more of a statement then anything else.

My sponsor told me the same thing I tell my sponsee's, "I do not want you to share names of people, places, institutions, or businesses, let's just discuss your inventory and what you have learned about your self." I know when I was doing my 5th with my sponsor there were some things I had in my inventory that I was incapable of really seeing my part in until my sponsor asked me some questions about a certain resentment. At first I thought the man was a genius, I have since found that when taking others through there 5th step that many times I am able to see things that they can not see because they are to close to the resentment emotionaly.

Time after time newcomers have tried to keep to themselves certain facts about their lives. Trying to avoid this humbling experience, they have turned to easier methods. Almost invariably they got drunk.

SECRETS!!!!!! I found in doing my 5th with my sponsor why the first thing he asked me was "Martin, tell me your deepest, darkest secret." It was the only thing that I had purposely left off of my inventory and I told him I had left it off my inventory, he just smiled.......... then I told him!!!!!! I like many others thought "He is going to throw me out of his house and never talk to me again!", well instead he looked at me and said "That is it?"!

That was the beginning of a new freedom for me, I had rid myself of 40 years of guilt and shame!!!! That OLD SECRET held no power over me any more, it was finally out along with many others that followed.

I found true freedom and myself in discussing my inventory with another human being, a human that understood and did not judge me, but instead loved me and shared with me how he had found a way to deal with the same or similar guilt, shame, resentment, etc.

I mentioned no names except of course my sponsors name because he was on my resentment list!!!! LOL

They took inventory all right, but hung on to some of the worst items in stock. They only thought they had lost their egoism and fear; they only thought they had humbled themselves. But they had not learned enough of humility, fearlessness and honesty, in the sense we find it necessary, until they told someone else all their life story.

"until they told someone else all their life story" I found true freedom by with holding nothing, it was all out there and the power that the secrets, fears, shame, guilt, etc. held were GONE!!!!

The inconsistency is made worse by the things he does on his sprees. Coming to his sense, he is revolted at certain episodes he vaguely remembers. These memories are a nightmare. He trembles to think someone might have observed him. As far as he can, he pushes these memories far inside himself. He hopes they will never see the light of day. He is under constant fear and tension, that makes for more drinking.

SECRETS!!!!! I have heard it said in the rooms that secrets kill many alcoholics because they hold power, once it is no longer a secret the power they hold is gone.

We must be entirely honest with somebody if we expect to live long or happily in this world. Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose the person or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step.

Why are we to "think well" about who we are to share our inventory with if it is nothing more then general statements about what we have learned of our selfs?

The rule is we must be hard on ourself, but always considerate of others.

If I was just doing my 5th in a general way with no detail at all I could have probably done my 5th with my mom, but I had much to rid myself of and generalization was not going to cut the mustard and gain me freedom!

We pocket our pride and go to it, illuminating every twist of character, every dark cranny of the past.

The above sure does not sound like we are just sharing what we have learned about our selfs. I became free after step 5.


Just wanted to add one thing, the steps/the program of AA as they are spelled out are very brief, but they are expanded upon in the BB way beyond a simple one liner, if they were not we would not have the first 164 pages of the BB, we would have a sheet of paper with the following:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.