Lord's Prayer

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Noticing a lot of threads about not being religious.

That being said, does your group close with the Lord's prayer?

We give the option of those who care to join in to say the Lord's prayer.

Thoughts and comments??

[CarolD]

How each group chooses it's format is a matter for that
specific group as voted in their GC.

My home group does close with the Lords Prayer
and yes...says ..."For those who would..
please join our circle we'll close with the Lords Prayer.

I have been next to members who did not
say the words but stood quietly
I've seen members continue to sit or leave

This has been true in all 3 of my home groups
D.C. Fl. and Ga.
I'm not aware of any comments on their choice
to not participate.

...I guess we're back to the never ending
discussion...is AA religious or spiritual.

By the time I started AA...I did not know or care
what they used to help me get and stay sober.


Last week...Mary...sober 34 years shared
"I'd have painted my butt red and run down the
street naked if thats what I had to do to quit"

I totally agree...

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Well,

I see people's point of few for saying the Lord's Prayer at a conclusion if, we're not religious program!

[CarolD]

What about the Serenity Prayer?

It's my experience that it's used more often
in meetings than the Lords Prayer.

Then of course...in doing Step work
some members use the Step prayers.

I'm not aware of a specific organized religion that
uses materials from other religions for their membership.

[doorknob]

Something need not be organized nor specific to be religious in nature.

The atheist & agnostic meeting I go to on Sundays closes with a few moments of silence. The daily noon meeting I sometimes attend closes with a prayer that I'm not familiar with.

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Originally Posted by CarolD

What about the Serenity Prayer?

I don't view the Sernity Prayer in association with any denomination.

Do you?

Looking at the preamble A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution.

That's not true by saying the Lord's Prayer, as it is a Christian prayer

[CarolD]

I'm no thologian but the Serenity Prayer we use was written
by a German minister ...Luthuren I think.

The Roman Catholic Church canonized St. Francis of Assisi
who penned the "Make me a channel" ...often used
by members in Step work.

And Yes...I do think AA draws from different religions.
And No...I don't mind any of them being used.

...I'm not going to their churches.
I am attending a fellowship of recovery.

Perhaps my opinions are swayed by the fact
I've belonged to 3 different religious sects
and none has harmed me.
I've never been either agnostic or atheist.

I quit my regular church attendance long ago
perferring to be in AA on Sunday morning.
So far...it's working well...

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Originally Posted by CarolD

I quit my regular church attendance long ago
perferring to be in AA on Sunday morning.
So far...it's working well...

same here

[Sugah]

I had a problem with the religious nature of the Lord's Prayer early on, until I read Emmet Fox. It was then that I could generalize the principles of the prayer and apply them to god as I understand god.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[lizw]

There's a local group here who closes with the Lord's prayer. I say it if I go and personally I would have said any damn thing they wanted me to say when I got sober. I just wanted the pain to stop! So I've never had a problem with it.

I have always thought the Serenity prayer is religous too because despite the fact that in recovery we only use the first part of it, the prayer (as a whole) goes on to talk about ' taking this sinful world as it is' and 'being happy with him in the next life' etc... I associate 'sin' and 'next life' with religon.

[SerenityGirl]

I always thought that it was good that AA says a higher power of our own understanding, so everyone would feel welcomed, no matter what their beliefs.

[Tommyh]

My f2f home group closes with the Lords Prayer

I do go to two online meetings a week and sometimes we close with this prayer....
God,keep coming back..AA-men

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Originally Posted by bballdad

My f2f home group closes with the Lords Prayer

I do go to two online meetings a week and sometimes we close with this prayer....
God,keep coming back..AA-men

[jimhere]

There a few things that bother me a hell of a lot more than saying a prayer. Such as the way we've ritualized our message.

I don't have a problem with any prayer. What I do have a problem with is all the holding hands and chanting "Keep coming back cause it works and your worth it!" or something like that. Prayers end in amen.

Or how about when we read the 9th Step promises, or as some call them "The 12 Promises," or the AA Promises?" At the end the reader reads "Are these extravagant promises?" And everyone else chants back in unison "We Think Not!" Geez, talk about dangling the carrot. We turn our program into something to "get."

Another thing that gets to me is when we do say The Our Father, and the leader starts of with "Who keeps us sober..." or "Whose Father?" That offends some people I know. Hell it offends me more than any religious aspect of the prayer. Either respect the prayer or don't say it. You don't approach something holy in a frivilous manner.

And one more thing: I have heard it said in meetings "I'm a recovering Catholic." I wonder if anyone has ever stopped to think how that might affect a newcomer or visitor who doesn't know that AA has no opinion on religion or any other outside issues. So some jackass spouting garbage like that gives them their first impression of AA by implying that AA has an opinion about the Catholic Church. Some members are actually devout practicing Catholics who love their Church.
Jim

[Barto]

One thing that gets me about the “Lord’s Prayer” is that I think we say it wrong in AA. I believe the correct translation is “…thou leadeth us not into temptation,” not “lead us not into temptation.” The way we say it, it's as if we are asking God not to lead us there. What kind of God would lead us into temptation? Not mine. This is Chuck C’s point of view anyway (after doing his research), and which I whole heartedly agree with.

[Tommyh]

right on Barto,I don`t care what the crowd says,I say you lead us not into temptation,you deliver us from evil too.

Jim mentioned the chanting after the prayer,I call it the chicken dance,and I don`t chicken dance.To me Amen means Amen,it don`t mean lets dance.

Jim also mentioned the chanting after the promises.I don`t do that either.I have on several occasions,said loudly,probably or I think so.I have been called a troublemaker for that.It gets their attention sometimes.The sheeple hate for someone to interrupt their rituals.

[Tazman53]

You know as long as AA did not say I had to go to this church, synagouge, mosque, temple, etc...... I did not care and to be honest still do not care if a prayer is said before or after a meeting.

I would be willing to bet money that if one went to an AA meeting in Turkey to a Turkish speaking meeting they say "Allah"!!!! Oh my GOD!!!!! If I hear the word ALLAH mentioned in an AA meeting does that mean I have to begin practicing the Islamic Faith?

What about AA in Isreal? Do you think they close with the Lords Prayer?

Boy I wonder what faith AA pushs in India???????? I mean there is only about 30-40 different faiths practiced there!!!!!


You know I had a choice when I went to AA:

1. Find a Power greater then myself that I understood that would help me solve my problems.
2. Keep thinking I was all powerful like I had been doing for the prior 40 years and die from alcoholism!

When I went to AA I wanted to get and stay sober, I did not give a rats patoot what type of prayer was said or not said before or after a meeting!!!! I was finished with finding every reason under the sun to not work the program of AA.

When I decided to get and stay sober using AA, I did not join a church or practice any faith and not one single person in a meeting ever told me "You have to be a _______(insert name the faith) in order to stay sober!!!!

The BB, my sponsor, the AA preamble, The 12 & 12, and the 12 Traditions all state explicitly that AA does not promote or support any sect or faith!!!!!!

I did not want to die just because some folks decided to say some prayer from some faith I did not believe in!!!! It is part of the LOVE & TOLERANCE spoken of in the BB.

I have taken an agnostic through the steps and he has over a year sober, I have held the hand of Jews, Athiest, & Agnostics as we all recited the Lords Prayer. Guess what? They were practicing the Love & Tolerance spoken of in the BB and they held my hand in a demonstration of the Unity of AA, not to indicate they were a Christian as we recited the Lords Prayer!

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Now how accurate the Bill W. movie was, I recall them standing at the end of a meeting when, Bill W. was in California. Seems they didn't say the Lord's prayer in the movie but, did say keep coming back.

Any one have a recall of how that, scene went in the movie?

[sugErspun]

Originally Posted by Sugah

I had a problem with the religious nature of the Lord's Prayer early on, until I read Emmet Fox. It was then that I could generalize the principles of the prayer and apply them to god as I understand god.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

Amen

Thank you Sugah. Me too

btw - my home group closes with the prayer. I say it, have no problem with it. And I am not allied with any religion either. Emmet Fox's dissertation on the Lord's Prayer in the book Sermon on the Mount really breaks it down well.

[Barto]

Originally Posted by bballdad

right on Barto,I don`t care what the crowd says,I say you lead us not into temptation,you deliver us from evil too.

Jim mentioned the chanting after the prayer,I call it the chicken dance,and I don`t chicken dance.To me Amen means Amen,it don`t mean lets dance.

Jim also mentioned the chanting after the promises.I don`t do that either.I have on several occasions,said loudly,probably or I think so.I have been called a troublemaker for that.It gets their attention sometimes.The sheeple hate for someone to interrupt their rituals.

I say basically the same thing (if I say it aloud at all): “… thou lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil …” It’s more of an affirmation that a request because I’m the one who needs to keep it straight. God doesn’t need me to pray to God in order for God to do God’s work.

[navysteve]

I am not religious in any sense of the word as we know it today. I do not believe in the Divinity of Jesus, but do subscribe to his teachings. I have no problem with any of the prayers associated with recovery. AA was founded by people who broke away from a Christian Group ( The Oxford Group) so it is only natural that some of the dogma would bleed over. Non-affiliation with religion has nothing to do with prayers being said ( IMHO). Here is an article about the serenity prayer:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/11/us/11prayer.html

There a few things that bother me a hell of a lot more than saying a prayer. Such as the way we've ritualized our message.

That drives me up a wall too JIm. I hate the chanting that goes on in AA meetings.

Another thing that gets to me is when we do say The Our Father, and the leader starts of with "Who keeps us sober..." or "Whose Father?" That offends some people I know. Hell it offends me more than any religious aspect of the prayer. Either respect the prayer or don't say it. You don't approach something holy in a frivilous manner.

I have heard this argument too, but I have to say that I find no offense in it at all. I think of it as AA adapting it to our philosophy. But I do realize that it touches a nerve with many of our formal religious folks, and that is a valid point for any Group to consider.

have heard it said in meetings "I'm a recovering Catholic."

That one definitely offends me as well. I was brought up Catholic, and although I do not believe in what the Church teaches I have great respect for what they have done for the world. They brought us Mother Teresa and ST Francis, St Ambrose, ST Augustine...

Some of the holiest people to grace the earth with their presence. To refer to catholocism as something to recover from show great disrespect to the organization. I notice today that when I read Catholic literature I see it with a new set of eyes

[kj3880]

I totally agree, Steve. I am a Catholic, and it really offends me when people say that. Why is it always OK to bash Catholicism? Imagine if someone were to say they were a recovering Christian or Jew or Baptist? I bet there would be something said to them. But people think they can say anything about Catholics. For me, Catholicism brought me to Christianity and I've always, even in times of active addiction, had a core faith that brought me back. I'm deeply grateful I was raised a Catholic.

They do say the Lord's Prayer here whilst holding hands. I hate holding hands with anyone for some reason. I don't mind the prayer. Just me. I don't know why.
KJ

[navysteve]

They do say the Lord's Prayer here whilst holding hands. I hate holding hands with anyone for some reason. I don't mind the prayer. Just me. I don't know why.

In Glen Burnie they announce in many meetings that they don't hold hands. I think its kinda funny that they take the time to tell people that. I miss the hell out of going to meetings in that part of Maryland however. I would trade that for the crap I hear every meeting I go to up here

[Barto]

Originally Posted by navysteve

...AA was founded by people who broke away from a Christian Group ( The Oxford Group) so it is only natural that some of the dogma would bleed over..."

If you want to hear about AA in the Oxford group from one of the first 40 AA members, and a damn good speaker, listen to this talk by Clarence Snyder. It is priceless. Thanks AW!

XA-Speakers - The lights are on!

[CAPTAINZING2000]

How long a piece is this?

It's late here. I'll try and listen at another time

thanks